Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

75 minute Top Cuts

Status
Not open for further replies.
To the above two posts, I don't think any of us are trying to say we ALWAYS need 75 minute cuts, but that we would like them when time permits.

At very least, I understand that there can be tight time schedules, especially with certain venues. Still, It would be nice if more TOs tried to make 75 minute cuts happen whenever possible. From my experience, most just do 60 no matter what.

i agree. but again, if venues are only open for a certain amount of time, we cant "plan" to have the event run right up to the time they close. if we did plan that way, then run into issues or matches that go past the 30 +3, then what? some venues are willing to bend their available time, but like our regional last year, some arent. we had to finish out top 2 match in a hotel room. did what we had to do but not they way we like to plan.

again i am all for the idea at my events providing we can and do have the time. sometimes there just isnt any alternative.
 
Are organizers allowed to announce 75-mins but then adjust and lower the time to 60-mins if unforeseen complications (such as a computer crash) arise?
 
Yeah, glad I'm not the only one that thinks this. It's even worse in Australia, where a lot of the time our swiss is best of 3 45 minutes... 60 minutes isn't enough for 3 games, let alone 45!
 
Are organizers allowed to announce 75-mins but then adjust and lower the time to 60-mins if unforeseen complications (such as a computer crash) arise?

It's unprofessional, so I try not to do it. You get more complaints doing that than you do by announcing one time limit and sticking to it.
 
Are organizers allowed to announce 75-mins but then adjust and lower the time to 60-mins if unforeseen complications (such as a computer crash) arise?
People complained because something like that happened during Prague Cup. Everybody came expecting a 60 minutes tops and learned at the last moment that it was finally 45 minutes.
 
45 is just an absolute joke and insults the game. At that point, you're better off with one game. 60 minutes is similar.
 
If there were no Judges and TOs to run the tournaments, there would be no tournaments to play in.*
If you could get a significant percentage of Judges/TOs to go along with this, then perhaps it would work out well.

The big obstacles would be the tournament venue owners, and people who take their children to events but don't play themselves and would now be expected to stay and do nothing for X minutes longer if their children are in the top cut.**


*And yes, I know, the corollary is if the tournaments are crappy, there will be less people to play in the tournaments.
**Yes, I know, I would prefer they play too
 
45 is just an absolute joke and insults the game. At that point, you're better off with one game. 60 minutes is similar.

The point of 45 2/3 is to have one single legitimate game. One game that is not donk. One competitive game. I can see using 45 2/3 for Swiss rounds to force the one legitimate game that might not happen in 30+3.

60 2/3 is (in theory) supposed to have two "legitimate" games, though that might not always be the case. The third or SD game is there to break a tie, and pretty much nothing else.

75 2/3 or 90 2/3 is designed to 3 "legitimate" games.

Understand the point of each time limit, and adjust your deck and your playstyle to match what each time limit is designed to create.
 
The point of 45 2/3 is to have one single legitimate game. One game that is not donk. One competitive game. I can see using 45 2/3 for Swiss rounds to force the one legitimate game that might not happen in 30+3.

One single legitimate game is meaningless in a 2/3 series. I'll explain why. The problem with 45m 2/3 is you can actually win the only legitimate game, yet lose the series. Picture a player playing a slower deck. It can be a Chandelure deck, a Gothitelle deck, The Truth, Durant, Gengar...a ton of slow decks exist. This deck can go on to win a lengthy 30 or so minute Game 1.

Game 2, however, is a different story. The fast deck might get an early lead, and manage to draw their 4th prize as time expires. The slow deck may have had a chance to ultimately win had time not expired, but we'll never know.

Now move to Game 3, where the fast deck adds insult to injury. The fast deck now won a game on time and is in a Sudden Death match to send one player home. The player with the slow deck is now at an overwhelming disadvantage to a fast deck (such as Tornadus/Zekrom/Pachirisu/Shaymin.)

What ends up happening is that the lower the time frames, the fewer viable decks. Decks like Gothitelle, Chandelure, The Truth, Durant & Gengar all are punished in 60 minute 2/3. Reduce this time from 60 to 45 minutes and these decks actually become unviable decks. Expand the time limits to 75m and the amount of strong decks literally doubles.

Allow me to further illustrate the problem with 45m with another example. You may be under the impression that 45m works for slow decks because they can win a lengthy Game 1 and take the series as a 1-0 winner. Not only does this defeat the purpose of match play, but it's actually worse than a one game series!

Example?
It's 45-minute match play. Player A is playing The Truth. Player B is playing Zekrom/Tornadus/Pachirisu/Shaymin. This match strongly favors The Truth. The game becomes a long, drawn-out game that the Zekrom player realizes he cannot win. He could sit there and play the long game and use up nearly all of the time, losing the series 0-1. He doesn't have to do that, though. Instead, all he has to do is concede halfway throughout the match to allow enough time to get 4-prizes in Game 2. And if he does that and wins Game 2, he has an overwhelming advantage in Sudden Death. Again, the winner of the match can end up winning 0 full games. All the Zekrom player has to do is win either Game 1 or 2 and he will usually win the series in a sudden death Game 3.

The player playing The Truth is helpless in these positions. If he loses Game 1, the Zekrom player will never concede Game 2, and simply play the match out, making the player playing The Truth "earn the win." By the time The Truth has won Game 2, we'll be playing a Sudden Death Game 3. Basically, if the Zekrom player wins either Game 1 OR Game 2, he will almost always win the series. The Truth has to win two games, Zekrom will basically have to win one.
 
Jason, that has less to do with time limits than it has to do with concessions (which I personally do not like).
 
it is always possible to come up with a speculated strategy that takes advantage of any particular timed game structure. Consequently the existance of such a strategy is not sufficient reason to damn a timed game structure. 45 minute best of three is worse than 60 minute best of three but is better than 30 minute single game.

I would much prefer those extra 15 minutes that you propose to add to the top cut rounds to be converted into one or more extra swiss rounds.
 
I think, before we start discussing about 75-minute top cuts, there should be a rule established that top cut matches with b-o-3 have to be at least 60 min and that the 45-min should only be used for swiss rounds.

Everyone who was at Prague Cup knows what happened - results got completely mixed up since almost every game in top cut was decided by timeout and many games could have ended differently with proper play. I still can't understand why a two-day-tournament wasn't able to manage time properly... and why they didn't cut to 16 rather than 32 if there really were such issues - would still be better than making 45-minutes matches that weren't announced before.


As for 75-min, as a player who both likes to play slow decks and often takes time to think for his turns, of course I like the idea. But on the other side, 60 minutes often is enough in this format. Of course, if you have some intense Chandelure vs CaKE or whatever match, you aren't finished in 60 min if you need 3 games. The problem is, that at one-day-events, the tournament will take longer and many stores want to close as soon as possible.

For important two-day events, such as Nationals, Worlds (where we already had 75-min top cuts in some years iirc), ECC etc, 75 min would be really great. First, because top cut starts in the morning and there's enough time for the extension, and second, these are once-a-year events where especially the top cut matches are very important and shouldn't be decided by timeout or sudden death.
 
Announcong that the top cut will be 75 min and then having to change it is a little like announcing 2 out of 3 top cut and then having to change to one game top cut matches. Its really not going to be popular.

The other issue with venues is a bigger problem for me. We have one "gaming" store in La Crosse. This store only allows us to run events on Sundays, and is only open open Sunday from noon to 5pm. Now imagine that we have to run a minimum of 30 min registration. Then lets say 5 rounds follow. 40 minutes per round would be really good. So if all goes well its 4pm and the store closes in an hour, but we still have the top 4 to run...

We have since made changes to get away from this venue but this is a real situation that many of us are facing on a regular basis. The 15 to 45 minutes that would be added on may not seem like much but in certain situations it can be huge.
 
Announcong that the top cut will be 75 min and then having to change it is a little like announcing 2 out of 3 top cut and then having to change to one game top cut matches. Its really not going to be popular.

The other issue with venues is a bigger problem for me. We have one "gaming" store in La Crosse. This store only allows us to run events on Sundays, and is only open open Sunday from noon to 5pm. Now imagine that we have to run a minimum of 30 min registration. Then lets say 5 rounds follow. 40 minutes per round would be really good. So if all goes well its 4pm and the store closes in an hour, but we still have the top 4 to run...

We have since made changes to get away from this venue but this is a real situation that many of us are facing on a regular basis. The 15 to 45 minutes that would be added on may not seem like much but in certain situations it can be huge.
Again, I feel like we are all focusing a bit too much on the all-or-nothing, and not enough on the when time permits. At that venue, you obviously won't be able to have a 75-min top cut. That's understandable. But at many venues, 75 minute would work perfectly.

I'm just a little disappointed more TOs won't even consider a 75 minute top cut when appropriate.
 
Example?
It's 45-minute match play. Player A is playing The Truth. Player B is playing Zekrom/Tornadus/Pachirisu/Shaymin. This match strongly favors The Truth. The game becomes a long, drawn-out game that the Zekrom player realizes he cannot win. He could sit there and play the long game and use up nearly all of the time, losing the series 0-1. He doesn't have to do that, though. Instead, all he has to do is concede halfway throughout the match to allow enough time to get 4-prizes in Game 2. And if he does that and wins Game 2, he has an overwhelming advantage in Sudden Death. Again, the winner of the match can end up winning 0 full games. All the Zekrom player has to do is win either Game 1 or 2 and he will usually win the series in a sudden death Game 3.

The player playing The Truth is helpless in these positions. If he loses Game 1, the Zekrom player will never concede Game 2, and simply play the match out, making the player playing The Truth "earn the win." By the time The Truth has won Game 2, we'll be playing a Sudden Death Game 3. Basically, if the Zekrom player wins either Game 1 OR Game 2, he will almost always win the series. The Truth has to win two games, Zekrom will basically have to win one.

This example is completely spot on. Slow decks must go 2-0, and sometimes would win 2-0 but still lose game 2 only because of time as in Jason's first example.
Honestly, 75 minutes probably won't fix this completely, though it would help. I'd love to see 90 minutes at Nats and Worlds which would truly put all decks on even footing in top cut I think.
 
3 cities in, and I don't think that 60 versus 75 minutes would make a difference at all.

Say what you want about "helping the playerbase" and other such pandering nonsense, but I have worked over countless events, and unless the players are intentionally playing slow, frankly, 2/3 in 60 minutes does not seem to be a huge issue versus 75 minutes, except to certain decks, which the initial poster here must favor to make this post.

Until someone shows me that 60 minutes is indeed better overall, and not just for a few sqeaky wheel players, then I think 60 minutes should be the accepted norm.

I will agree that 45 minutes is simply unacceptable and should be avoided at all costs, but a WHOLE nother topic on that one.

When, as an organizer, you have over 90% of your matches finish within the 2/3 + 3 timeframe, fully adjudicated, then you have to wonder if we are dealing with a phantom problem here.

My opinion, we are dealing with a phantom problem here.

Vince
 
The truth of the matter is that not every top cut series is going to need 75 min Vince. In fact most of them probably will not. But that doesn't change Ness' point at all. The fact of the matter is that if you change even one outcome with 45 minute top vs 75 then you've totally changed the outcome of the event ... and affected it's legitimacy.

You also have to keep in mind that the players adapt to the folks running events (and no that’s not a good thing either). If everyone knows that you run 45 min cut rounds then the serious players aren’t going to run the slower decks. And right there you’ve created a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will never see the need because the players have done their best to win within the limits you’ve imposed.

I’ve got to add, I’m so sick and tired of it feeling like the PTO are always being negative about suggestions here no matter how positively they are suggested. We all know that not every suggestion is possible. There are probably unintended consequences for a huge amount of the suggestions made. But it really feels to me like the game is stuck in a rut event wise. I was really glad to see the shakeups with points and regionals this season. I hope that the folks in charge are willing to try other things out too.
 
And I love how every player takes shots at PTOs and TOs running the events that they are only in this for the cash. Trust me, a lot better ways for a lot of us to make money than running these events. Most of us long-timers would have given this up a long time ago if it was just dollars and cents.

Now, VandyGrad...being one of the FIRST PTOs to jump on the 2-day Regional, to frankly run Regionals in a manner that makes them much more than just a tournament event, and being an organizer that takes a lot of pride in running quality events by every standard - take a look at my history, and my dedication to change in events...

Then, frankly, you can (going to retract myself here...although the comment is deserved)

I am not going to go for the "woe is me, just try to put yourself in my shoes and run an event" organizer drabble. I run events because they have to be run correctly, and when I stepped into the game, THEY WEREN'T (even at the highest levels). I want to run events, therefore I do.

Why don't I run 75 minutes best of 3??? Because UNTIL they mandate that the maximum time that one game can take is 30 minutes, then I feel that 75 minutes allows for a bestardization of the time allowed for swiss round games, by allowing a 40+ minute game, which is not permitted at this time.

I will be the FIRST to jump on the 75 minute best of 3 the MOMENT I can call time in game 1 after 30 minutes. But I can't. The rules don't let me. So, instead, we have the 60 minute time frame (and yes, I still know and HATE that the games can go to 60 minutes), but I haven't seen that sort of problem around here.

Maybe it is because I have a stable of great judges right now who know my philosophies, and frankly carry out my events better than almost any time in my PTO history. That is TRUE by the way.

Maybe it is because the judges in this area have NO TROUBLE in calling out players for unsporting conduct, and aren't bullied by players no matter their stature in the game, in a way that keeps the event civil, and sets a tone for sporting play.

I think before we dive after the "more time is better" solution, we had better look at all of its ramifications, and determine if it is indeed the proper solution.

Is that a better analysis???

Not saying it is right...just saying it is mine.

Vince
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top