Ampharos Complicates Things

[Pinsir52]

First, I posted this in 'Ask the Rules Team,' then realized they probably wouldn't answer me because Platinum hasn't officially been released yet.

I was testing a new deck against my friend who was playing Dusknoir LV X. I KO'ed it while I had Amphros PT out, and we honestly had no clue what to do. Same thing happend a few turns later with Gengar...

Has there been any kind of ruling, or any opinions on this sort of situation? Since he had damage counters on his pokes, would they not be allowed to use their powers? Or, are the powers technically being used AFTER they're KO'ed? I honestly have no idea...

Let me know if you do...Thanks.

-The Pinsir-

 

[PokePop]

The damage counters are still there.
They're not removed until the Pokemon is removed. By that time, they're no longer in play.
They can't use their powers.

 

[Pinsir52]

Ahhh. Thank you for clearing this up, 'Pop!

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

What I can't wait to see is Amphy vs coming into play powers.

For example, Player a has Amphrose PL on the bench and uses Torterra SF's Land Shake on his turn. Player B benches an Uxie on his turn. What happens? Uxie takes 20 due to Land Shake but does the coming into play power happen before or after that? Does player B get to choose?

 

[amphy#1]

Soon as Uxie comes into play it takes damage from Land Shake, then you have the choice (You may draw up to 7 cards) to activate Uxie's power which you can't because it has damage on it. If player A didn't Land Shake last turn, then player B can use Uxie's power because it won't take damage as soon as it comes out.

 

[yoyofsho16]

If I play a deck at states that has Torterra SF and Ampharos, I will be shocked in the least.

 

[amphy#1]

Yes, I know there won't be one at states, but he did ask for the ruleing on it therefore I answered. The only things Amphy can't stop are Broken Time Space, Uxie, Rare candy, and other coming into play powers unfortunetly.

 

[DarkJake]

I'm pretty sure the taking damage and using the power happen simultaneously, which means the player gets to choose if he wants to use the power or not.

 

[PokePop]

Yes, I know there won't be one at states, but he did ask for the ruleing on it therefore I answered. The only things Amphy can't stop are Broken Time Space, Uxie, Rare candy, and other coming into play powers unfortunetly.

Oh really?
These are all news to me.
Source of your rulings?

 

[DragonairMaster8]

There havent been such things as "coming into play powers" since 2005

 

[amphy#1]

If player A uses Tortera's Land Shake and player B plays uxie then they don't have a chance to use the power! Oh yeah, the source of my ruling is the Tortera with the Land Shake attack. It says it on the card and since uxie has to come out before the power goes off then the power does not work!

 

[PokePop]

My point is, that we'll have to get a ruling on the timing of that, power first or damage first.
There is no ruling on this yet, unless you can point to a Japanese ruling.

 

[amphy#1]

Until there is a ruling you should play it as it is on the card. That is in the (American) rules.

 

[SD PokeMom]

Until there is a ruling you should play it as it is on the card. That is in the (American) rules.

um...'pop is part of the rules team. i'm pretty sure that when he says there hasn't been a ruling as of yet, there _hasn't been a ruling_.

'mom

 

[amphy#1]

I see what you're saying now, as they both happen at the same time it would need a special ruling. Sorry about that.

 

[poke_master2008]

My opinion on the matter.

Player A uses Land Shake and has an amphy (PT) in play.
Player B draws and benchs a Uxie (LA).
Uxie takes 2 damage counters due to Land Shake because Land Shake is activated right when a basic is played.
Since Amphy is in play and Uxie has damage counters on it, Uxie cant use Set-Up.


A different senario. Assume Miasma Valley is only :grass: pokemon.

Player A plays Miasma Valley.
Player A benchs Uxie (While opponent has an amphy in play).
Player A would then get to choose which effect to activate first as the stadium is Player A's and not Player B's.


As far as i see it your opponent's effects > your effects on your turn and ur effects > opponent's effects on his/her turn (also depends on the effect but most of the time). The only time i see "Coming into play effects" being able to use is if you get to choose when the effect kicks in. (Based on Lopunny LA vs. Poison)

 

[Articjedi]

Actually, I've always known it as, "if you're the owner of the card, and several effects take place at the same time, you get to pick the order in which they happen." Therefore, you'd pick uxie's power to trigger first, then you get the damage counters. There was an old ruling for in between turns effects where you would have a gold berry and a pokemon with 10 hp left that's poisoned. Under the rules, the owner of the pokemon got to pick, so anyone in their right mind would make the gold berry trigger first, then the poison. A similar ruling also took place with Milotic's Healing Shower power with a Dark Ampharos in play.

Q. Say my opponent has Dark Ampharos, and I use Milotic with "Healing Shower". Can I have Healing Shower remove the damage AFTER Dark Ampharos' "Darkest Impulse" places a counter on Milotic?
A. Healing Shower and Darkest Impulse happen at the same time. So the player controlling Milotic would decide which effect to apply first. (Mar 3, 2005 PUI Rules Team)

 

[Chairman Kaga]

These are relevant to your interests:

Q: 相手の場にポケボディー「ダメージバインド｣を持つデンリュウがいるとき、手札からトゲキッスを出し進化させ、スタジアム「ギンガ団のアジト｣の効果でダメージカウンターを2個のせました。この場合、手札から進化させたとき1回使えるトゲキッスのポケパワー「てんのめぐみ｣を使うことはできますか？

A: いいえ、できません。
ポケパワーの宣言をする前に、スタジアム「ギンガ団のアジト｣でダメージカウンターをのせるため、トゲキッスはデンリュウのポケボディー「ダメージバインド」の対象となり、ポケパワーを使うことはできません。
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Q: While my opponent has Ampharos with the Poke-BODY "Damage Bind" in play, I play Togekiss from my hand and evolve, and 2 damage counters are placed due to the effect of the "Galactic HQ" Stadium. In this case, when I'm evolving from my hand, can I use Togekiss' "Serene Grace" Poke-POWER?

A: No, this isn't possible.
"Galactic HQ" places its 2 damage counters before you can declare the use of the Poke-POWER. Togekiss becomes affected by Ampharos' "Damage Bind" Poke-BODY, and thus cannot use its Poke-POWER.

Remember, there are no "coming into play" powers anymore, but rather powers that you can declare immediately after their cards enter play. It is, however, a separate declared action. Effects like "Galactic HQ" are triggered effects that would have to be fully resolved as part of the action of bringing the card into play, which would immediately trigger "Damage Bind" before you can take your next action of declaring the power.

Q: デンリュウのポケボディー「ダメージバインド」がはたらいているとき、相手のワザのダメージで、自分のバトル場のヨノワールLV.Xがきぜつしました。この場合、ヨノワールLV.Xのポケパワー「エクトプラズマ」を使うことはできますか？

A: いいえ、できません。
ヨノワールLV.Xのポケパワー「エクトプラズマ」は、ポケモンのワザを受けた後、ヨノワールLV.XにHP以上のダメージカウンターがのり、HPが0になったときに使えるポケパワーですが、デンリュウのポケボディー「ダメージバインド」の効果がはたらき、ヨノワールLV.Xはポケパワーを使うことができません。
また、きぜつ判定は、それらダメージの計算・効果の処理をすべて終えた後行います。
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Q: While Ampharos' "Damage Bind" Poke-BODY is in effect, the active Dusknoir LV.X is Knocked Out by damage from an opponent's attack. Is it possible to use Dusknoir LV.X's Poke-POWER "Ectoplasm" in this case?

A: No, this isn't possible.
Dusknoir LV.X's Poke-POWER "Ectoplasm" is a Poke-POWER which can be used after receiving damage from an opponent's attack, when its HP becomes 0. The effect of Ampharos' "Damage Bind" Poke-BODY then triggers, and thus Dusknoir LV.X cannot use its Poke-POWER.
The judgment of a Knock Out is done after completing all processing of damage and effects from an attack.

Per the rule book, damage is calculated and applied first, then attack effects, then Knock Out resolution (and anything triggering from that). Since Dusknoir receives the damage counters first, that immediately causes it to be affected by Damage Bind, so you are unable to declare the use of Ectoplasm when the opportunity arises (when the Knock Out is resolved),

Actually, I've always known it as, "if you're the owner of the card, and several effects take place at the same time, you get to pick the order in which they happen."

This metarule is not applicable here because the two events (the play of the card and the use of the Power) are not simultaneous. Playing the card opens a window for the Power to be used as your next action. The use of the Power is a separate (optional) action, not a part of the original card play. Thus, all effects triggering off playing the card will resolve first, before you are allowed to move on to declaring the Power.

 

[NoPoke]

Actually, I've always known it as, "if you're the owner of the card, and several effects take place at the same time, you get to pick the order in which they happen." Therefore, you'd pick uxie's power to trigger first, then you get the damage counters. There was an old ruling for in between turns effects where you would have a gold berry and a pokemon with 10 hp left that's poisoned. Under the rules, the owner of the pokemon got to pick, so anyone in their right mind would make the gold berry trigger first, then the poison. A similar ruling also took place with Milotic's Healing Shower power with a Dark Ampharos in play.

Q. Say my opponent has Dark Ampharos, and I use Milotic with "Healing Shower". Can I have Healing Shower remove the damage AFTER Dark Ampharos' "Darkest Impulse" places a counter on Milotic?
A. Healing Shower and Darkest Impulse happen at the same time. So the player controlling Milotic would decide which effect to apply first. (Mar 3, 2005 PUI Rules Team)

I may be wrong but I think that we would get a different rulling today for the Dark Ampharos - Milotic interaction. There would be no controling player's choice and Darkest Impulse would resolve ahead of Healing Shower. Some things that we though happened instantly or simultaneously appear to have timing introduced by reinterpreting the card text as setting up a conditional test rather than indicating a point in time. [I'm still struggling to understand Dusknoir LvX LOL ]

Text that we currently have:
When you play this pokemon from your hand ..., you may....

Should be interpreted as:
Immediately after you play this pokemon from your hand ..., you may....

Galactic HQ says Whenever on the English card. Whenever is probably different to when. Whenever is usually plural whilst when typically refers to a single unrepeating event in time. Regarding Torterra's Land Shake attack , I wish it said whenever and not when just like Galactic HQ. When suggests that only the first basic will pick up two damage counters and I don't think this is what is intended.

 

[Everwind]

So how would it work if you had Ampy and Aerodactyl on your bench and your opponent wanted to say cosmic power assuming the Claydol had no damage counters on it?