Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Bad Gamesmanship- This needs to stop NOW.

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've seen one example of gamesmanship this weekend that makes me sick. "New" players that claim to not know what they are doing, and request patience. SotG being such a factor for new players, it's easy to let them slowplay and not even realize it until it's too late.

They take a prize, and then shut down. They start reading every one of their cards, and stall out. I've seen it a lot in central Florida, and had it done to me on Saturday. Time was called, and I requested a judge, who had been watching our game, to give a time extension. He excused the "new" player from slow playing because he was "new". I appealed to the Head Judge, and she supported this decision. This is gamesmanship at it's worst. Newer players lying and using their "new" status to their advantage.
 
ApachePrime said:
I've seen one example of gamesmanship this weekend that makes me sick. "New" players that claim to not know what they are doing, and request patience. SotG being such a factor for new players, it's easy to let them slowplay and not even realize it until it's too late.

They take a prize, and then shut down. They start reading every one of their cards, and stall out. I've seen it a lot in central Florida, and had it done to me on Saturday. Time was called, and I requested a judge, who had been watching our game, to give a time extension. He excused the "new" player from slow playing because he was "new". I appealed to the Head Judge, and she supported this decision. This is gamesmanship at it's worst. Newer players lying and using their "new" status to their advantage.
Click to expand...

If the 1st time you asked for a judge was when time was called, that one is on you. Sorry, but judges walking around watching multiple tables may not always pick up on one player playing slowly. They need to be alerted to it earlier in the match. To simply say to you (general you) "I believe you more than the other player at the end of the game only" seems a bit unrealistic and biased.

Now, you mentioned a judge had been watching your game. How long where they there? Did you request a judge for pace of play issues? If the answers are yes and the judge still denies a time extention, maybe the player played just fast enough. I dont know, I wasnt there. Was there any verbal prompts for the newer player to make a move? If no, then they probably played just fast enough.

I would question a player reading their own cards more than one reading the oppo's cards. Usually, when you show up to a tourney, unless someone has given them a deck, they have played their own deck before and should know what the cards do.

Keith
 
You have 40 min time to play who's better, if you can't finish in that time you should make sure that you are leading when the time is up (not stalling, but choose some riskd (like Warp Point to KO an easy from bench even if it would be better to damage the active etc..) I have ended only 1 game to time in whole 2.5 years i've been playing, that was in States (30 minuts), i was playing Wailord/Cresselia (with 4 SSUs etc, so taking prizes from me was hard, so games were long) My opponent was playing Blissey/Claydol and he was playing slowly as usual (he doesnt wan't to make misplays.) When the time was up i had only 1 prize left and he had 6, so nobody can't say the game was won only because of time... The story was for realize that the games that ar 40 minutes? You should play faster yourselfs if your opponent is playing slowly (don't read stalling... It's diffrent thing, staller want's the time to come, slow guy wants more of it to make decicions).

The Kingdra thing, ''miscounting'' the energys in discard pile, it sound pretty similar what i did in Wolrds 2008, i was using Dusknoir DP as an transaltion, but there was no Dusknoir in my deck, i was trying to get advantage, but not break the rules. I've got DQd and it's OK if rules says that trying to get unfair advantage is place for DQ. Still i think that also these ''smaller'' things like turning an dice or drawing extra cards. I think that they should also end to the DQ every time, if judge is able to prove or have a feeling about that it wasn't an accident, the player that means to break the rules and cheats is much bigger thing than a player that didn't want to break the rules and cheated.

- Rasmus M. ~The guy with Dusknoir.
 
Lawman said:
If the 1st time you asked for a judge was when time was called, that one is on you. Sorry, but judges walking around watching multiple tables may not always pick up on one player playing slowly. They need to be alerted to it earlier in the match. To simply say to you (general you) "I believe you more than the other player at the end of the game only" seems a bit unrealistic and biased.

Now, you mentioned a judge had been watching your game. How long where they there? Did you request a judge for pace of play issues? If the answers are yes and the judge still denies a time extention, maybe the player played just fast enough. I dont know, I wasnt there. Was there any verbal prompts for the newer player to make a move? If no, then they probably played just fast enough.

I would question a player reading their own cards more than one reading the oppo's cards. Usually, when you show up to a tourney, unless someone has given them a deck, they have played their own deck before and should know what the cards do.

Keith
Click to expand...

The specific judge was judging for his first time. He watched our game, agreed with me that the opponent was playing slow, and when time was called neither he nor the head judge would give an extension. The round also was started before my opponent was done with his shuffle, which ate more time. I have no doubt in my mind that this guy was stalling, and I don't need confirmation of that. I'm simply pointing out that this is a problem, and people need to be aware of it. Do not let SotG blind you to a "new" players stalling and slowplaying.

He was reading his own cards, and none of mine. There's no question he knew what he was doing, as he was very familiar with the procedure when time is called. He also timed out 3 other games that day. So like I said, I'm not asking for approval of the happening, I'm just warning people to keep an eye out for it, as it definitely falls under gamesmanship.
 
ApachePrime, I can see your point. I once got told that because my opponent had a reputation as a slow player, that he was justified in playing slower than other players.

No judge should EVER use the excuse that new players, or known slow players are justified to play slowly. Any judge who makes that comment should be impeached!

Now, like the scripture says, there's a time for playing slow, and a time to refrain from playing slow. :thumb: Pre-releases are a time for playing slow because EVERYONE is learning the new cards and premier points are not in play.
 
Lesson learned. If you think your opponent is taking to long, first kindly ask them if they could speed it up. Many times someone won't be trying to stall, but they will get stuck on an action/decision and take far longer than they meant to go through with it. If they keep playing slow, call a judge over and ask them to watch for slow play.

Now, there is a difference between slow play, and taking a little extra time to go through a complicated action. I personally don't mind my opponent taking a little extra time on a complex play, as long as they return the favor to me. People who want to take the extra time to go through such a move as to avoid a misplay, and then won't return the favor when you need a little extra time to think are the ones that show poor gamesmanship. :nonono:

Yes, I've had people take extra time to go through a move, and then call a judge to watch ME for slow play. :mad: Scumbags....
 
ApachePrime said:
I've seen one example of gamesmanship this weekend that makes me sick. "New" players that claim to not know what they are doing, and request patience. SotG being such a factor for new players, it's easy to let them slowplay and not even realize it until it's too late.

They take a prize, and then shut down. They start reading every one of their cards, and stall out. I've seen it a lot in central Florida, and had it done to me on Saturday. Time was called, and I requested a judge, who had been watching our game, to give a time extension. He excused the "new" player from slow playing because he was "new". I appealed to the Head Judge, and she supported this decision. This is gamesmanship at it's worst. Newer players lying and using their "new" status to their advantage.
Click to expand...

apache how old was the person that you were battling
 
An older gentleman, his Granddaughter was playing in Juniors. But I've also seen other players at other tournaments do it, but this is the first time it has happened to me personally.
 
I know the reason behind the original post, and I do appreciate that the thread is important, and relevant. While these things are happening is when they should be dealt with.

Let's just say for the purposes of this thread that I know about the problem, but NO ONE - ABSOLUTELY NO ONE has come forward with some evidence at the time of the problems in question. You really have no idea how frustrating that is. I'm sure that had those players decided to come to any of the judges in Ontario at the time of the problems, and not complaining here, there would have been something done about things. Don't you think people are influenced not to go to certain events due to perceived problems? Don't you think other people wonder why some events aren't quite as large attendance? If the players that are complained about weren't decent players to begin with, would this thread have been started in the first place? So how much of this is the truth, and how much is ..... oh I don't know the right word here to explain things without causing offense. I suppose the closest I can come to would maybe be ... how much of this is truth, and how much could possibly be a result of a little bit of envy? I guess all of us would like to think at one point or another we'd like to get away with something small that makes the difference in a big way in something. But if no one comes forward at the time of the problem, how can anyone be expected to find the truth? Hard to say. I would hope that any outright cheating would be noticed, reported, and dealt with. I know if I had my way, those types of persons would be long gone. Help us judges to make good informed decisions. Accusations after the fact does no good.

In any case Clear, thanks for coming and winning the last event, even with your reservations about gamesmanship. You are a good player. No doubt, and you've gotten better control over the last while, but don't let things like this fester within you. Deal with it at the time, then move on. You'll feel better about things when you do.
 
Last edited:
ApachePrime said:
I've seen one example of gamesmanship this weekend that makes me sick. "New" players that claim to not know what they are doing, and request patience. SotG being such a factor for new players, it's easy to let them slowplay and not even realize it until it's too late.
Click to expand...

Sorry you didn't get the call. One of our locals two seasons ago, relatively new with kids in the game, INSISTED he be allowed time ad infinitum to think and even dressed me down for asking him politely to take his turn timely. I explained that we all need to allow the opponent time to play. Eventually, I called the judge. I got two extensions!

Really, we need to tell 'new' players, " a good player learns to make good decisions " at a lively pace. We were " all new once and had to take our lumps when we had to guess at the best choice " in order to keep pace. "You need to do this too until you get better".

When I called the judge, he said, "Finally!" apparently players were complaining about Mr. I'm New So Let Me Be Slow You Insensitive Expert - between rounds! He was relieved someone called him on this guy during a match.

Which brings me to this comment:

P_A said:
While these things are happening is when they should be dealt with.

Let's just say for the purposes of this thread that I know about the problem, but NO ONE - ABSOLUTELY NO ONE has come forward with some evidence at the time of the problems in question. You really have no idea how frustrating that is.
Click to expand...

Someone does know, oh yes my brother.

Hang it all players! If it bugs you enough to bring it up on the Gym, man-up (or woman-up) and bring it up at the event, um, yah, during the match. If the judge doesn't get it (we're all human), and on appeal the HJ doesn't get it, then report it properly to the TO and PUI afterward!

Can't get fixed here, can get fixed there, but not if you participate in keeping the issue secret. Not to put to much point on that comment towards any one person, please. However, in general, this is a good opportunity to say it to everyone: be prepared to call the judge with gamesmanship and little 'gamebreaking' misplays. Don't be silent no matter how much you are concerned about peers or the judge.
 
Last edited:
bulbasnore said:
Someone does know, oh yes my brother.

Hang it all players! If it bugs you enough to bring it up on the Gym, man-up (or woman-up) and bring it up at the event, um, yah, during the match. If the judge doesn't get it (we're all human), and on appeal the HJ doesn't get it, then report it properly to the TO and PUI afterward!

Can't get fixed here, can get fixed there, but not if you participate in keeping the issue secret. Not to put to much point on that comment towards any one person, please. However, in general, this is a good opportunity to say it to everyone: be prepared to call the judge with gamesmanship and little 'gamebreaking' misplays. Don't be silent no matter how much you are concerned about peers or the judge.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, we are with you on this. Couldn't have said it any better.
 
yep. i'd dare say NOTHING frustrates a judge/TO more than hearing *afterwards* about an 'issue' at their event...when there's not a damned thing we can do about it other than make mental notes about player(s) to watch in the future.

please folks: bring up the issue right then and there, so we can handle it....not as a 'why wasn't anything DONE about this' in your tourney writeup. we can't take action if we don't know.

'mom
 
Who knows why the issue wasn't reported during the exact instant in which it happened. 9/11 would not have happened had certain issues been reported and correlated in a timely fashion.

If a player feels a judge's decision or non-action was wrong, this is CERTAINLY a valid forum for that player to rant his/her frustrations. Futhermore, that player might not be interested in getting some desired decision, but more interested in opening a public discussion about "perceived" problems.

I hear too many PTOs/Judges in this forum scold players for exposing issues that happened on their watch. PTOs/Judges should welcome such comments from their "customers" and express a desire to address/fix those concerns.

PTOs/Judges need to have a more "customer service" oriented attitude IMO. Expect complaints and deal with them more tactfully rather say "there's not a damn thing we can do about it."
 
Last edited:
@SteveP: If you are going to quote someone, at least get it right! :mad: SD 'Mom said that bringing up the issue too late or on the boards is at a time WHEN there isn't a "damned" thing that can be done.

You have judged before, you know we cannot change a result once it is entered into the computer, the players have signed the slip and THEN the player realizes they got "screwed". The only time we can FIX a result is if the result was entered into the computer incorrectly AND it is brought to our attention IMMEDIATELY, not 2+ rds later.

Look, "we" as in PTOs/Judges do welcome the opportunity (at least I do) to let players discuss issues. I do take umbrage at your reference to a judge's "non action" w/o explanation. How can I as a judge be justified in giving a time extention simply bc when time is called, the LOSING player complains that the oppo stalled/slowed down their pace towards the end when WE (Judges) were not ALERTED to any SLOW PLAY accusations BEFORE time was called! Now, if it is a top cut match being table judged, then either the judge felt the pace was sufficient OR the player never complained before then. But, you can come on here after every weekend of sanctioned tourney play and you will find a report where the complaint of stalling/slow play/needed 1 more turn to win comes up.

Keith
 
When they bring it up after the fact there is nothing a judge can do about it. Also the valid forum would be to report it to the TO and PUI. No one here can do anything about it.
 
Lawman, In this specific instance another judge(Who was judging for his first time ALONE in Masters) was watching my match and even supported me when I asked my opponent to speed up. The issue was reported, and even taken up to the PTO.

I'm not asking for a call reversal here. I want the players to know that this problem is occurring and to keep an eye out for it.

I have judged here in Central Florida and run into this very issue in Seniors. I know it's a hard call to make, and I know that if it isn't brought to a judges attention early it can't be acted upon. I was under the impression that the judge that was watching was aware of the issue, as he heard and acknowledged me telling my opponent that his turns are taking too long.

He acted like he had no idea what was going on when I asked for the head judge, and told her I had neither said anything nor asked for his attention, when I had done both.

As I said though, I want players to be aware of this sickening example of gamesmanship.
 
Keith, non-action is perhaps a reference to situations where a no-call happens, like in basketball when an obvious foul is ignored at the game-winning shot. Often, Pokemon judges are no different - they prefer the players to determine the outcome. Not necessarily a bad thing, but water-cooler-discussable nonetheless.

Regarding the "not a damm thing" quote, I'm referring to the tone of the comment, not the content. A more tactiful approach would've been, "Dang, I wish you would've made us aware when it happened. Tell me what happened and we'll watch for it in the future." A slight change in the tone of the post and "good customer service" is achieved.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

evil psyduck said:
When they bring it up after the fact there is nothing a judge can do about it. Also the valid forum would be to report it to the TO and PUI. No one here can do anything about it.
Click to expand...
Yes and No. I get plenty of ideas for how to become a better judge/professor when I read about issues here. I suspect other judges/professors feel the same.
 
Last edited:
Why is people being so rude? I played at cities last Sunday and two of my oppents cursed through the whole match and kept lieing about how much damage he could do for turn. I am not an expired player and someone did that on me. I ask the judge about it and my opponent lied about the whole thing. Is there any to aroud these.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top