Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Balancing out the First Turn

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Call me crazy...

Didn't we have rules back in the Ex Era (RS-HP)?
Didn't those rules say...you could play trainers first turn, but not supportors. (At one point I don't think the person going first even got to draw [I might be wrong and thinking of MTG on that second part])...

Just saying, why fix what ain't broke.

Turn 1 Trainers, but not Supporters or Stadiums worked fine in the past. Removing Rare Candy from the equation IMO makes it even better.
 
Last season, heck, earlier this season, people wanted to go second because second player could play a rare candy on their first turn and possibly donk the first player.

Now that the second player cannot rare candy on their first turn, the balance shifted back to the first player who can naturally evolve first.

The whole balance seems to hinge on the the concept of evolving first.

Cards like Spiritomb AR / Phione MD allowed the first player to evolve on of their bench first. Pokemon with attacks like Ascension can evolve themselves on the first turn. Helix and Dome fossils from Arceus and MD could evolve if you attached an energy to them.

Right now the format is absent of any of these types of cards.

Honestly, I've heard mixed comments about an 'extended' format in Pokemon but if we had access to some of the more supportive cards from older sets, players probably wouldn't be having as many problems with the new rules. Players could run Pachirisu from GE if they didn't draw into a Pokemon Collector. They could run a Spiritomb AR to help them evolve their benched Magnemite/basic on the first turn and block Pokemon Catchers early game.

I know an Extended format isn't that likely for Pokemon, but Magic has a new 'base set' each year that reprints some older cards that would be useful for newer decks. We've seen something kind of like that with Call of Legends, but I feel TPCi could really alleviate some of the issues with the game if they'd dip a little further back and reprint a few really helpful cards from years before.
 
stage two decks need some love from PCL. Spiritomb would be great right now if Vileplume wasn't also in the format.

I'd love to have Chaos Gym back. It would give players such a headache and Psyduck would be happy.
 
Eh, I think maybe Basic Pokemon need less love: that strikes me as the real problem. Well, non-Evolving Basic Pokemon.
 
Eh, I think maybe Basic Pokemon need less love: that strikes me as the real problem. Well, non-Evolving Basic Pokemon.

While true, Basic pokemon aren't the big factor with the stupid first turn rules we have right now. It's all about stage 1's getting to evolve first and take over the game just because they guessed right on the coinflip. I miss the days when skill played a lot bigger part in the game and the first turn coinflip wasn't the deciding factor in 70% of games.

FIX THE RULE THAT YOU BROKE, POKEMON!
 
Small and doable thing to correct the in-balance would be
The person who goes first, doesn't draw a card on there first turn.

I know that half the time this might not change anything because they play PONT or something. But seeing one less card is a distinct disadvantage.

I doubt that the 70/30 advantage would move to 50/50, but it would drop that 70/30 advantage down somewhat.
 
Here's a simple idea:

Player #1 has finished his 1st turn. Before Player #2 draws his 1st card he may, at his option, shuffle his hand into his deck and draw 7 cards. (All Pokemon in play remain in play.) Then he draws his 1st card. That gives Player #2 a much higher probability of getting a Collector, and gives him a free recovery if he was hit by a Judge (or other disruption) before his first turn.
 
Personally, I think it would be better to have your opponent draw one of his prizes when you ko a pokemon. Then the one who draws all his prizes first loses the game.
 
walrus: My response was to the post directly above mine, stating that Stage 2 Pokemon needed more love. Just making sure that was apparent. Second I get contradictory messages about what people are really worried about. If you're worried about Stage 1 Pokemon... this is kind of their thing. Stage 2 Pokemon are by design meant to either be a turn slower or require something like Pokemon Breeder or Rare Candy to merely match the speed of a Stage 1. The issue then isn't the first turn rules, but the power level of the current crop of popular Stage 1 Pokemon. Someone has to be allowed to Evolve first unless you want to radically alter the game with a "simultaneous turn". Feel free to clarify your point because I'll be honest, I am not entirely understanding it.

Oh, and TPC is trying to "fix" the first turn rules, but they only "broke" it by designing the game: the first/second problem has always been a problem. No previous version of the rule has ever "fixed it", though some have seemed more effective than others. Still as we saw with Sableye, cards are designed with whatever the game's rules at the time are in mind, and changing them can have unexpected consequences, so past changes often worked... for a short time. Then people learn to play around them.

Slow Deck: Based on past experience, missing that opening draw is annoying but rarely a big deal. Pokemon just has too much draw and search power for it to be that vital to a well made deck. If it does work, it will most definitely be short term unless I am mistaken and all the "problem" decks are far more delicate than I realized.

Arctic Jedi: Interesting, it sounds a bit like Shields in Duel Masters. At the same time, I never much cared for "rewarding losing".
 
Otaku, don't think of it as "rewarding losing". Think of it more as "balancing winning".
 
but I feel TPCi could really alleviate some of the issues with the game if they'd dip a little further back and reprint a few really helpful cards from years before.

Yeah, like Warp Point (which was inherently FAR AND ABOVE WAY more fair than Pokemon Catcher) and Broken Time Space as well.

Just bringing back Warp Point instead of Catcher would have been the way to go IMO. Warp Point allowed for more finesse and gave both players almost an equal chance of having a good game.

---------- Post added 08/30/2011 at 09:51 AM ----------

Call me crazy...

Didn't we have rules back in the Ex Era (RS-HP)?
Didn't those rules say...you could play trainers first turn, but not supporters.

Turn 1 Trainers, but not Supporters or Stadiums worked fine in the past. Removing Rare Candy from the equation IMO makes it even better.

I don't think you are crazy, seems like a very good and easy to implement rule change to me. :thumb:
 
I think Vaporeon said this in a different thread, so I'll restate it here. This is by far the best idea I've heard to balance it:

The player going first has a normal turn, but doesn't draw a card. The player going second can evolve but can't attack. Then, the game works as it does now from there.

I added the don't draw a card part, because I think that balances it a little more. This also prevents a lot of the types of donks we saw last format, although it doesn't remove Zekrom/Pachi/Tyrogue. Not drawing removed the topdeck donks though.

Since we're getting a little off-topic anyway, these are some other good ideas mentioned in this thread here or elsewhere:

1. Like Articjedi said, when your Pokemon is KO'd you draw a prize. This helps eliminate dead draw and helps the losing player get back in it. Although it also does make cards like N a little weaker...

2. OPTIONAL MULLIGAN

3. Give us Rare Candy back, but give it the same restriction as before - the card can't be used on the first turn of the game. Just print that at the top of the card.


Those things would balance the game in general but each also helps balance the first turn rules I stated a little as well.
 
I just don't see how Broken Time-Space is balanced to begin with, nor do I see how it would make our current situation better. In the case of Warp Point, I understand that had it been reprinted instead of Pokemon Catcher, it might have been better for the game. Personally not convinced: I just think having Warp Point would be better for the game: it's a good, solid utility card. If they want it to make sense as an Item, just rename it "Warp Tiles". XD

Getting back to BTS, its a Stadium and thus can be used first turn. So... how does that solve anything? Going back to the old rules, you then need brutal donk decks in the format to make going second not seem like an advantage. Lose lose. 8-X

untitled: Does the first turn draw for player one really matter that much in this format? I ask that because we want this rule change to be as simple as possible, both for the ease of implementation and because if we make it too complex, its just going to be unbalanced again in a format or two. That just seems to be what happens.

Altering Rare Candy as you said would certainly make going first unappealing. It'd make going second an almost auto win for Stage 1 and Stage 2 decks, though. >.> Insta-stage 2 needs more of a drawback than "I played an Item!". I would love to know if a Supporter with the old Rare Candy effect (probably with the "no first turn" clause added) would be balanced. Second turn (of the game) you can't bust out a big Stage 1/2 without having to forgo your Supporter usage, and your opponent has already had a turn to set-up and even attack.

You also left out upping the minimum required starting Pokemon, that is if you open with less than two Pokemon, its now a mulligan (instead of opening with zero Pokemon).

Mostly I think if we can figure out some form of optional Mulligan, that would be the easiest, most efficient route, or the "mulligan for less than two". Those are "new" to the game. A lot of the other options have been tried.

And failed.
 
Upping the minimum of starters would make for way too many mulligans and more bad starts, because that leaves less non-basic cards in your hand.

As I already said, Rare Candy should come back with the first turn rules I already posted. When going 2nd you can Candy stuff but you can't attack with it. Now how is that in any way unbalanced. If they don't change the first turn rules, then just make it "If this is your first turn, you can't play this card."

The first turn draw wouldn't be required for the rule change I suggested to work, no. But I honestly think it would be easier to explain. "You can't evolve if you didn't draw a card at the beginning of your turn." That's an easy way for players to remember. They just have to remember not to draw a card on the first turn. Then from there they remember they can't evolve. Otherwise, they have to remember, "I can attack this turn but I can't evolve next turn I can evolve though but my opponent can evolve first but he can't attack yet."
 
Since you've already pointed out a stupid mistake I made recently, I am going to ask for some clarification on your points I don't understand.

Upping the minimum of starters would make for way too many mulligans and more bad starts, because that leaves less non-basic cards in your hand.

I think upping the minimum Pokemon required to avoid a mulligan will definitely increase the number of mulligans, but why will it result in more bad starts? Part of the problem we are facing now is the risk of being donked, and having to scramble to get more Basic Pokemon to avoid that. Much of the time its not even going to matter, or is everyone pretty much starting with a single Pokemon? Having one less card in hand versus never starting with a solo Pokemon? Are you saying because if you would have started with a single Pokemon and been risking a donk. You now need to search for one less Pokemon. I don't really see how this is making it a "bad" start.


As I already said, Rare Candy should come back with the first turn rules I already posted. When going 2nd you can Candy stuff but you can't attack with it. Now how is that in any way unbalanced. If they don't change the first turn rules, then just make it "If this is your first turn, you can't play this card."

The structure of your post was such that I thought that bringing Rare Candy back was "just another suggestion" or were you suggesting every action in your post be taken, together? Plus... wouldn't the rules you mention also prevent the first turn player from attacking? Man, these are way too confusing for me. How is a small child supposed to learn them?:confused: Unlike games where you really can't attack first turn, Pokemon has many attacks that are more like "effects" of monsters in those other games. Attacks that help set-up.

Nixing first/second turn attacks is going to really alter card creation at TPC, unless we want even more useless opening Pokemon.

The first turn draw wouldn't be required for the rule change I suggested to work, no. But I honestly think it would be easier to explain. "You can't evolve if you didn't draw a card at the beginning of your turn." That's an easy way for players to remember. They just have to remember not to draw a card on the first turn. Then from there they remember they can't evolve. Otherwise, they have to remember, "I can attack this turn but I can't evolve next turn I can evolve though but my opponent can evolve first but he can't attack yet."

Yeah this is where I really got lost. Instead of remembering "I can't Evolve my first turn", you add an extra rule as a reminder? A rule that won't stay consistent going second? Remember as it stands now its "I can do anything I normally can do on my first turn, except Evolve my Pokemon." and that applies to both players. Or have I embarrassingly forgotten something? :redface: Your version now creates confusion since most people they play will Evolve through Rare Candy second turn. I guess that is easier if we use that more complicated "no attacks and add Rare Candy" rule but... seriously this is just getting to be a mess.

Plus I still don't think the re-errata'd Rare Candy would be all that balanced. Yeah, you're preventing one specific instance of abuse. Now what about all the others? Judging by what has already happened, the designers were getting annoyed that players seemed to think they could build decks where key Stage 2 Pokemon were a 2-1-2 (and that was the cautious build in case one was Prized!). Late game someone will still be able to pop a Stage 2 into play in a single turn... that isn't right. It isn't balanced. Unless we restrict draw/search to Yu-Gi-Oh levels so that its actually a challenge to get the needed three cards into hand all in the same turn. Even with all the rules modifications, you still risk Ability spam second turn.
 
In the case of Warp Point, I understand that had it been reprinted instead of Pokemon Catcher, it might have been better for the game. Personally not convinced: I just think having Warp Point would be better for the game: it's a good, solid utility card. If they want it to make sense as an Item, just rename it "Warp Tiles". XD

Getting back to BTS, its a Stadium and thus can be used first turn. So... how does that solve anything? Going back to the old rules, you then need brutal donk decks in the format to make going second not seem like an advantage. Lose lose. 8-X

You also left out upping the minimum required starting Pokemon, that is if you open with less than two Pokemon, its now a mulligan (instead of opening with zero Pokemon).

Mostly I think if we can figure out some form of optional Mulligan, that would be the easiest, most efficient route, or the "mulligan for less than two".

Glad someone agrees with me about Warp Point, it's like the forgotten card already and it hasn't even been gone that long :lol:

Warp Point certainly afforded an opportunity for more strategy in the game: when to use it, when not to, who to send up based on who your opponent sent up, etc. It was inherently fair, you had to switch but so did your opponent, can't be more fair than that.

Catcher is going to change the "character" of the game into almost bullying. The strong will abuse the weak. I don't think that was, or is, the "spirit" of Pokemon.

I always saw BTS as leveling the playing field. Sure you get to evolve quickly, but so does your opponent next turn so it was even/fair for both. Not to mention it relied less on Trainers/Supporters to get to higher evolutions.

But, I really like your idea of needing to have AT LEAST two basics to start the game, I hadn't thought of that one. :biggrin: No more T1 donks and each player would at least have a fighting chance at a good game. :thumb:
 
Glad someone agrees with me about Warp Point, it's like the forgotten card already and it hasn't even been gone that long :lol:

Warp Point certainly afforded an opportunity for more strategy in the game: when to use it, when not to, who to send up based on who your opponent sent up, etc. It was inherently fair, you had to switch but so did your opponent, can't be more fair than that.

Catcher is going to change the "character" of the game into almost bullying. The strong will abuse the weak. I don't think that was, or is, the "spirit" of Pokemon.

I always saw BTS as leveling the playing field. Sure you get to evolve quickly, but so does your opponent next turn so it was even/fair for both. Not to mention it relied less on Trainers/Supporters to get to higher evolutions.

But, I really like your idea of needing to have AT LEAST two basics to start the game, I hadn't thought of that one. :biggrin: No more T1 donks and each player would at least have a fighting chance at a good game. :thumb:

Opening hand of Zekrom, Zekrom, Dual Ball, Dual Ball, Lightning, Lightning, Seeker. Unlikely, but above average odds on flips needed (3/4), so still possible. Just make that "a LOT *LESS* donks" (I'm assuming unown dark, pachi, shaymin here, for the record)

Besides the me being mean thing, though, you're entirely right. Forcing two basics would be GREAT for the game.
 
Besides the me being mean thing, though, you're entirely right. Forcing two basics would be GREAT for the game.

Wish I could take credit for that fantastic idea of needing two basics to start the game but it was really Otaku, he (or she?) should get the credit :biggrin:
 
Wish I could take credit for that fantastic idea of needing two basics to start the game but it was really Otaku, he (or she?) should get the credit :biggrin:

I know it was otaku, that part of my post was a reply to his/her/its ideas.
 
For the sake of reference (and so no one feels the need to keep doing triple pronouns), Otaku is a guy. If you check out Pojo, a five year old picture of him is displayed by his articles. ;)

I also am not the originator of the "let's just require two basic Pokemon to start" rule, though I think I brought it up first in this thread. Like adding the optional mulligan, it's been suggested time and again every time we hit one of these unpleasant spells in the game.

I think its important to note that none of the past changes have really, truly worked... which is why they were abandoned. I think the most logical way to proceed is to try something new and/or avoid changes that needlessly complicate the game because it is an established pattern that TPC is going to try to stream line the core rules of Pokemon as much as they can to make the game more and more accessible to new players. Even adults can find the rules of a TCG (especially their first one) overwhelming; how hard must it be for someone who has only just learned how to read or the needed, basic math skills?

Since it keeps coming up, let's really think about what some of the past proposed changes have done.

No Opening Draw
Losing the opening draw just gives slightly worse opening hands for player one. It does hurt to lose a card, but its hardly crippling. It creates a "special circumstance" to the normal rules and people who are not new to the game get the joy of possible penalties because most of us instinctively start to draw at the beginning of our turn. I mean, I've played TCG where you don't draw first thing and it actually goofs me up quite a bit.

No Trainers (at all)
So now the first turn weighs heavily on the opener's attacks or opening turn Abilities. This then becomes a great example of over-correction creating a new problem. The ideal opening turn situation would be to have several Pokemon and/or Energy that aid in set-up... but most such cards will clutter the field later in the game and become a nuisance or even easy Prizes. This decline begins or against a speedy opponent might be in full effect by said opponent's second turn!

I also believe it will make second turn the "turn of donks". Zekrom focused decks will indeed just want to go second. The odds are not that good of opening and drawing into three Basic Pokemon naturally, unless your deck is so loaded with Basic Pokemon it under performs elsewhere. The donk loss is a little less likely if the format has good openers. The problem in this case is that the best available opener is probably Cleffa, so we are cementing its place in the game... but if it is being run, now "baby donks" remain a strong possibility for many aggressive decks.

Items Only
Losing your opening supporter does indeed hurt, but you've unintentionally provided incentive to super aggro decks, which usually by their nature end up as functional donk decks. Player's learn to spam Trainers. We saw how this worked, though I will confess there are two major difference: Rare Candy no longer functions as it used to, and we've got one established Item-denial deck with a possible second on the way. Not really all that comforting since for example, Zekrom decks will find it harder but still too easy overall to donk. They really are just losing the option to Seeker a second opening Basic back into hand or (against a lone opening Pokemon) use a Supporter to make setting up easier.

Non-Item optimized decks will be just as vulnerable to most of the problems being faced now. Item-optimized decks will just fear that challenging match against a Trainer denial deck, and even then it isn't an autoloss for them. A speedy deck is a speedy deck, and since Vileplume or Gothitelle won't hit play until the opponent's second turn, all decks will (just like now) have at least one full, real turn with everything except Evolutions. Unless the above two decks make up a majority or dominant minority of decks, I'd say odds are by the end of a tournament, one speedy deck (which usually does fall into one of those two categories) will have taken them out.

What about Stage 1 decks? Well, they can still be speedy and aggressive. They won't be likely to "donk" but if that player goes first, they still have an excellent chance of taking an early lead that just keeps expanding. If they go second, they just have a slightly lower chance. A good example of "better but not by enough to be worth the headache".

No Items
Zekrom donk decks take a hit but still won't be rendered unplayable... in fact once again second turn they are fairly appealing. They just won't have as easy of a time ruining the set-up of Stage 2 decks. Once again, it is my best prediction (granted one being made after some personal issues woke me up after half a night's sleep) that the end result is going to be getting less than we are "paying for". Going second might become too good or it might make no difference to the fast Stage 1 deck.
 
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