Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Ban List - Which Cards?

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vegitalian

vegitalian

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With all the discussion of ban list and rotation, if you had the power to ban 4 cards, which would they be? Provide explanations on how banning them would aid the format.

Personal thoughts are:

Sableye SF: This is an obvious one - the Poke-Body along with the ability to easily donk makes this card broken in the next format. By removing this, there would be less donks, and no power to control who goes first (giving non-donk decks a higher chance at success).

Uxie LA: With the new rule set, we need the game to slow down. At this point, players have the ability to mill through their entire deck, and Uxie is the main reason for that. The next best engine is Professor Juniper, which thankfully can only be used once a turn (twice if you count Portrait/Impersonate/Jirachi RR). Removing this would also reduce the likelihood of donks.

Broken Time-Space: Many donks are made possible by both this and Rare Candy. With the errata on Candy, getting rid of this would prevent Stage 1 and Stage 2 donks, which are very prevalent in our format (Machamp, Gyarados, Gengar, Kingdra, Donphan, etc.).

Energy Gain: With the other cards removed, SP would be just plain overpowered. The question is what would slow them down to the Stage 1/2 player's level? With Garchomp C's ability to snipe basics with no real drawback, it will be near impossible to evolve your basics unless you go first. Poke Turn limits their capabilities (healing, Flash Bite damage, retreating). Cyrus limits their consistency (which would make the deck slightly more random - consistency is good for the game IMO). Crobat G limits their OHKO possibilities (Anything that's 10 or 20 damage off). Power Spray limits their disruption (which would be minimal if Uxie were banned). SP Radar limits their search (but options are still out there with Pokemon Communication/Luxury Ball/Premier Ball). Energy Gain slows them down, which is really the effect we're going for I believe in this format.

The key to making the best of these rules is to slow down the format, and for this reason, we need to limit donking capabilities and keep everything at the same level. Please note that this is not the same as any other topics, and I would like to keep some good discussion in here for the betterment of the game.
 
Crobat G is one of the cards that cause most donk problems and make SP overpowered. If there is one card to be banned, I'd choose this one.
 
^As has been said by others, that is oneof those cards that should be errata'd to only work once a turn. I'd actually argue that PokeTurn needs to be errata'd oncea turn too, since its actually a bigger part of Crobat G's dominance than the card itself. It would still be an invaluable card for reusing and healign SPs, but it wouldn't be this huge flury of using the same Poke-Power 3+ times in a turn.
 
the only thing i think i would add to the original list would be an errata on crobat. though, with the removal of uxie, a swarm of crobat drops wouldn't really be possible.

i really think the game would be better with those cards dropped. i've never wanted a card banned, but since the rules are changing, these cards are too powerful. sableye is obvious, considering the fact that when the card was printed the downside to his body was that the sableye player didn't get to use trainers/supporters during her turn. uxie as well, considering how much can be done to an oopponent when you can basically see a 14 card hand while they haven't had a chance to play a card. and energy gain is just stupid first turn, o-m-g.
 
No need to ban any cards or have a midseason rotation. 1 simple rule addition to the game forever to make it last beyond Turn 1.

"Each player cannot win the game on their 1st Turn"

Who wants to travel a ways to any tournament just to be donked? It really takes the fun out of the game as well as any form of competition or strategy. Just eliminate being able to win on Turn 1. Pokemon USA needs to contact Pokemon Japan and seriously consider this rule change for the betterment of our game :thumb:
 
Watching decks at Regionals, it's unlikely that people start with 3 pokemon in their hand. 1 or 2 is most likely. Let's call it 80% of the time.

Sableye + Expert Belt + Special Dark + Seeker wins the game against any starter with 70HP or less. (Opposing Spiritomb and Sableye excluded.)
If you add in a single Crobat G Flash Bite, it's 80HP or less.

B&W rules + Sableye SF fundamentally breaks the format. That's what needs to be addressed.
 
JohnnyBlaze said:
"Each player cannot win the game on their 1st Turn"
Click to expand...

But there are ramifications to that simple change too. People won't fear Unown Q starts anymore, and deck construction will reflect that....perhaps reducing the number of Basics they play. Furthermore, what happens if someone wants to Psychic Restore against an Unown Q? Is no Pokemon on the field no longer a win condition? What if the player going second has no search cards and thus can't put another Pokemon into play, is it okay that player one wins then?

If so, your proposal has the same end result that Jimmy proposed as a change back in May 2009:

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99309

Instead of the win condition being:

You Knock Out your opponent’s last Pokémon in play.​

change it to:

Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of their turn.​

I'd say the change even needs to be more specific, so that clearing the field is still a win condition mid-game:

Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of Turn One.​

 
Crobat G is definitely the biggest problem.
I love the thing to death but if they want to keep Sableye, that thing has to go.

Maybe errata it to: "you can't use more than one flash bite per turn"

---------- Post added 04/19/2011 at 10:46 AM ----------
StormFront said:
It's too late to have bans/erratas/ or mid-season rotation. All these cards will get rotated out shortly anyway.
Click to expand...

we are already getting erratas from the Black and White set. Why not more?
And it's not too late to ban.
I do agree on that it is too late for a mid season rotation
 
espy87 said:
Crobat G is definitely the biggest problem.
I love the thing to death but if they want to keep Sableye, that thing has to go.

Maybe errata it to: "you can't use more than one flash bite per turn"

---------- Post added 04/19/2011 at 10:46 AM ----------



we are already getting erratas from the Black and White set. Why not more?
And it's not too late to ban.
I do agree on that it is too late for a mid season rotation
Click to expand...

But multiple Flash Bites are only needed in a Sabledonk deck to reduce the number of Pokemon on the opponent's field from 3 to 2. If the opponent only starts with 2 Pokemon, the Crobat G errata won't make a difference.
 
But there are ramifications to that simple change too. People won't fear Unown Q starts anymore, and deck construction will reflect that....perhaps reducing the number of Basics they play. Furthermore, what happens if someone wants to Psychic Restore against an Unown Q? Is no Pokemon on the field no longer a win condition? What if the player going second has no search cards and thus can't put another Pokemon into play, is it okay that player one wins then?
Click to expand...

"If an attack would cause a knockout on that players 1st turn, then that attack causes no damage/effect."

This would address your Uxie vs Unown q start scenario.

On a player's 2nd turn if they still dont have a way to get another basic then they legitimately lose. But losing on 1st turn is just unacceptable anymore. Especially the current format and the new B+W format to be.
 
losjackal said:
Instead of the win condition being:

You Knock Out your opponent’s last Pokémon in play.​

change it to:

Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of their turn.​

I'd say the change even needs to be more specific, so that clearing the field is still a win condition mid-game:

Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of Turn One.​
Click to expand...

I'd kinda prefer this one...

If your Opponent has no Pokemon on his or her field when you attack, you take a prize.​

This ensures that every game lasts for at least 5 turns while still allowing for FTKOs and the pressure of having something big to deal with. Of course, it must also be balanced by one other rule...

If you have no Pokemon in play and at least one Basic in your hand, you MUST play at least one Basic Pokemon before your turn ends.​

But that opens up a whole can of worms about Judging that I don't really want to think about.
 
If they were ever going to ban something they would ban what would make the biggest difference without banning the most cards.

They never would do this because it is a horrible idea but if they really want to change things up while at the same time fix a donking issue Poketurn would be ideal.

BLAH BLAH BLAH it would wreck SP decks BLAH BLAH

^ Who cares at this point?

Pokemon won't ban cards anyways.

Rotation! If Pokemon Tournaments were a democracy there would be a rotation. I haven't personally talked to anyone who doesn't want it done. The people who are worried about a rotation are thinking oh man I wont have cards to use. Not oh man the game is going to suck.
 
SP pokemon in general would be at the top of my list. So not counting SP?

Dusknoir Lv. X
He's cost me a box in a tournament before. I like boxes.
First of all It's a confusing pokepower. Makes the whole game just feel like red tape. Secondly with black and white many of the pokemon have just 30 HP. The set also has no new stadiums. (and thus can't just replace him) do we really want him to tale out new to the gamers that easy?

Lost world
How much longer must it last?
It's the First card that could ever allow you to win in a different way entirely.
I don't like the lost world in general, I thought the original idea for it was simply that you couldn't get those cards back with discard pile searches, but now there's too much tied into it.

Gengar prime: Reasons mentioned above.

And finally BTS, vegitalian already gave us enough reasons to hate it. I run 4 rare candies and love them, but BTS just feels wrong
 
Seeker:
It's this card that has partly caused Lost Gar to become so dominant in Japan, but it also affects our metagame. By banning it, Sabledonk will loose power, as it will have another benched pokemon to deal with. It will also make Lostgar a lot less stronger in Japan, so will overall help the entire pokemon tcg community, by stopping the two most broken decks in their respective formats.

Errata on Sableye:
Change the pokebody Overeager to:

"if Sableye is your active Pokemon at the beginning of the game, and your opponent has 4 or more benched Pokemon, you go first."

OR

"if Sableye is your active Pokemon at the beginning of the game, you go first. If you go first by this cards effect, you cannot play any trainer, supporter or stadium cards during your first turn."

P!P did an errata on rare candy to stop it from being so broken, so why can't they simply errata Sabeleye? This errata will allow no cards to be banned, but will at least give the opponent a fighting chance to survive a possible donk.

Team Galactics invention - Poke turn:
The SP engine is what makes SP the best decks in the current format - fact. I believe that Poketurn is the most broken in the entire engine, as you can effectively fully heal any of your Pokemon. Without this card, SP decks will still be okay as they have the whole search engine as well as energy gain, but it will prevent the SP deck from being amazing. Poketurn should also be banned as it compliments Crobat G too well, and influences a Turn 1 donk, with the ability to spread so much possible damage without even having to attack. The removal of this card will effectivly end Sabledonk, because Super scoop ups are too risky, and it will also decrease the power of SP, overall making the format much more fun and balanced for all.

Broken Time Space:
If Poketurn got banned, I feel that the format would swing around, and stage two decks will become too powerful. Nothing feels better than dropping a basic, evolving it and evolving it again within a matter of three seconds. But I feel that stage twos do not need this speed. Whilst stage twos are slower to setup, they are stronger and have higher HP, which makes up for the time it takes to get them into play. So if Poketurn got banned, I feel this card would also need to be banned.
 
The Candy errata was done in Japan. TPCi probably can not errata cards on their own.
 
Why don't we test these changes before just spouting them out? Removing BTS makes Stage 2 decks even less viable... that just isn't doable. Removing Uxie may as well be a new format. Decks will be built in a completely different way... it isn't just -2 Uxie +2 Volkner. Removing Uxie would be HORRIBLE for the game. Huge changes like that should be reserved for a rotation. Just try to build an entire metagame of decks without Uxie. You'll find that all of the decks will be built very differently than what we have now. Banning E-gain is just very nitpicky IMO. E-gain is what allows SP to gain the edge against decks. SP is as fast as it is because it needs to play. Usually, if most versions of SP go into mid-game without an advantage, it will lose. SP's game is earlygame. It runs out of steam FAST and cannot win if it doesn't do well earlygame. The cyrus engine is (IMO) perfectly balanced. I (for one) never feel cheated when my opponent slaps down a cyrus and gets their engine rolling. You would kill most versions of SP. SP is a perfectly fair deck... please TRY not to kill it.

Sableye is the big issue in this format. If we HAD to ban something, ban sableye. I'm working on an article explaining this, but I don't believe that Sableye is the evildoer... it is only a portion of the problem. What banning Sableye does is it makes those donk decks go back to a coin flip at best. That reduces its odds of outright winning by a good number... but is it a sure-fire fix? You decide ;D

I oppose a ban list for ONE reason and one reason only. Having a ban list sets a precedent under P!P's resume. Wizards banned cards... P!P didn't. Our format is less oppressive than other formats in the past. GG seemed very unfair at the time. 50/60 damage per turn, locking potential, a built in supporter copying engine, AND the potential to one shot anything in a single attack? Sign me up. We have not seen sabledonk dominate under the current format. Perhaps it is all overhype? (doubtful IMO). I am willing to bet, though, that sabledonk doesn't make T8 masters at nats or T16 masters at worlds. We only have 2 big tournaments of Sabledonk. One of which the majority will not even play in. Banning cards shows that P!P is okay with banning cards and shows that they may do that in the future. Look at how people wanted to ban Plox in the past. People wanted to ban lost world. People want to ban Sableye now. If P!P had a record of banning cards, perhaps those complaints would be well-founded. People would complain for banning even more in the future than they have done already.

I believe we should take a page from Magic the Gathering. In the latest event, there were 32 Jace the Mind Sculptor cards in the Top 8 (4 per deck). There were also 32 Preordain in the Top 8 (which are very minor cards). Wizards has stated that they refuse to ban Jace because it is not oppressive... it is just a very good deck. A format exists around Jace, but he is on top. Wizards has claimed that decks that dominate and make the format unfun are the only decks they will ban. A similar policy should be taken. We have not seen how much Sablock dominates the format... we have only seen games involving Sablock winning. Wait it out and see how much Sabledonk dominates. I feel that it is unfun, but we'll see how unfair it is.
 
losjackal said:

B&W rules + Sableye SF fundamentally breaks the format. That's what needs to be addressed.
Click to expand...

OllieK said:
Errata on Sableye:
Change the pokebody Overeager to:

"if Sableye is your active Pokemon at the beginning of the game, you go first. If you go first by this cards effect, you cannot play any trainer, supporter or stadium cards during your first turn."
Click to expand...

At first glance, I was really happy about this suggestion. It solves part of the problem, by negating the advantage of Sableye going first guaranteed, but on the other hand it can now make Sableye starts a disadvantage: Sablelock and Gyarados decks start with Sableye for legitimate reasons, and this errata would put them at a disadvantage versus decks that doesn't use Sableye and can play T/S/S first turn if they win the coin flip. (Perhaps Sablelock and Gyarados just need to get over it and change with the format, though.)

Overeager + Special Dark + Expert Belt + Overconfident as an attack is just a broken combination to start the game; the Sableye SF card just has too much going for it with the new B&W rules. So on second thought, the above errata might just be good enough to discourage people from using it without an outright ban.
 
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