Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Beedrill or Gyarados?

L

Little Wittz

New Member
Both decks are fast and hit heavy, but am curious what the gym thinks is the better of the two decks.

Beedrill has the ability to hit a little harder, and has free retreat.

But the fish has more hp, and seems to be able to set up a little faster.

Both can recover at about the same speed, and both have issues with what cards are prized.

So what do you think- bees or fish? and WHY
 
gyarados is better because it doesnt need to setup 4 stage 2's to do alot of damage and its alot more consistent imo
 
Beedrill > Gyrados IMO, Beedrill is easy to set up if played correctly, i.e 4 BTS 4-4-4 Line, Gyrados can only do 90... Not very strong and the Weakness too Luxray which is a big part of the Metagame nowdays so it would be taken down quickly by LuxApe, BlazeRay etc.
 
poke home: it doesnt need 3 or 4 stage twos but it does need 3 baby fish in the discard.

kono: want to explain why??

gliscor: the two decks that you say gyarados gets hurt by because of weakness also have beedrills weakness- so whats your argument?
 
Ugh... this is asking to choose between two decks that require a massive setup. Either of these decks can be easily disrupted by cards like Power Spray, which then screws over the entire setup and results in a loss. However, I would say Gyarados is harder to disrupt since it requires discard rather than rapid search-and-play.

On the other hand, a Beedrill variant won Worlds. Tough call.
 
Little Wittz said:
poke home: it doesnt need 3 or 4 stage twos but it does need 3 baby fish in the discard.

kono: want to explain why??

gliscor: the two decks that you say gyarados gets hurt by because of weakness also have beedrills weakness- so whats your argument?
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It's very simple.

If you can build a fast gyrados, you could have 90 for 0 turn 2. Really not that hard to understand....
 
i would say bedrill well you can have shaymin on the bench plus with the riseing rivals you can keep serching for grass pokemon.....and if your oppent hase devoulter i know not many people play but it can take out magikarp quikly but there is pokemon rescue.
 
konopacz said:
It's very simple.

If you can build a fast gyrados, you could have 90 for 0 turn 2. Really not that hard to understand....
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I completely understand that part of gyarados. But speedrill can hit 90 t2 pretty easily as well. You didn't really sell any argument as to why one was better than the other.
 
lol how is gyra affected heavily by power spray? All you need is sableye. Please name a deck that requires less powers. And don't be "that guy" and say scizor cherrim
 
Both of these decks crumble very easily to disruption.

Gyarados needs to be able to play Trainers/Stadiums in order to be consistent. Any deck running Spiritomb (And most players are smart enough to bench TWO) can block Pokemon Rescues, if you can KO a Gyarados with Psychic Restore and push Spiritomb you're in a very commanding situation. Many decks have a hit-and-run-to-Spiritomb strategy anyways. Flygon with Sand Wall is also extremely deadly, since Gyara NEEDS BTS in play, and there's so many things on the bench for Flygon to pick on via Memory Berry. Sableye doesn't take any damage from Sand Tomb (Palkia can be game ending in this match-up), Claydol has high retreat, Registeel/ice both have high retreat, etc.

Beedrill received some outs with Palmer's, but a big thing about Night Maintenance is being able to use a Roseanne's/Bebe's in the same turn in combination with Flutter Wing(s) to instantly rebuild another Beedrill through BTS. So trainer locks are deadly, but don't forget Power Locks... something like Palkia can halt Beedrill for so long that by the time it gets powers the game is almost over. Dusknoir can run a train over Beedrill when it doesn't see it coming either... and even in a top cut match assuming the player already KNOWS Dusknoir is played, its still an extremely restricting tech limiting the decks damage.

Both of these decks seem like they have a hard time with Gengar too, moreso Beedrill than Gyara... but mostly only if Gengar plays Relicanth. Either way, there's so many powers to pick on. Both of these decks also face very bad prize issues... if a Weedle/Beedrill or Magikarp is prized in a match-up you're really cutting back on damage. You can't consistently go into every single match without A.) Extremely terrible prize issues with more than 1 Pokemon prized or B.) Having Azelf power sprayed. Eventually you're going to have some bad luck. Let's not forget Mr. Mime, either.

Granted there are outs to almost all of these situations if you try hard enough... Rare Candy over BTS for Flygon, Palmers/Suicune over Rescue for Trainer locks, extremely high counts of Switch/Warp Point/Warp Energy for Flygon all in Gyara. Palmer's for Trainer locks and Mesprits of its own for Power Locks in Beedrill. But even in the hands of a good player ALL of these techs cut back on consistency so much its almost like... why bother? Even if you can get around disruption, you still face bad match-ups in themselves.

If I had to choose I'd go with Beedrill, I think it has less issues than Gyarados and the format is more favorable for it. Both of these decks had their time at Worlds '09, but that was a different format.
 
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Shen said:
Both of these decks crumble very easily to disruption.

Gyarados needs to be able to play Trainers/Stadiums in order to be consistent. Any deck running Spiritomb (And most players are smart enough to bench TWO) can block Pokemon Rescues, if you can KO a Gyarados with Psychic Restore and push Spiritomb you're in a very commanding situation. Many decks have a hit-and-run-to-Spiritomb strategy anyways. Flygon with Sand Wall is also extremely deadly, since Gyara NEEDS BTS in play, and there's so many things on the bench for Flygon to pick on via Memory Berry. Sableye doesn't take any damage from Sand Tomb (Palkia can be game ending in this match-up), Claydol has high retreat, Registeel/ice both have high retreat, etc.

Beedrill received some outs with Palmer's, but a big thing about Night Maintenance is being able to use a Roseanne's/Bebe's in the same turn in combination with Flutter Wing(s) to instantly rebuild another Beedrill through BTS. So trainer locks are deadly, but don't forget Power Locks... something like Palkia can halt Beedrill for so long that by the time it gets powers the game is almost over. Dusknoir can run a train over Beedrill when it doesn't see it coming either... and even in a top cut match assuming the player already KNOWS Dusknoir is played, its still an extremely restricting tech limiting the decks damage.

Both of these decks seem like they have a hard time with Gengar too, moreso Beedrill than Gyara... but mostly only if Gengar plays Relicanth. Either way, there's so many powers to pick on. Both of these decks also face very bad prize issues... if a Weedle/Beedrill or Magikarp is prized in a match-up you're really cutting back on damage. You can't consistently go into every single match without A.) Extremely terrible prize issues with more than 1 Pokemon prized or B.) Having Azelf power sprayed. Eventually you're going to have some bad luck. Let's not forget Mr. Mime, either.

Granted there are outs to almost all of these situations if you try hard enough... Rare Candy over BTS for Flygon, Palmers/Suicune over Rescue for Trainer locks, extremely high counts of Switch/Warp Point/Warp for Flygon energy all in Gyara. Palmer's for Trainer locks and Mesprits of its own for Power Locks in Beedrill. But even in the hands of a good player ALL of these techs cut back on consistency so much its almost like... why bother? Even if you can get around disruption, you still face bad match-ups in themselves.

If I had to choose I'd go with Beedrill, I think it has less issues than Gyarados and the format is more favorable for it. Both of these decks had their time at Worlds '09, but that was a different format.
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couldnt' have said it any better than you shen. I've played Gyarados and didn't much care for it, the only thing it has for beedrill is the fact that it doesn't really need any energy to play and is a stage 1. Personally I'd rather not play either to be honest - but if I had to choose, it'd be the bees.
 
Gyarados is better for me because it looks better. So many players and so many answers. I would play what suits best to my playstyle or what i would like. There is no best deck and every deck has its weakness. Both decks (SMUB IT and Raybees) were in top8 in the Worlds 2009. That means that both are at least above average and as usual only luck wins such matches. Just read Fabien's and Stephen's report (I appologize if I have those names wrong as I don't have time to look it up).

tyvm

P.S. Don't have time = LAZY :p but I have 3 kids as an excuse ;-)
 
Speedrill's definitely better. If the matchup is between something like raybee's then gyarados has the advantage, but straight speedrill? It whomps gyarados all day.
 
Little Wittz said:
I completely understand that part of gyarados. But speedrill can hit 90 t2 pretty easily as well. You didn't really sell any argument as to why one was better than the other.
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Good point, let me elaborate.

I won 2 BRs already this season playing beedrill. I have always loved beedrill because of the sucsess that it has given me. But you have to look at the facts:

They are both very similar decks, if you think about iT. They are both low energy attackers, fast and extremley resileant. But gyrados has the edge. It does 90 for no energy almost un-conditionaly ( a felcitys or regice will get you those magykarps.) But a beedrill player ( ESPECIALLY a raybees player) usually can't get 3 bees t2. Trust me, I have had a lot of experience with beedrill, especially raybees, and It is very hard to get 3 bees t2 without deminising a significant amount of your late game recorces.

Gyrados is more consistant, more reselient and in this meta game, a better choice.

Lets have a look at the matchups for each deck.

Gengar:

Bedrill 35-65
Gyrados 40-60

This matchup is pretty bad for both decks. Gyra plays a crap load of trainers, but has very few pokemon with powers. Beedrill plays a lot of pokemon with powers ( claydol, 2 flutter wing bees, etc) AND plays a crap load of trainers.

Luxape/blazeray

Gyrados 65-35
Beedrill 35-65

Infernapes/blazikens 0hko bees for 1-2 energy. Gyrados OHKOs blazes and napes for 0 energy. If they show you luxray, scoop up, and drop the crobat for an ohko.

Flygon

Gyrados-45-55
Beedrill- 45-55

A very even matchup, not much to say bout it. They are both stadium relient to a certian extent, and wind erosion descards valuable stuff for both decks.

in conclusion, they are both great decks, but gyrados has the edge in todays meta.

I hope ive made my point:thumb:
 
I've tested both decks extensively, and Gyarados has always tested more consistently for me, especially when teched well. In terms of both decks, I primarily tested Raybees and a modified/teched French Gyarados list. In today's meta, Gyarados has the edge in a lot of matchups, but in terms of pure mechanics Gyarados tends to have the least to lose from poor prizes...I wish I could say the same for Beedrill.

Mr. Mime is quite an issue, though, but my list is pretty much teched against it. Sorry for the vagueness, but I'm not quite sure I'm ready to provide the list at this time, maybe soon though if I change my mind on what I'm playing for upcoming premier events.

However, I must say that the versatility and synergy of Regice is extremely helpful in this meta. But, to be fair and avoid longwinded-ness, here's a simple chart of observations I've found.

Beedrill
Pros:
-Better late game play
-Better damage output
-Easy to play (within reason)
-Can afford to play multiple Claydols
-Quick recovery via Cynthia's/Night Maintenance being so amazing with Flutter Wings
Cons:
-Power lock hurts/limits it far more, the FGD/Palkia Lock matchups are poor
-More of a one-trick pony...hard to tech outside of the Luxray GL line
-Suffers far more from bad hands/prizes
-Spiritomb AoA hurts a good deal, depending on the list and trainer line
-Little bench space for techs and requires some conservative early plays in terms of Claydol vs. Azelf vs. Uxie, which can be a huge liability

Gyarados
Pros:
-Sableye/Call reduces poor starts
-Easy, fast, consistent setup
-Can better abuse expert belt, if only due to space
-Flexible and versatile
-Regice is phenomenal in this deck, period
Cons:
-Expert Belt is a liability, however
-Damage output is worse, and some key KOs can take a great amount of resource dedication in terms of Turns, Bats, Bucks, etc. And if timed improperly, a single SSU can make it so you've wasted a good portion of your arsenal.
-Mr. Mime is a pain, but techs make it easier
-Often takes 2HKOs as opposed to 1HKOs with Beedrill, meaning its more susceptible to interruption via Status
-Requires a flexible player who can adjust to matchups
-Flytrap has a field day this deck
-Slightly more susceptible to Dusknoir

There's obviously much more that can be said in terms of individual matchups, but these are just some general points to take note of.

Just my two cents.
 
^And just so it's said, that Luxray GL Lv.X tech in Beedrill with 2 Bat and 4 Turn and such. Yeah. It DECIMATES its consistancy. The guy who won worlds was lucky, not to say he was a bad player, but the deck just doesn not set-up nicely. Throw Spiritomb in the format and you could just as easily Mimic for 8 turns and get nothing playable.

Oh and don't forget that Beedrill doesn't have an out to Dusknoir DP2, a common tech. It just has to fetch back Beedrills in a turn or two. Gyarados can (and often does) play with 3 or less bench.

I'm partial to Gyarados but don't really like either.
 
Shino Bug Master said:
^And just so it's said, that Luxray GL Lv.X tech in Beedrill with 2 Bat and 4 Turn and such. Yeah. It DECIMATES its consistancy. The guy who won worlds was lucky, not to say he was a bad player, but the deck just doesn not set-up nicely. Throw Spiritomb in the format and you could just as easily Mimic for 8 turns and get nothing playable.

Oh and don't forget that Beedrill doesn't have an out to Dusknoir DP2, a common tech. It just has to fetch back Beedrills in a turn or two. Gyarados can (and often does) play with 3 or less bench.

I'm partial to Gyarados but don't really like either.
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That's a pretty ignorant thing to say.


First of all, you only play 1 crobat, and 2 cyrus. It doesn't do anything to it's consistency. Raybees is one of the most consistent decks in the format, flutter wings beedrill is just amazing for consistency. If you run 3-4 Claydol's than you almost ALWAYS get it on t2.


Spiritomb is awesome, that's why I now play one. All that did was make it EVEN MORE consistent.


Flygon is one of the most inconsistent decks in the format, not Raybees
 
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