Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Bluffing?

B

Box of Fail

New Member
Alright, so we know bluffing a Power Spray by holding a card at the edge of your hand and staring at it is bad.

How about this?

Player 1 needs to use Luxray GL LV.X's Bright Look to win the game. Player 2 used Cyrus's Conspiracy last turn to get Power Spray. Knowing this, Player 1 uses Premier Ball. While searching his deck, Player 1 exclaims, "Oh, shoot!" and fails the Premier Ball. He then uses Roseanne's Research to get Azelf LA and uses Time Walk, eliciting a response of "Power Spray." Player 1, who had the Luxray GL LV.X in his hand the whole time, now uses Bright Look, and Player 2 does not have another Power Spray.

Is this legal, 'frowned upon', or flat-out against the rules?
 
Box of Fail said:
Alright, so we know bluffing a Power Spray by holding a card at the edge of your hand and staring at it is bad.

How about this?

Player 1 needs to use Luxray GL LV.X's Bright Look to win the game. Player 2 used Cyrus's Conspiracy last turn to get Power Spray. Knowing this, Player 1 uses Premier Ball. While searching his deck, Player 1 exclaims, "Oh, shoot!" and fails the Premier Ball. He then uses Roseanne's Research to get Azelf LA and uses Time Walk, eliciting a response of "Power Spray." Player 1, who had the Luxray GL LV.X in his hand the whole time, now uses Bright Look, and Player 2 does not have another Power Spray.

Is this legal, 'frowned upon', or flat-out against the rules?
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Actually, this is the same sort of move Stephen Silvestro used to win one of his matches at worlds, and he went on to win that tournament. This move is not only legal, but is one of incredibly high skill.
 
I'm gonna drop in here with a quick rant.

The inclusion of the game mechanic that Power Spray uses encourages this type of behavior. Bating out a "trap card" in my opinion shouldn't be considered malicious play as long as you do not deliberately lie to your opponent.

For instance, the example you posted annoys me in the "oh shoot" commentary. You are always allowed to fail a failable search, so while your opponent could assume that you are playing the card in hopes of its effect, you could be playing it to no effect purposely, to re-look through your deck, or to decrease the card count in your hand. If they then choose to Power Spray the Azelf, it's their mistake.

Though really, why not save the Power Spray for the Luxray they get out of the prizes? :p
 
Lol.. first.. that player would be dumb to even power spray the Azelf... I would let them take then Luxray GL LV. X from the prizes, and then power spray it.
[Shino beat me to it]


On topic... I don't see anything wrong with it. If your opponent takes the bait, then that's good for you.
 
Box of Fail said:
Alright, so we know bluffing a Power Spray by holding a card at the edge of your hand and staring at it is bad.

How about this?

Player 1 needs to use Luxray GL LV.X's Bright Look to win the game. Player 2 used Cyrus's Conspiracy last turn to get Power Spray. Knowing this, Player 1 uses Premier Ball. While searching his deck, Player 1 exclaims, "Oh, shoot!" and fails the Premier Ball. He then uses Roseanne's Research to get Azelf LA and uses Time Walk, eliciting a response of "Power Spray." Player 1, who had the Luxray GL LV.X in his hand the whole time, now uses Bright Look, and Player 2 does not have another Power Spray.

Is this legal, 'frowned upon', or flat-out against the rules?
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I might, as a judge, want to further examine the whole picture surrounding, "Oh, shoot!". It's not needed, and remember, if something falls into "dubious game actions intended to deceive the opponent" in the eyes of your HJ, then its "Unsporting: Severe = DQ". If its my game, I tread lightly. You are leading your opponent's interpretation of your play by an overt action (speaking) here. Dunno if that's enough to penalize without seeing the match, but, I personally wouldn't say it.

Merely failing the Premiere Ball search and using Azelf to try to deplete the Power Spray is clearly fine to me as a judge.

As a player, it points out the need to really weigh whether there is something else in the prizes that could win the game for your opponent without a Pokepower use, or whether you should hold that Spray for the Bright Look itself.
 
Bluffing is a very skillful technique in pokemon, and from what I've seen from very high standard playing, it's used quite often. But downright lying is BAD (as pointed out by SBM) in most things - especially in a competitive pokemon game.
 
My only problem with bluffing is the fact that its legality is questioned a little by the rules. But not much detail is put on that section.

Which in turn leads to a little something called ruling inconsistancys. As in nats is diffrent than most regionals in ruling style.

An other thing that I hate is people who bluff but do it badly. Dont even get me started.:nonono:
 
^ I agree. I've played people who start off like this:

"Me: Hi.
Opponent: Hi. Don't blame me for the way my deck handles, I'm new to it.
Me: Sure.
*Sets up*
Opponent: Oh shoot, you've won this one. I've got a horrible start.
Me: Uh-hu.
*Flips basics. He has active Chatot, benched Dialga G, benched Baltoy, benched Garchomp C.*
Me: Uh-hu."
 
Haha yeah, I've had that. I just ignore everything my opponent says that isn't a move they are doing during a game.
 
bulbasnore said:
It's not needed, and remember, if something falls into "dubious game actions intended to deceive the opponent" in the eyes of your HJ,
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Bulbasnore, that example from the guidelines is meant to protect players from doing something that is prevented by a rule, such as shuffling the hand into the deck when the shuffle is prevented. Is playing Power Spray on Time Walk an illegal move? No, unless Keystone Seal Spiritomb is active on one side.

In a game of strategy, if we are not supposed to outwit the opponent, we'd all be playing with our hands face-up.

For the OP, lying is bad. Never lie. However, a sigh may be more appropriate. As this discussion develops, someone is going to come to the conclusion that speaking something that may communicate anything is bad.
 
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ShadowCard said:
Bulbasnore, that example from the guidelines is meant to protect players from doing something that is prevented by a rule, such as shuffling the hand into the deck when the shuffle is prevented. Is playing Power Spray on Time Walk an illegal move?
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Yah, I know exactly why that rule is in the guidelines, don't I?

But anyway, you are wrong when you say it is there to protect players from doing something that is prevented by a rule if, as it appears, you mean that is the only reason.

It's also there to protect them from being duped by their opponent into taking legal game actions. The guideline applies more broadly to any game action intended to deceive an opponent, for example, the "'lucky Dark Palm Dusknoir' appearing in the 'reference card' pile" trick is covered by this rule.
 
meganium45 said:
For the record. Steven Silvestro did not say "oh shoot"
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Thanks for the witness on that. I think both Steve and his competition at that event were way above the level at which that verbal feint would be offered or useful. In fact, if it had been said, it might have marked the play as a red herring.
 
This most certainly is not against the rules. This it takes a huge amount of skill to execute this properly ( without your opponnent realizing). This shouldn't be used more than once a game, or even more than once a tournement, because people will find out. People could start to question your sportsmanship, and say that you want to win so badly that you would cheat.

I would never pull that move at a battle road or CC. At states or reagionals though......

BTW Kevin, I'll be extra careful if I play you at Milford :biggrin:
 
LOL, Good topic... Judges. I think this Silvestro manuever is a perfect example.

If I say "Oh Shucks"..... That isn't lying. That is Bluffing and good ole card playing. Most people wear their emotions on the sleeve and you are free to intreprete emotions and "NON-STATEMENT" FACTS as you wish.

If someone says "My Luxray-Lvl X is prized", when it isn't, That sort of revelation is something specific and is a bold face lie, and I do wonder about that being good for SOTG, and generally most folks won't reveal any specific information about the game in session.

But to give misleading "signals" to your opponent is something that is fine. I think the two most obvious tells that we ussually give our opponents are when something is prized, or when we have a slow and dead hand start.

I tell people this game is a mix between poker and chess. Poker less about the odds, more about the bluffing aspect of the game. Strong players will often try to coax their opponents into strategic misplays, then spring a trap on them. (Not junk like "Do you know what this card does?")

Thus I would say to lie about specific information is bad. My Luxray is Prized, I don't play Dusknoir. Nothing specific about an deck should be said or asked about. (None of this BS about trying to "Draw out" your opponent.) I think the questioning your opponents on there deck is something that should be cautioned on. Why, it is just irratating likely offensive and ...waste game time.

To give a False "poker" tell, so that your opponent can guess at what is truth should be fine.

To search your deck once, then twice, then three times, then roll your eyes, and put your deck down in disgust.... Does it matter if you said anything??? Not really, anyone reading that person is probably thinking something is prized. The truth is most of the time we do that, we aren't trying to bluff... we are just wearing our emotions on our sleeve.
 
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There is a difference between giving a tell or even a verbal indication that something you hoped for isn't there and deliberately trying to fake a tell to deceive the opponent. Now I wont claim that I'd spot the difference but I do believe that they are completely different in character.
 
NoPoke said:
There is a difference between giving a tell or even a verbal indication that something you hoped for isn't there and deliberately trying to fake a tell to deceive the opponent. Now I wont claim that I'd spot the difference but I do believe that they are completely different in character.
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I like this explaination :thumb:

Spotting the difference is where I have a problem with declaring anything non-verbal to be against the rules. Is that smile or chuckle because you're trying to trick the opponent or because you just figured out what the catch line of the previous night's less-than-clean joke means?
 
First of all, if they need the bright look to win, why wouldn't the other play just wait and spray that? lol

I'd let my opponent Time Walk, replace the card, then just spray the Bright Look!

The "baiting" your opponent into spraying something to gain access to something else isn't a "skill" move, but more of a common sense move. You know your opponent has sprays, you know they want to stop your critical powers, so you use non-needed powers first in order to try and get them to drop that spray.

Often times if I need an uxie OR azelf, I rosy for both. My opponent knows I have both, I leave it up to them to decide which one I *really* need. Sometimes they'll wait to see which one you play first and spray the second one, so just mix it up.
 
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