Current Format

[psychup2034]

So let me first point out that I've tested/played Durant extensively against some of the top-rated players in the US.

• Durant takes a lot of skill to build.
• Durant takes almost no skill to play.

Using a good list, there hasn't been a game playing Durant for me where it doesn't feel like autopilot. Sure, using Mischievous Trick takes some "skill," since determining what's in your prizes and knowing what to pull out of your prizes can be a skill. However, that's more memory-related, and I'm not convinced that any of the top players would have a problem using Rotom correctly.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

It's completely different. For a start, no-one is saying Durant isn't good. If it wasn't, it wouldn't even get a mention. In fact people's problem with Durant is that they believe that even an unskilled player can easily do well with it.

Reshiboar, on the other hand, was getting hate because certain people kept insisting it was a good deck (I believe you were going to prove it was tier 1.5) despite the fact that the comparable decks Reshiphlosion and (especially) Zek/Eels are demonstrably superior. In other words, no matter how skillful a player is, they are always going to be fighting an uphill battle because of their poor deck choice.

There you go Vablakes.

Psychup's point is valid. My whole argument was about the deckbuilding.

And it does take some skill to play. Knowing what to Catcher, knowing when to go aggresive with Rotom, knowing what to get with Twins, knowing when to Juniper...

 

[Vablakes]

There you go Vablakes.

Psychup's point is valid. My whole argument was about the deckbuilding.

And it does take some skill to play. Knowing what to Catcher, knowing when to go aggresive with Rotom, knowing what to get with Twins, knowing when to Juniper...

What Lilligant boy said has nothing to do with what I was pointing out. And Durant isn't hard to play. All you have to do is know how to say the following words: Collector, Hammer, Remover, Juniper, Revive and Devour. That is all you need to know to play Durant.

 

[baby mario]

Lilligant boy.

Thanks for the compliment :biggrin:

 

[Vablakes]

Thanks for the compliment :biggrin:

I knew you would like that! :lol:

 

[EliGagerNorris]

I'm not even going to bother. We all have our own opinions.

 

[Sweet]

I can't really be bothered to reply to all of this now, but one quick point which I can say easily.

'Wrong. Durant requires a different form of skill. Learning what you need and when to play your disruption is a lot more difficult and important than some of you might think. If it were as simple as you make it sound then Durant would be almost entirely in or out of cut, but it's not some make it in and others don't. '

That's an awful example. The reason some do and some don't is because they play completely different paths. One Durant may play Reshiram round 1 and lose, while the other may avoid the deck completely.

You have 3 hours to show someone how to play Pokemon before a tournament - after 3 hours, would they be better with Durant or Zekeel's? Says it all. Durant is stupidly easy compared to other decks at the moment, Zekeel's especially. Deck lists would be a fair point usually - but with so many good lists online these days, it's taken a lot of skill out the game. (6 prizes underground is a good example)

---------- Post added 04/13/2012 at 12:08 PM ----------

Oh another point -

Using a good list, there hasn't been a game playing Durant for me where it doesn't feel like autopilot. Sure, using Mischievous Trick takes some "skill," since determining what's in your prizes and knowing what to pull out of your prizes can be a skill. However, that's more memory-related, and I'm not convinced that any of the top players would have a problem using Rotom correctly.

No skill, notepads have been legal since Azelf's Time Walk.

 

[baby mario]

You have 3 hours to show someone how to play Pokemon before a tournament - after 3 hours, would they be better with Durant or Zekeel's? Says it all. Durant is stupidly easy compared to other decks at the moment, Zekeel's especially. Deck lists would be a fair point usually - but with so many good lists online these days, it's taken a lot of skill out the game. (6 prizes underground is a good example)

Zel/Eels isn't exactly rocket science either. Yeah it's tougher to play than Durant, but you don't need to be an elite player to win with it.

What exactly is wrong with having decks with different skill levels in the format anyway? Why is that a bad thing? You have a choice y'know. If you want to play a deck you consider more skillful, then play it.

 

[Sweet]

Zel/Eels isn't exactly rocket science either. Yeah it's tougher to play than Durant, but you don't need to be an elite player to win with it.

What exactly is wrong with having decks with different skill levels in the format anyway? Why is that a bad thing? You have a choice y'know. If you want to play a deck you consider more skillful, then play it.

Zekeels is the hardest deck to play at the moment, if you think that isn't rocket science, that has got to make Durant an easy option skill-wise.

I definitely have a choice over what I can chose to play, but I can't chose what decks I play against all day. Pokemon is a game of skill, and although there's nothing wrong with decks having different skill levels, those with higher ones should give it's user an increased chance of winning. Sure, Durant didn't dominate State Championships, and any deck is capable of beating any deck, but Durant pushes this notion too far. With the right start and coin flips on it's side, it can often put the opponent in a situation where no matter what they do, they're just unable to win. When we have tournaments where the Swiss is Best of One, and players with records like 6-2, 5-2 or 4-1 are missing Top Cut, it's just not healthy for the game to have situations like that, just like donks.

 

[TrainerEnjay]

The format is not good right now. I think it was at its peak this season before next destinies when tier 1 was debatable. durant, magneel, CaKE, Chandelure, 6 corners, tyram, zpst, mewbox, etc. It really has narrowed down quite a bit since. The competitive decks change with every new set though so there is no need to worry. Nationals last yr wasnt very diverse imo but then it grew shortly after. I look forward to the new sets and the new EXs although I would like to see more stage 2 plays.

 

[baby mario]

Zekeels is the hardest deck to play at the moment, if you think that isn't rocket science, that has got to make Durant an easy option skill-wise.

It's an easier option, sure.

I definitely have a choice over what I can chose to play, but I can't chose what decks I play against all day. Pokemon is a game of skill,

It's a game of skill and luck. Luck has always played a part in the game. Flippy cards have been around since day 1. Disruption has been around since day 1. Bad hands and top decks and unlucky pairings . . . all a constant part of the TCG.

and although there's nothing wrong with decks having different skill levels, those with higher ones should give it's user an increased chance of winning.

They do. Look at the number of wins/top cuts for Zek/Eels compared to Durant. 24 wins vs 4, 118 top 8 finishes vs 30.

Sure, Durant didn't dominate State Championships, and any deck is capable of beating any deck, but Durant pushes this notion too far. With the right start and coin flips on it's side, it can often put the opponent in a situation where no matter what they do, they're just unable to win.

Pretty much true of any match up between any two decks.

When we have tournaments where the Swiss is Best of One, and players with records like 6-2, 5-2 or 4-1 are missing Top Cut, it's just not healthy for the game to have situations like that, just like donks.

Again, that has always been a part of Pokemon. Durant didn't create that situation. Blame the top cut caps, or the fact that single game Swiss is not a perfect system. Pick your favourite ever format: I guarantee that people were whiffing cut due to bad match ups or opponent god starts.

 

[psychup2034]

No skill, notepads have been legal since Azelf's Time Walk.

I wasn't aware that using a notepad can help me look through my deck on the first (and second) searches to figure out exactly what cards are prized. Could you tell me where you buy your magical notepads?

 

[QD4U]

So let me first point out that I've tested/played Durant extensively against some of the top-rated players in the US.

• Durant takes a lot of skill to build.
• Durant takes almost no skill to play.

Using a good list, there hasn't been a game playing Durant for me where it doesn't feel like autopilot. Sure, using Mischievous Trick takes some "skill," since determining what's in your prizes and knowing what to pull out of your prizes can be a skill. However, that's more memory-related, and I'm not convinced that any of the top players would have a problem using Rotom correctly.

You're forgetting twins. Twins is such a skill intensive card. You get to choose 1 card from your deck (since the other one will almost always be a 2nd twins), what will it be? Do you want to go for a Revive so you can keep devouring for 4, or should you go for a Catcher and try to stall for time? Maybe.. you should pick a prism energy, so you can snipe your opponents Zekrom?

There's all kinds of decisions you have to make when playing Durant. You have to know when to spend your resources, and when it's better to just save them for later. Junk Arming for a Crushing Hammer is usually not worth it, but in some situations it might be. It's all up to you, and one wrong decision could cost you the game.

And also. The deck list. Building a Durant list is so hard and it takes some real skill to build a list that can compete in the current format. Sure, building a deck isn't the same as playing it, but they are connected.

The reason everyone and their mothers could win so much with Durant in the early NV format was because few people knew how to play the match-up. Most people thought of it as a troll deck, a bad deck designed to frustrate people and nothing less, and they would end up losing because of that.

Nowadays, everyone knows how to play the match-up, so people can't just go "hurp derp I wanna win a tournament, time to go to town Durant", they have to actually be really, really skilled at playing the deck to win. And even if they're are, they're not in for any easy victories since Durant struggles a lot against ZekEels.

It's not all about devouring anymore. Turn 1 Collector and then Devour the entire game won't win you any games if you're not good with the deck.

I'm guessing most of you who keep insisting Durant takes little or no skill to play haven't played the deck enough, played it but failed miserably, or have been losing too much to it so you feel the need to hate on it.

 

[vaporeon]

Zekeels is the hardest deck to play at the moment, if you think that isn't rocket science, that has got to make Durant an easy option skill-wise.

Gonna have to agree with Baby Mario here. I used my friends Zekeels deck at league for the first time ever and beat ever person I played with it. The deck is just like Reshiphlosion. It's an auto pilot deck. I'd even argue that Durant takes more 'player' skill to play then Zekeels.

As for the most skillful decks. I'd say anything Mew, Trainer lock and X corners.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I can't really be bothered to reply to all of this now, but one quick point which I can say easily.

'Wrong. Durant requires a different form of skill. Learning what you need and when to play your disruption is a lot more difficult and important than some of you might think. If it were as simple as you make it sound then Durant would be almost entirely in or out of cut, but it's not some make it in and others don't. '

That's an awful example. The reason some do and some don't is because they play completely different paths. One Durant may play Reshiram round 1 and lose, while the other may avoid the deck completely.

You have 3 hours to show someone how to play Pokemon before a tournament - after 3 hours, would they be better with Durant or Zekeel's? Says it all. Durant is stupidly easy compared to other decks at the moment, Zekeel's especially. Deck lists would be a fair point usually - but with so many good lists online these days, it's taken a lot of skill out the game. (6 prizes underground is a good example)

I'll admit I was kinda grasping at straws since I haven't played a Durant list in a while. In any case that still doesn't explain what your real problem with it is. It feels like auto-pilot. So what? Why does it matter? The deck wouldn't even see play if it weren't consistent enough. If you don't like it don't play it, and if you're having trouble with it then upgrade your deck so it can handle it.

Also you could at least quote me if you want to counter my point.

---------- Post added 04/13/2012 at 11:09 PM ----------

Gonna have to agree with Baby Mario here. I used my friends Zekeels deck at league for the first time ever and beat ever person I played with it. The deck is just like Reshiphlosion. It's an auto pilot deck. I'd even argue that Durant takes more 'player' skill to play then Zekeels.

As for the most skillful decks. I'd say anything Mew, Trainer lock and X corners.

While ZekEels is in no way the most difficult deck to play (nor is it the prefect deck) it is far from easier than Durant. Where Durant has a sense of timing a good ZekEels deck and player isn't just on auto-pilot as it can be a very reactive deck. The options it has for match-ups are several and varied, and takes some planning. Sure it doesn't take a large amount of thinking in some match-ups, but I've had many match-ups where I need to carefully plan out each of my moves.

 

[NoPoke]

shrug : ALL pokemon decks become auto-pilot in the hands of a player who has practiced.

Sure there is skill in Durant but it always boils down to the same question: What do I do to slow my opponent down? Durant's auto-pilot behaviour is down to that question reducing to "What do I do to slow my opponent down this turn?" With its full auto-pilot glory being exposed when you don't actually have to look at the opponents board to make reasonable decisions when playing Durant.

 

[Poke Trainer J]

The biggest problem with the game right now is that Basics are the only competitive Pokemon Types in the format making Stage 1 and Stage 2's irrelevant, and that whoever goes first pretty much wins no matter what. I attended Kansas States to prove that Stage 2's aren't competitive in the format anymore and my suspicions of that were correct despite only making the Top 30 in Masters Division, I was ranked around 28th or 29th.

I then changed the deck over to ZekEels like everyone else did who ran MagEels, and when I found out how good CMT/MTC was doing in the current format I was convinced that deck and mine's matchup would be 50/50 of whoever opens the game on 1st turn. In CMT vs. ZekEels If CMT goes first then CMT wins 95% of the time and If ZekEels goes first instead of CMT then ZekEels has a strong likelihood of winning but still CMT wins the majority of the time anyway cause it's the BDIF of the format cause it's won more States than ZekEels has.

There's no disputing it, CMT is BDIF and the decks that are less competitive that are winning States like TyRam or decks running Vileplume is the result of a bad metagame in said area. Anyone who says MessieMew is an alternative over running 3 Mewtwo EX are only fooling themselves especially when Tornadus EX in Dark Explorers makes Mew pratically unplayable in the format next month. Dark Toolbox will make Stage 1's somewhat playable and ZekEels has already proven that as well.

I don't know If it's just me or If alot of people are getting out of Pokemon for
Cardfight!! Vanguard even though that game recently came out not too long ago. It's definitely more balanced than Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon but that's what you can expect from a TCG that doesn't have any power creep problems although Magic and World of Warcraft TCG get away with it amazingly well. Although World of Warcraft doesn't have as much power creep as Magic does I'd say it's more balanced yet still unpopular even in Japan unfortunately.

 

[cabd]

The biggest problem with the game right now is that Basics are the only competitive Pokemon Types in the format making Stage 1 and Stage 2's irrelevant, and that whoever goes first pretty much wins no matter what. I attended Kansas States to prove that Stage 2's aren't competitive in the format anymore and my suspicions of that were correct despite only making the Top 30 in Masters Division, I was ranked around 28th or 29th.

I then changed the deck over to ZekEels like everyone else did who ran MagEels, and when I found out how good CMT/MTC was doing in the current format I was convinced that deck and mine's matchup would be 50/50 of whoever opens the game on 1st turn. In CMT vs. ZekEels If CMT goes first then CMT wins 95% of the time and If ZekEels goes first instead of CMT then ZekEels has a strong likelihood of winning but still CMT wins the majority of the time anyway cause it's the BDIF of the format cause it's won more States than ZekEels has.

There's no disputing it, CMT is BDIF and the decks that are less competitive that are winning States like TyRam or decks running Vileplume is the result of a bad metagame in said area. Anyone who says MessieMew is an alternative over running 3 Mewtwo EX are only fooling themselves especially when Tornadus EX in Dark Explorers makes Mew pratically unplayable in the format next month. Dark Toolbox will make Stage 1's somewhat playable and ZekEels has already proven that as well.

I don't know If it's just me or If alot of people are getting out of Pokemon for
Cardfight!! Vanguard even though that game recently came out not too long ago. It's definitely more balanced than Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon but that's what you can expect from a TCG that doesn't have any power creep problems although Magic and World of Warcraft TCG get away with it amazingly well. Although World of Warcraft doesn't have as much power creep as Magic does I'd say it's more balanced yet still unpopular even in Japan unfortunately.

The state of Washington would like a word with you. (And I'm not even from there)

Do you EVER stop complaining?

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

There's no disputing it, CMT is BDIF and the decks that are less competitive that are winning States like TyRam or decks running Vileplume is the result of a bad metagame in said area. Anyone who says MessieMew is an alternative over running 3 Mewtwo EX are only fooling themselves especially when Tornadus EX in Dark Explorers makes Mew pratically unplayable in the format next month. Dark Toolbox will make Stage 1's somewhat playable and ZekEels has already proven that as well.

...So many problems with this. First of all an underrated deck winning States does not mean that State has a bad meta. One explanation could be that, but that doesn't automatically mean that it is. Second Tornadus EX isn't even a part of the meta yet, so it's importance is irrelevant to the 'Current Format.' As for weather or not CMT is BDIF I won't take a stance on, but I will point out that including straight Celebi Mewtwo, ZekEel decks were reported to have won 4 more tournament than CMT.

I don't know If it's just me or If alot of people are getting out of Pokemon for
Cardfight!! Vanguard even though that game recently came out not too long ago. It's definitely more balanced than Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokemon but that's what you can expect from a TCG that doesn't have any power creep problems although Magic and World of Warcraft TCG get away with it amazingly well. Although World of Warcraft doesn't have as much power creep as Magic does I'd say it's more balanced yet still unpopular even in Japan unfortunately.

I'm not going to argue about weather or not Pokemon is unbalanced or not since you probably won't change your mind, however I am slightly curious about something. How can a power creep exist in a new game?

 

[Tash]

shrug : ALL pokemon decks become auto-pilot in the hands of a player who has practiced.

There are still a few toolbox decks in the format.