Cyrus, The Iron Chef Champion!!

[Vegeta ss4]

Wow guys, what a tournament. This was a challenging experience. I really underestimated the responsibility of this tournament. It took it out of me to say the least. I am no going to keep the suspense going anymore, the scoring for this years Iron Chef Champion is as follows.

Cyrus vs Goldedda

Cyrus

Pokemon (36):

4 Mew ex LM
4 Sableye SF
4 Spiritomb AR
2 Murkrow NG
1 Aipom UL
1 Ambipom TM
1 Happiny PL
1 Misdreavus DP
1 Mismagius UD
1 Holon's Castform HP
1 Holon's Electrode
1 Unown Q MD
1 Jynx UF
1 Azelf LA
2 Pidgey RG
2 Pidgeotto RG
2 Pidgeot RG
2 Oddish LA
2 Dark Gloom
1 Dark Vileplume #13
1 Dark Vileplume #30

Trainers (17):

4 Pokemon Collector
4 Roseanne's Research
2 Holon Mentor
4 Computer Search
2 Gust of Wind
1 Professor Oak

Energy (7):

5 Darkness Energy
2 Psychic

This deck shatters all kinds of orthodoxy, but for all intents and purposes, it's actually pretty simple to setup. Despite the overwhelming strength of going first, Spiritomb is actually your optimal starter, as it facilitates a trainer lock whilst grabbing your Pidgeot (long-term consistency) and Dark Vileplume (permanent trainer denial).

Once that's done, you swoop in with Mew, and let the fun begin. Your "default" strategy is to aim for any shred of weakness in the opponent's setup, and then permanently lock it away via Murkrow's Mean Look. Because there are no legal special energy, no means by which to use trainers, and a metagame-generalized challenge, this is effectively a "perfect" lock.

Specific explanations:

*Maximum on Sableye/Spiritomb because - let's face it - you lose in unlimited without these starts unless you're really lucky. I considered running 4 Ditto too, but it's overkill/redundant attack-wise with Mew on the board.
*1-1 Mismagius so that, in the very rare instance where you're unable to seal a lock, you have an extremely powerful attacker to copy from. Late game, this makes Mew able to do as much as 300 damage or more.
*1-1 Ambipom for Tail Code (very clutch in securing a perfect lock), as well as hand disruption. Misdreavus on top of Ambipom can amount to a zero card hand very fast.
*Happiny to lure things up for free. Very useful in the early game if you can't access Gust.
*Split on Holon's energy to decrease start odds, yet have a chance to fetch via Collector
*Jynx to give you a better bench hitter option than Murkrow.
*Azelf fixes early game prize issues
*All members of the Pidgeot line have mini Mean Look effects, which can be used in case you either lack a Murkrow or the darkness energy to use it.
*Oddish LA for poison/lower donk odds
*Dark Gloom's Pokemon Power lets it confuse on heads! This is great to stall an opponent's advance in case your setup is slow, as well as to shut off other powers.
*I run a 1-1 split on the correct/error Dark Vileplumes to let me choose my weakness as the matchup demands.

*Long story short, this deck lives and dies based on its access to basics, which is why I run such an overkill of search supporters. Between these and max Computer Search, you're virtually guaranteed it. Even if you don't draw one of these 14 cards, there's still a chance you start Spiritomb/Pidgey or Azelf into a Pidgey, meaning your odds of a "great start" approach 95% or higher. Those, my friends, are odds I'd take with me to any tournament.

*On that note, CPU Search is AMAZING right before you drop your Dark Plume lock! Helps square away any holes in your start.

*Gust is a pre Hay Fever play that grants you the Mean Look lock without having to Happiny. It also gives you a fighting chance against anything that could shut off your powers.

*One Oak to let you reset your hand pre-Hay Fever.

*Finally, enough darkness to make an early Mean Look easy, but enough Psychic to facilitate constant Poltergeisting.

There is no Shock that I have no words to really explain this. This is simply amazing, one of the best entries of the entire tournament. This may look like a lot of inconsistency, but it really is not. Every single card has a MAJOR purpose, a flawless strategy. I do think that bad starts can really happen with this deck. This is INSANELY creative, truly didn't expect this much creativity. This deck isn't just theorymon, every deck has been tested by me on Redshark. Simply put, it works, everytime. Even with a bad start or two. What makes this deck slightly less than perfect is the bad starts this deck can have on an occasion. It isn't perfectly creative either, though it is clearly at the level above pro status, but I am grading this challenge a lot tougher than the others. I felt there were some more creative ideas out there.

Your score is as follows
Deck- 9/10
Creativity-9/10
Card Use-5/5
TOTAL=23

Goldedda

TOTAL CARDS: 60

POKEMON: 22
Stage 2: 2
2 : Vileplume, UD-24
Stage 1: 3
2 : Blissey, PL-22
1 : Gloom, LA-97
Basic: 17
3 : Oddish, EX-122
3 : Mr. Mime, J-22
2 : Illumise, GE-71
2 : Volbeat, GE-92
2 : Unown G, GE-57
2 : Pichu, GS-28
1 : Azelf, LA-19
2 : Chansey, B-3

TRAINERS: 28
Trainers: 7
3 : Rare Candy, UL-82
4 : Pokegear 3.0, GS-96
Supporters: 19
3 : Professor Oak's New Theory, CL-83
4 : Celio's Network, CG-73
4 : Roseanne's Research, OP8-11
4 : Twins, TM-89
3 : Steven's Advice, PK-83
1 : Palmer's Contribution, SV-139
Stadiums: 2
2 : Burned Tower, UD-71

ENERGY: 10
Basic Energy: 10
10 : Psychic Energy, BW-109

Strategy: Mr Mime pokemon power says that basically unless u do 20 or less damage or you affect it with a special condition it will survive at least 1 turn. Using Cards such as vileplume to stop nasty trainers from happening, Unown G stops the Speicial Confition Nasty ness as well as damage counters, and blissey consistantly heals 20 damage from mr mime making MR MIME a tank. Even if it does very low damage, i never dies. Therefore you can either win by slowly drawing 6 prizes or decking out your opponent. My ideal starter is Pichu, which is why i use cards such as rosseannes, celios to hopefully get a T1 Playground which allows me to set up my board. Also if my opponent grabs a bunch of basics with pichu a T2 Stevens advice would be amazing. But overall you will probably fall behind in prizes then use pokegear to get the twins or have the twins already in hand to set up vileplume and then blissey and start the Tanking. The Illumise/Volbeat combo ensures me that i will never deck out as well have always cards to discard, combining with Palmers i can basically never deck out.

The usage of Burned Tower is basically another card thats allows me to counter nasty stadiums such as giant stump as well as allow me to always have something to discard with blisseys power. The rather high energy count for a deck that requires only a few energys is so that i have better odds of retreating my basic pokemon T1 to use pichu.

Alright, one of the few creative potentials I had in my mind. This amongst a few others I set in my mind as a very creative from an outside perspective. This list is quite good. I would have liked to see another Rare Candy for consistency purposes. I can say this deck isn't as consistent a Cyrus's build. But the deck as a whole is almost flawless. It defines what the Iron Chef competition is all about. This was a lot of fun to play with, and I truly wish I could actually play this deck at cities, I'd guarantee a win or two

Your score is as follows...
Deck -8/10
Creativity-10/10
Card Use-5/5
TOTAL=23





BUT wait, there was an Online Challenge portion.

The Score for that is as follows
Cyrus-2 Points
Goldedda-1 Point

I also inserted a special guest Judge. 2-Time World Champion, Jason "Ness" Klaczynski.
He had no idea who's list were who's, I just gave him him two lists and he graded the entries as the following.

Cyrus score is as follows...
Deck-10/10
Creativity-9/10
Card Use-5/5
TOTAL=24

Goldedda score is as follows...
Deck-10/10
Creativity-10/10
Card Use-5/5
TOTAL=25

The total of all scores from my judging, online matchup, and special guest Judge, the score is as follows.

CYRUS=49/53
GOLDEDDA=49/53

WE HAVE A TIE!

as I said, I have a challenge ready for this tie. But fans get a vote, what Challenge would you like the tie-breaker to be?

 

[Cyrus]

Did Ness include any rationale, or did he just post scores? I don't think I've ever seen two decks get such high scores in the same round.

Either way, would appreciate to get this tiebreaker round done ASAP, since I'll be gone from the 21st-30th. I don't know how much say I have in my own challenge, but I would enjoy something with a real "sudden death" feel.

 

[Jason]

Ness....



I am questioning you on your votes.

I really doubt Edmund is the one should get the full votes. If anyone that gets the full votes, it is Kettler - he is a very skilled and far more experienced in Unlimited.


Let me point out a few things wrong in Edmund's list, which more likely that you might deeply overlooked big time.

POKEMON: 22
Stage 2: 2
2 : Vileplume, UD-24
Stage 1: 3
2 : Blissey, PL-22
1 : Gloom, LA-97
Basic: 17
3 : Oddish, EX-122
3 : Mr. Mime, J-22
2 : Illumise, GE-71
2 : Volbeat, GE-92
2 : Unown G, GE-57
2 : Pichu, GS-28
1 : Azelf, LA-19
2 : Chansey, B-3

TRAINERS: 28
Trainers: 7
3 : Rare Candy, UL-82
4 : Pokegear 3.0, GS-96
Supporters: 19
3 : Professor Oak's New Theory, CL-83
4 : Celio's Network, CG-73
4 : Roseanne's Research, OP8-11
4 : Twins, TM-89
3 : Steven's Advice, PK-83
1 : Palmer's Contribution, SV-139
Stadiums: 2
2 : Burned Tower, UD-71

ENERGY: 10
Basic Energy: 10
10 : Psychic Energy, BW-109

No sableye/spiritombs but a PICHU? No computer search, Oak, Oracle, etc but contains inferior supporters?


Think again, Ness, THINK AGAIN.



THE TRUE WINNER IS KETTLER.

 

[Akane]

I don't see any contest here: to me, Cyrus is the very clear winner. He took better advantage of the format, every single card in the deck has an important purpose (something that I feel Goldedda's deck sorely lacked) and just at a glance it looks so much more consistent and creative (I still don't see how Goldedda got 10/10 in that area - somehow I almost get the feeling that you purposefully set the scores so there would be a tie).
I also want to know why Ness graded the decks as he did, and why he was part of the grading process overall. I see no reason for an extra tie challenge, when it's so painfully clear that Cyrus's deck is superior.

~Akane

 

[waynegg]

40 card deck, one Pokemon (as in only one copy of a single Pokemon in the deck), Neo Discovery to Hidden Legends, 3 day time limit.

There's your sudden death feel :thumb:

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Jason, isn't creativity the idea of not using the shortcut? Let's be honest, how is Spiritomb or Sableye even remotly creative?

Ness called the scores as close to mine as I thought he would. The score, imo, is exactly right. The reason Cyrus only got 9 while Goldedda got 10 was card selection. Goldedda didn't use the "obvious" cards like Pidgeot to grab everything. He used something slightly different, that's a fact.

The scoring is exactly correct. Ness does not have to explain his reasoing, he was used in the championship round for a different perspective.

@Wayne, that's interesting. I am leaning on "deck out."
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[Cyrus]

"Shortcut"? I would think the traditional "shortcut" for unlimited would be 4 oak, 4 cp search, and 4 erika with no Pidgeot or anything. When you factor in that only one person used Sableye/Spiritomb last round (me), and only one person used Pidgeot (Wayne...who also happened to have that Mr. Mime/Unown G idea), there isn't even precedent for it being an "anti-creative" move. Also, by the very nature of unlimited (i.e., not a metagame assumption, since it applies to so many things), you really do have to play these cards, or else you lose almost every game to veteran lists.

Either way, I hope that whatever we do, it is accompanied with a reasonable explanation on every level. At this point, is there no reason not to?

P.S. I actually have an easier idea to settle this, but only if Goldedda accepts:

I challenge Goldedda to one last best of five with these exact lists!

We had a huge ruling glitch in our first game that resulted in Goldedda Nurse Calling me twice a turn for many turns in a row, which actually resulted in him winning that game despite my Dark Gloom/Pidgeot strategy. We're both at fault since I didn't catch it, but I figured some added context would help.

For that reason, I offer that if I go 4-1 or 5-0 in the best of five series, then I win the tournament; if he goes 3-2 or better, then he wins it. This isn't about me being a jerk and "fighting with a hand tied behind my back" - I just want to prove that the actual online play score doesn't reflect what would have happened in real life (a table judge would've caught that faster than we did :redface.

If I lose it, then I forfeit my entry to the sudden death.

 

[Akane]

Jason, isn't creativity the idea of not using the shortcut? Let's be honest, how is Spiritomb or Sableye even remotly creative?

Ness called the scores as close to mine as I thought he would. The score, imo, is exactly right. The reason Cyrus only got 9 while Goldedda got 10 was card selection. Goldedda didn't use the "obvious" cards like Pidgeot to grab everything. He used something slightly different, that's a fact.

The scoring is exactly correct. Ness does not have to explain his reasoing, he was used in the championship round for a different perspective.

Except "slightly different" =/= always good. Those "obvious" cards you mention are, after all, obvious for a reason - they're always the huge consistency boosters/the cream of the crop in seach and draw/the "play them or lose" cards. Creativity with competition in mind is one thing, creativity for creativity's sake (e.g. using lesser used Trainers that are outclassed by other, better Trainers just for the sake of "being different") is something entirely different. Note goldedda's Burned Tower, Pichu and PokéGear (among others) as examples of this. These decks were, if I understand the rules correctly, to be designed for the Unlimited format and with competitive play in mind - and that's where Cyrus, in my opinion, excelled far beyond goldedda in this match-up.
Of course, I'm not trying to insult goldedda nor his deck in any way, nor am I trying to invalidate your or Ness's opinions; I'm just expressing my dissatisfaction with the scoring in this match.

And again, I'm keeping my request for Ness to explain his scoring. I'd like to hear his thought process in setting the scores, and which details specifically made him give out points. That "different perspective" you mention means virtually nothing if that perspective is just an empty score with nothing behind it.

Also, now that the illegal Nurse Call lock gameplay error has been brought to the table, I'm seconding Cyrus's request for a best-of-5 tiebreaker.

~Akane

 

[Vegeta ss4]

I did not know exactly the situation of one of the games, I am down for Cyrus's idea. I can't give a big explanation to your questions, right now. On the road and using my phone will not enable me to. I will later though
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[goldedda]

well i don't care how we are gonna result the tie breaker its up to u nathan how u want to resolve it, i am up for anything

 

[BrightRush]

It's really not fair if you make them play best out of 5. I thought the objective of the game was creativity and not "hate-teching" your opponent for victory. If anything come up with a creative sudden death challenge that requires less time?

@ Jason, You dont really understand Iron Chef. It's all about creativity and not copying ideas from past formats.

 

[Cyrus]

TBF, I don't think anyone's list is "hate-teched." Plus, hate-teching requires actually knowing what your opponent was going to use in the first place, which I'm pretty sure neither of us did.
Also, Mew with a tech Jynx in the same deck does not make for a "copied" idea. I think as far as my games in RS went, this is truly more of a Pidgeot Clutch deck at this point, rofl.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to hearing about the selected tiebreaker!

 

[Sceptile King]

WOW. Never would of thought of a tie. Great Job everyone! Keep it up!

 

[Vegeta ss4]

The tie-breaker was scheduled to be a 60 card deck, deck yourself 1st challenge. But, I feel a best of 3 is the best route. Since it is a tie, then I feel a clean slate in online gameplay is required.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[King Piplup]

The tie-breaker was scheduled to be a 60 card deck, deck yourself 1st challenge. But, I feel a best of 3 is the best route. Since it is a tie, then I feel a clean slate in online gameplay is required.
Posted with Mobile style...

Deck yourself? Or your opponent? Decking yourself would be whoever went first...

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Deck yourself? Or your opponent? Decking yourself would be whoever went first...

Yes, yourself. This challenge would have been interesting with a certain ban list of mine. Also, just because you go 1st doesn't mean anything. This challenge would have been a solo challenge.

 

[Cyrus]

The tie-breaker was scheduled to be a 60 card deck, deck yourself 1st challenge. But, I feel a best of 3 is the best route. Since it is a tie, then I feel a clean slate in online gameplay is required.
Posted with Mobile style...

Best of three with our decks from the final challenge? If so, I'll get in touch with Goldedda ASAP to schedule another series.

P.S. That "deck yourself" thing would've been nifty.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Yes, it would be best of 3 from the last Challenge.

I think the deck yourself would be interesting to. It was scheduled to actually be this Challenge. But I felt it was a bit silly for a championship round, but felt it was very acceptable for a tie-breaker(which I did NOT schedule on purpose:S)

---------- Post added 01/15/2012 at 02:30 PM ----------

Except "slightly different" =/= always good. Those "obvious" cards you mention are, after all, obvious for a reason - they're always the huge consistency boosters/the cream of the crop in seach and draw/the "play them or lose" cards. Creativity with competition in mind is one thing, creativity for creativity's sake (e.g. using lesser used Trainers that are outclassed by other, better Trainers just for the sake of "being different") is something entirely different. Note goldedda's Burned Tower, Pichu and PokéGear (among others) as examples of this. These decks were, if I understand the rules correctly, to be designed for the Unlimited format and with competitive play in mind - and that's where Cyrus, in my opinion, excelled far beyond goldedda in this match-up.
Of course, I'm not trying to insult goldedda nor his deck in any way, nor am I trying to invalidate your or Ness's opinions; I'm just expressing my dissatisfaction with the scoring in this match.

And again, I'm keeping my request for Ness to explain his scoring. I'd like to hear his thought process in setting the scores, and which details specifically made him give out points. That "different perspective" you mention means virtually nothing if that perspective is just an empty score with nothing behind it.

Also, now that the illegal Nurse Call lock gameplay error has been brought to the table, I'm seconding Cyrus's request for a best-of-5 tiebreaker.

~Akane

You are right, creativity for the sake of creativity is non competition like. But factor this in, there is NO metagame. These decks aren't too focus on its competitive level. Using said cards for a challenge that REQUIRED insane creativity will result in a lower score. I felt Goldedda did a better job of creativity, hands down. Which deck would I run in a tournament? Why that is simple...Cyrus's deck would be my obvious 1st choice. Cyrus has the upper hand in competiveness with his list. It is definitely more consistent than Goldedda's list.
I do not think Goldedda's use of Pichu is "anti-creative", at all. In fact to me it is the opposite. Sometimes a card used isn't creative, yet sometimes how the card is actually used is very creative. for example, Goldedda's build. Pichu is a 5th Mime imo, stalling. Which after all, is what this deck is all about.

About this whole, "Ness" situation. I will agree on your perspective of empty scoring. He did message me his score fairly quickly, but I have no reason to truly believe he would just give me empty scores like that.

 

[Cyrus]

I feel a little better about the creativity scoring now. I 100% stand by Spiritombs being necessary in a deck that makes trainer lock (or item lock) an integral part of the strategy, but Sableyes could have maybe gone for something else.

Unlimited is a very special format: one where my general assumption, regardless of metagame, is that if you don't go first, then you lose. But despite the huge number of decks capable of winning on the first turn, I can understand how these aren't considered a general threat - just the threat of being FTKO'd.

TL; DR: I should have just played two more Mentor and two more Oak. XD

P.S. I agree that Pichu has some creative use. "Status" is a general threat, so Pichu being able to fetch Unown G contributes to the strategy.

 

[goldedda]

congratulations to a great player, deck builder, and theoretical mind, cyrus you have displayed all of these qualities and deserve therefore the title of IRON CHEF. Thank you for having the patience to play the games with me and again i congratulate you on the win. I would also like to thank nathan for hosting such a wonderful event as well as Ness for grading our decklist. Overall i had a great time and i can;t wait for the next one