Deck Check Fail/Basic Energy Replacement Question

[eriknance]

Hey guys, I have a situation that presented itself with the State Championship I played in over the weekend. It's quite a specific situation, but I'm still curious about how (or even if) it would be handled by the judges. Let me go ahead and emphasize that I did not do what I'm about to explain. I can, however, see where others might. With that said, let me go ahead and explain.

I decided to play Durant for this tournament. Since I haven't playtested much lately and I don't have many cards from the Next Destinies set, I left Prism Energy out of my deck. I realized my mistake only after turning in my decklist. I then went on to play 7 rounds in the swiss, 5 of them against Zekrom/Eels. I still made the top cut, but I realized how important Prism Energy would have been for this matchup (Rotom can use it to KO a damaged Zekrom).

What I could have done before top cut is simple. By tossing out a card like Pokemon Catcher before turning my deck over to the judges, I would have been forced to replace it with a Basic Energy (after the deck check showed me having only 59 cards). The obvious choice is a Lightning Energy to help my Rotom beat up on some Zekroms. Here's the ruling reference below (found in the Penalty Guidelines):

7.3.2. Legal Decklist, Illegal Deck
If a player’s decklist meets the format restrictions and deck construction rules but the deck does not, the illegal cards must be removed from the deck, and the deck must be modified to match the decklist. The Head Judge should carefully consider what advantage, if any, was gained by the illegal deck. If the Head Judge feels that there was a significant advantage, elevating the penalty to a Game Loss may be necessary.
The exception to this is if cards are simply missing from the deck. This usually happens if the player and a previous opponent are using similar sleeves, if cards get stuck in the player’s deck box, or if cards are dropped on the floor. If the card is found, or the player can provide an identical card to replace the missing one, the player should be allowed to continue the event without further modifying the deck or the decklist. If the card cannot be found and the player cannot provide an identical card, the missing card should be replaced with a basic Energy card of the player’s choice, and the decklist should be modified to reflect the new contents of the deck. Either way, the penalty should still be issued.

The importance of that Basic Energy as a replacement is the real issue here. I can go from losing terribly to an easy win with a card that should have never been in my deck to begin with. I know this is a very specific scenario, but I can imagine other cases where this might happen.

So the question is: is this legal? How should it be handled? Etc. etc!?

 

[ShuckleLVX]

You want to intentionally create an illegal deck in order to get an advantage?

Definitely not legal, and were I to catch it, I would DQ you.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

I think they may know you're trying to boost your advantage since you didn't play with any lightning or prism before. Going from 0 lightning to 1 will look suspicious then putting 1 more metal energy.

 

[evil psyduck]

They may look at your deck and see what energy would give you an advantage. Then give you something else.

 

[psychup2034]

They may look at your deck and see what energy would give you an advantage. Then give you something else.

...the missing card should be replaced with a basic Energy card of the player’s choice.

Evil psyduck, as a judge, you would break the rules by disallowing a player to fill a missing card with a basic energy card of their choice? I know I wouldn't.

Eric, I think you bring up a valid point. Judges proxy for warped/damaged cards all the time. It's not unreasonable to proxy a missing card as well, assuming the rules were changed to allow this to happen.

 

[evil psyduck]

Evil psyduck, as a judge, you would break the rules by disallowing a player to fill a missing card with a basic energy card of their choice? I know I wouldn't.

Eric, I think you bring up a valid point. Judges proxy for warped/damaged cards all the time. It's not unreasonable to proxy a missing card as well, assuming the rules were changed to allow this to happen.

You need to learn to read. Where did i say i would do that? NOWHERE!!! :nonono: Don't even accuse me of something like that.

 

[eriknance]

You want to intentionally create an illegal deck in order to get an advantage?

Definitely not legal, and were I to catch it, I would DQ you.

If someone were to do this, they wouldn't be obvious about it though. There are a few things that a person can do to get away with it without being caught (toss out a catcher and create a 59-card deck, replace their Spiritomb with a Smeargle and just say they meant to write in Smeargle instead, etc.). Or, I can imagine a case where someone actually loses a card like Catcher, and when they're asked to put a Basic Energy in for their 60th card, they recognize the advantage a Lightning Energy can give them and go with it.

And to be clear, I am NOT talking about this because I think it's a good idea. Like I said above, I didn't do this because it's wrong — it's cheating. But the penalty guidelines I cited can easily lead to this very scenario. Is there anything in the Penalty Guidelines or Tournament Rules that is sort of an abstract "If you do something to gain an unfair advantage, it's wrong and you'll get penalized" to cover this?

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Hey guys, I have a situation that presented itself with the State Championship I played in over the weekend. It's quite a specific situation, but I'm still curious about how (or even if) it would be handled by the judges. Let me go ahead and emphasize that I did not do what I'm about to explain. I can, however, see where others might. With that said, let me go ahead and explain.

I decided to play Durant for this tournament. Since I haven't playtested much lately and I don't have many cards from the Next Destinies set, I left Prism Energy out of my deck. I realized my mistake only after turning in my decklist. I then went on to play 7 rounds in the swiss, 5 of them against Zekrom/Eels. I still made the top cut, but I realized how important Prism Energy would have been for this matchup (Rotom can use it to KO a damaged Zekrom).

What I could have done before top cut is simple. By tossing out a card like Pokemon Catcher before turning my deck over to the judges, I would have been forced to replace it with a Basic Energy (after the deck check showed me having only 59 cards). The obvious choice is a Lightning Energy to help my Rotom beat up on some Zekroms. Here's the ruling reference below (found in the Penalty Guidelines):



The importance of that Basic Energy as a replacement is the real issue here. I can go from losing terribly to an easy win with a card that should have never been in my deck to begin with. I know this is a very specific scenario, but I can imagine other cases where this might happen.

So the question is: is this legal? How should it be handled? Etc. etc!?

There's a few things I need to address before I get on to your main question, mainly that this kind of situation is very rarely exploitable.

-First of all if you realize that your decklist is incorrect, or you forgot something, then alert the event staff. The event staff aren't horrible demons that will spit acid in your face for a slight mix-up. They should allow you to replace the card to match the decklist.
-As the guidelines state an effort to replace the cards must first be made. In most cases the forgotten card should be fairly easy to come by, and unless it's a rare card, and even then some PTOs have people they can go to (like a judge that or player they know) that might be able to lend the card for the player, or they might send the player out to look for someone before the round ends. (The only occasion I could see this failing is over Mewtwo EX which then you've got other problems if you in fact lost it.)
The replacement only happens after this step fails, which isn't likely to happen.

As for the energy giving an unfair advantage. If it alters things that greatly then why weren't you playing it to begin with?

Can it lead to a potential abuse of the rules? Yes, but anything that alters the deck is bound to have consequences that can be abused. Basic energy just so happen to be the easiest and least abusive solution, since you could be playing that energy anyway.

 

[PokePop]

Your premise is wrong.

You are taking about creating a "legal decklist/illegal deck" scenario.
The solution to that, aside from any possible penalty (and a missing card would get a minor penalty), is to make the deck match the decklist.
Period.
Nothing about getting any choice of any basic energy card.
Trouble finding a replacement for the missing card? you're in the finals. People will be willing to lend you any card.
If for some reason, you decline borrowing a card.... well, that opens up "dubious game action" and DQ,

Edit: Lost my reply and by the time I reentered it, I've been ninja'd.

 

[Diaz]

^ and thats why he gets paid the big bucks

 

[psychup2034]

You need to learn to read. Where did i say i would do that? NOWHERE!!! :nonono: Don't even accuse me of something like that.

You need to learn to write with clarity. :nonono: I'm sorry for misinterpreting your words, but you wrote your comment in such an unclear way that it was easily misconstrued. Could you explain what you meant by "They may look at your deck and see what energy would give you an advantage. Then give you something else."? It's horribly unclear what you meant to say.

 

[eriknance]

Your premise is wrong.

You are taking about creating a "legal decklist/illegal deck" scenario.
The solution to that, aside from any possible penalty (and a missing card would get a minor penalty), is to make the deck match the decklist.
Period.
Nothing about getting any choice of any basic energy card.
Trouble finding a replacement for the missing card? you're in the finals. People will be willing to lend you any card.
If for some reason, you decline borrowing a card.... well, that opens up "dubious game action" and DQ,

Edit: Lost my reply and by the time I reentered it, I've been ninja'd.

Thanks PokePop, I see where this distinction is made for the "legal decklist/illegal deck" scenario in the guidelines. As stated above — and this is just hypothetical — suppose the "missing card" is something as rare as Mewtwo EX and it can't be replaced (a lot of times, when the top cut happens, people clear out). What happens then?

I'm also looking at the "illegal decklist/legal deck" section of the guidelines. Here's what they say:

7.3.1. Illegal Decklist, Legal Deck
If a player’s deck meets the format restrictions and deck construction rules but the decklist does not, the decklist should be made legal by replacing the illegal cards with basic Energy cards of the player’s choosing, if necessary. The deck should then be modified to reflect the changes.

Examples of Deck Problems: Illegal Decklist, Legal Deck include:

• In a Modified event, the decklist contains two copies of Pikachu (HS Undaunted, 61/90), but the deck contains two copies of Pikachu (HeartGold & SoulSilver, 78/123).
• The decklist contains five copies of Metal Energy (Special), but the deck contains four copies of Metal Energy (Special).
• The decklist contains more or less than sixty cards, but the deck contains exactly sixty cards.

On that first example listed, what's illegal about having two copies of UD Pikachu? If I understand that correctly, it refers to listing a different Pokemon than the one played. If I had NV Cobalion listed, then I could just replace it with the EP Cobalion and hope for the Basic Energy switch, right?

Also, I know this scenario seems rare. It can, however, be used to "legally" sneak a needed Basic Energy card into a deck and provide a dishonest player with an unfair advantage that wouldn't necessarily be caught by a judge. So I'm wondering if making the Basic Energy switch is the best solution we have for scenarios like this. Say I'm running a Terrakion tech in my Zekeels deck but I neglect to put in any Fighting Energy. If all of my Tynamo are the #39 ones, I can easily switch one with a #38 Tynamo and again hope for the Basic Energy switch.

I mean, is there any way for a judge to say to a player, "Hey, you can't replace that card with a Basic Lightning Energy because... well, I see what you're doing!"?

 

[PokePop]

On that first example listed, what's illegal about having two copies of UD Pikachu? If I understand that correctly, it refers to listing a different Pokemon than the one played. If I had NV Cobalion listed, then I could just replace it with the EP Cobalion and hope for the Basic Energy switch, right?

That's just an error in the example. Replace "UD Pikachu" with, oh say, "Base set Pikachu".

Also, I know this scenario seems rare. It can, however, be used to "legally" sneak a needed Basic Energy card into a deck and provide a dishonest player with an unfair advantage that wouldn't necessarily be caught by a judge. So I'm wondering if making the Basic Energy switch is the best solution we have for scenarios like this. Say I'm running a Terrakion tech in my Zekeels deck but I neglect to put in any Fighting Energy. If all of my Tynamo are the #39 ones, I can easily switch one with a #38 Tynamo and again hope for the Basic Energy switch.

Again, if you had the wrong card in the deck, but the decklist was legal, you don't get to replace it with an energy card. you have to get a correct Tynamo.
Additionally, if you were to slip an out of format card into the deck, the first question that Judges would have, at top cut deck check, is "how could none of his opponent's have not noticed this card was being played?"
It would quickly lead to the discovery that it was not played, and therefore why is it showing up now? DQ to follow.

I mean, is there any way for a judge to say to a player, "Hey, you can't replace that card with a Basic Lightning Energy because... well, I see what you're doing!"?

Here's a pro tip: Judges can do whatever they feel is needed in order to maintain the integrity of the event. Anything they want.
They may need to defend that action to Pokemon Organized Play, especially if they deviate from the guidelines (note: "Guidelines"). However, in the scenario you outline, that defense would be easy to make and it would be supported.

 

[eriknance]

^ and THAT'S why he gets paid the big bucks

(also, thanks for clarifying on that example error... it had me really confused)