"Declumping" a Deck
- Thread starter Ness
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baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
So if you see a random sequence, it is no longer random?
Nope, you're right - I don't understand. Reminds me a bit of that Schrodinger's cat thing.
K2theAblaM
New Member
Open and shut, black and white case the way I see it. As long as the deck is properly shuffled and cut.... or shuffled by both players and cut by the deck's owner, there's nothing wrong with "declumping".
Ness, you said it yourself you can arrange pokemon in the front of the deck when searching a deck, who's to say that's not stacking? I mean, your opponent can't see what you're doing... why is it any difference for someone to break up a stack of 3 rare candies in his deck when he's "searching for pokemon".
like I said, a properly shuffled deck is a properly shuffled deck. Everything short of that may be questionable but if both players take the precautionary efforts to ensure a fare shuffle, then there's nothing wrong with "declumping"
And as far as I'm concerned, the argument of "wasting time" is as frivolous as a player complaing about someone taking too long to search through their deck for prizes. There's absolutely no way of discerning a player "declumping" his deck or arranging pokemon in the front of the deck in order to make a correct decsion, (something that was already stated to be acceptable in this thread). If a player can "declump" their deck, and get what they need, AND check for prizes while they search in a timely manner, then absolutely zero attention should be brought upon this.
If they are taking too long to search through their deck, then the problem is the actual searching, not declumping since Ness has already stated that a proper shuffle should negate any effects of "declumping" in the first place.
Ness, you said it yourself you can arrange pokemon in the front of the deck when searching a deck, who's to say that's not stacking? I mean, your opponent can't see what you're doing... why is it any difference for someone to break up a stack of 3 rare candies in his deck when he's "searching for pokemon".
like I said, a properly shuffled deck is a properly shuffled deck. Everything short of that may be questionable but if both players take the precautionary efforts to ensure a fare shuffle, then there's nothing wrong with "declumping"
And as far as I'm concerned, the argument of "wasting time" is as frivolous as a player complaing about someone taking too long to search through their deck for prizes. There's absolutely no way of discerning a player "declumping" his deck or arranging pokemon in the front of the deck in order to make a correct decsion, (something that was already stated to be acceptable in this thread). If a player can "declump" their deck, and get what they need, AND check for prizes while they search in a timely manner, then absolutely zero attention should be brought upon this.
If they are taking too long to search through their deck, then the problem is the actual searching, not declumping since Ness has already stated that a proper shuffle should negate any effects of "declumping" in the first place.
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Dr. Mason
New Member
I don't have that kind of time to waste, and I'm really not interested in the previous content of the thread. I'm simply singling out this statement.
I don't think there's anything wrong with declumping. It's not against the rules, as far as I can tell, and as long as it isn't I'll probably keep doing it. Maybe it'll make my opponent uncomfortable--I might take that into consideration, as long as my opponent isn't also causing me equal discomfort.
If I was a judge, I'd simply remind the opponent that they may shuffle their opponent's deck.
The only issue to be had at that point is how long the action is taking. If the player does this every time, at length, and does not quicken his play time when asked to, I might consider THAT stalling. Stretching out any action for over moderate length would be stalling. But considering brief declumping stalling is like considering someone who gives their deck one extra shuffle stalling.
K2theAblaM
New Member
In this case, and all cases regarding cards, if you SEE what order they are, then they are no longer random because you have knowledge of what you will draw. This is why we shuffle every time we go into our decks.
What's not to understand?
Ness
Member
One is preparing choices a card is telling you to make. The other is an attempt to gain an unfair advantage. Re-read the thread.
Prof Clay
New Member
if you don't have time to understand the argument, then don't jump in the middle...
K2theAblaM
New Member
This guy gets it.
If it's done in a timely matter, who cares what I do when I search through my deck. You can't prove whether or not I'm separating pokemon for a Collector or declumping 3 rare candies. As long as I shuffle and you cut, or we both shuffle and I cut... whatever it takes for your opponent to be satisfied that your deck is completely random.
---------- Post added 11/03/2011 at 11:58 AM ----------
I have read the thread. Thanks.
And how is it an unfair advantage? please explain this because you yourself said that a proper shuffle negates any effects of declumping multiple times in this very thread.
Also, how is it wasting time when in fact, I have a allotted amount of time to make my decision anyways and I finish everything I need to do within that amount of time.
ADDITIONALLY, what happens if you stack 5 pokemon in front of you deck and you prepare yourself to make the best choice of the 5. Aren't you doing the reverse of declumping? Aren't you in fact, clumping your deck? maybe after the search, you don't need to draw any more basics so you decide to pile them up nice on the bottom of your deck and shuffle, knowing that since you don't shuffle well, you'll have a higher chance of NOT drawing the pokemon that you don't need. Isn't that the same concept that you're arguing against?
i would say so. And I would also argue that it won't matter because your deck is getting shuffled and cut to both players' satisfaction anyways, negating any effects of declumping AND clumping.
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K2theAblaM
New Member
I would object. And I think a lot of other people wouldn't like it either because it's not enforceable.
There is no way short of telepathy to differentiate between rearranging your deck and searching out pokemon
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Mystery Thing
Administrator
Because as soon as you attempt to change your mind on what card you're taking, you're now breaking the rules.
Ness
Member
I'm going to try a different approach to get my point across. One that focuses on the real world, and a practical game of Pokemon as its played all across the world. Let's see where everyone stands on this:
The reality of the Pokémon TCG is that midgame shuffles are rarely sufficient. (And when it is insufficient, your rearranging of cards can be maintained and that is unfair.) Research online tells us we need 6 riffles with good form to randomize a deck. Now, who here does 6+ riffles everytime they play a Pokemon Collector, Pokemon Communication, etc.? I'll admit I don't! And let's be real: do we even want to spend this much time shuffling? I think a lot of players (including me) realize this as an imperfect reality of the game caused by the 30 minute time limit and because of it, they (and I) allow their opponents to get away with some less than thorough shuffling. But if you're looking through your deck and quickly make your choices without memorizing the order of your cards or rearranging them as you choose, your opponent realizes you are not attempting to exploit any information or manipulate the deck, and will be forgiving of your brief shuffle and play on! Sure, maybe your first search took a bit longer because you wanted to see if you prized a particular card - no big deal, just do a more thorough shuffle that time. That way you don't retain any unfair knowledge about the order your cards were in.
If one person "saw the light" from this alternative, practical example, I will be satisfied. Does it makes sense to anyone yet?
The reality of the Pokémon TCG is that midgame shuffles are rarely sufficient. (And when it is insufficient, your rearranging of cards can be maintained and that is unfair.) Research online tells us we need 6 riffles with good form to randomize a deck. Now, who here does 6+ riffles everytime they play a Pokemon Collector, Pokemon Communication, etc.? I'll admit I don't! And let's be real: do we even want to spend this much time shuffling? I think a lot of players (including me) realize this as an imperfect reality of the game caused by the 30 minute time limit and because of it, they (and I) allow their opponents to get away with some less than thorough shuffling. But if you're looking through your deck and quickly make your choices without memorizing the order of your cards or rearranging them as you choose, your opponent realizes you are not attempting to exploit any information or manipulate the deck, and will be forgiving of your brief shuffle and play on! Sure, maybe your first search took a bit longer because you wanted to see if you prized a particular card - no big deal, just do a more thorough shuffle that time. That way you don't retain any unfair knowledge about the order your cards were in.
If one person "saw the light" from this alternative, practical example, I will be satisfied. Does it makes sense to anyone yet?
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Mystery Thing
Administrator
I'm still stuck at two minds about it. Even just knowing that you have 3 Rare Candy close to each other is in itself information. What if I notice said clump, intentionally do nothing about it (per the rules, morally, deceptively, whatever). You see it was a brief search and thus allow the maybe less than thorough shuffle. I now know that as soon as I hit 1 Rare Candy, chances are pretty good that a second and third won't be far behind. Is it a guarantee? Nope, but it's still information I have that you don't.
Even putting aside pro-declump vs anti-declump, as soon as you go into your deck for something, barring a massive complete shuffle there is at least some chance that you're going to come up with extra information.
Even putting aside pro-declump vs anti-declump, as soon as you go into your deck for something, barring a massive complete shuffle there is at least some chance that you're going to come up with extra information.
Ness
Member
Which is why I say your search should be focused on the task at hand: getting your Pokémon. But yes, I understand - you may occasionally have something pop up and catch your attention - 4 Pokémon Catcher next to each other, for example. If something like that catches your attention, then go ahead and give it a few more shuffles and randomize the deck.
This system isn't perfect - you could argue that the things that don't catch a player's attention are more likely to be a favorable distribution of cards and by not doing a thorough shuffle, he is maintaining some degree of a favorable pattern, but I think that is to such a trivial degree that even the pickiest of players (including me) will accept it.
K2theAblaM
New Member
I'm glad you posted this.
You've effectively diverted the issue from "declumping" towards proper SHUFFLING.
What can we do to effectively SHUFFLE BETTER. There's no way of policing and enforcing any rules that governs how a player searches through their deck. There SHOULD be rules about randomization and proper shuffling so each player is satisfied with the randomization of a deck after a search.... and guess what. There are.
You shuffle and I cut. Or you shuffle, then I shuffle, then you cut.
I don't know about you, but I can riffle 6 times pretty easily when I shuffle. Actually, I riffle about 5-8 times, and then I strip twice and riffle once more for good measure, EVERY time I go into my deck, and then offer the cut. It's habit now, and part of my muscle memory to do so. If I feel like your deck isn't properly shuffled, then I will be shuffling your deck and offering you the cut. You're welcomed to do the same to my deck so long as you don't bridge or bend the cards.
This is how is should work.
---------- Post added 11/03/2011 at 12:48 PM ----------
How valuable is this "new information" after your deck gets properly shuffled and cut.
Not very valuable I feel.
Except that the card(s) is(are) telling you to know that information. "Search your deck" means just that- you search through your deck. Whether you end that search at the first card, the last card, or somewhere in the middle is irrelevant- you are looking through your deck. The thread isn't about knowledge of contents, but knowledge of what the contents are altered to look like.
By noticing there are 3 Rare Candies, as the example everyone is using, alls that is being accomplished is confirming prior questions- "Why didn't I draw my rare candies?". Well now you know why. The deck will be shuffled and you can re-ask that question as you do or don't draw them.
By noticing there are 3 Rare Candies together and splitting them up, you are accomplishing two things. First, what is said above. Second, you are hoping that they stay split apart after all is said and done. If you succeed, you've cheated. You've attempted to influence the deck to produce a controlled result over a random result. To be more specific, you elminated any card combination that included RareCandy-RareCandy-RareCandy in it's lineup. If you fail to accomplish your goal, you've wasted time, no matter how long, in failing to influence the deck. It's wasting time because the Shuffle effect should negate all known positions of the cards in the deck anyway, so the action you've taken was utterly pointless. Knowing what's there is one thing, but knowing what's there and trying to manipulate order is an enitrely different thing altogether.
You still don't get it.
If you shuffle better there is no need to declump as they will get randomized by your shuffling. The fact is declumping is just pointless. If you shuffle bad it is possible you are cheating and if you shuffle well it was pointless.
K2theAblaM
New Member
If it's pointless then why do you care if I do it or not. Just let me be.
I might want to declump for any reason in the world. I might even be superstitious about it and not like my rare candies next to energies. Maybe I think cleffa looks extra cute sitting next to an Elm's training method when I search. It doesn't matter.
All that matters to YOU is that my deck is properly shuffled and I haven't taken more time that is allotted to me when I perform a search.
I'll decide if what I do is "pointless" or not.
Also, if for any reason you feel your opponent's shuffle isn't adequate enough, then by all means ask to shuffle it yourself. There are rules for this, ya know. No player should ever feel that their opponent's deck isn't properly shuffled at any point in the match. It's your own due diligence to shuffle if you feel your opponent isn't doing a good enough job shuffling their deck.
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