Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Derail vs. Reactive Recharge

NoPoke

NoPoke

Active Member
mewchou (unanswed q in ask the masters) said:
LM Machamp vs. LM Magneton - Machamp uses Derail doing enough damage to KO Magneton. Does Machamp get to discard a Special Energy card (React) from Magneton before Magneton's power moves it to another Pokemon?

Reactive Recharge (Poke-POWER) - If Magneton would be Knocked Out by damage from an opponent's attack, you may move any number of React Energy cards from Magneton to your Pokemon in any way you like.

Derail (Attack) - 40 damage, Discard a Special Energy card, if any, attached to the Defending Pokemon.
Click to expand...

Obviously tricky since it is still unanswered.

I was trying to figure out how I'd rule if I was judge. Guess what I couldn't decide at what point Reactive Recharge operates in the attack. :The moment the 40 damage is placed or later after the effects of Derail have been resolved. You can even make a case for Reactive Recharge being triggered PRIOR to the damage being placed but after the attack was announced.

A further wrinkle occured to me in that does the attacking player have to specify which special energy they want to discard as part of "making all necessary choices" prior to doing damage. This would leave the way open for the defending player to choose to move just that particular selected energy! *ouch*

thoughts please.
 
Derail goes first and deals the damage and the effect, after that you see Magneton is knocked out, then you ca nuse the power.

Am I right?
 
Matias why?

cloud9tcg: are you right? I have no idea!

For some years now I've been taking the simultaneous / untimed / unsequenced view when trying to resolve such conflicts. Where a conflict still remains it is resolved by letting the affected cards' owner choose the order.

I was under the impression that current game theory is to avoid a sequenced or prioritised approach to resolving such questions.
 
I thought that all of the effects of an attack had to be worked out. For example, Lanturn HL vs Blastoise ex. I thought there was a ruling that said that you got to still flip for the energy removal, and then KO the Lanturn?

Something like that.
 
ninetales: trust me the rule book doesn't answer the question. If it did then this question and similar ones regarding timing would have been answered already.

btw what do you think will happen in the scenario posed by mewchou.. No Fence sitting alowed! *grin*
 
I looked up one of my favorite cards, Jumpluff, in the compendium.
Q. Let's say Charizard-EX uses "Burn Down" on a Jumpluff. Would Jumpluff get to use it's "Buffer" or not (because "Burn Down" is not affected by Poké-Bodies)?
A. The Burn Down attack is not affected because Buffer does not kick in until *after* Burn Down has done all its damage. However, after Burn Down has done its mega damage, Buffer kicks in and if successful would get to remove damage counters from Jumpluff until 10 HP are left. (Feb 17, 2005 PUI Rules Team)

Section "g" in the order of attack section of the rulebook says that first you do damage (e.g. 40 damage from derail) and then you apply other effects (e.g. discard special energy card). Reactive Recharge kicks in as soon as you figure out that Magneton would be knocked out.

First 40 damage, then Reactive Recharge, then discard a special energy card attached to Magneton.

"Reactive Recharge" does not fall under "e" (apply any effects that might alter or cancel the attack), because it, like "Buffer" does not alter the attack. The compendium makes it clear that "Buffer" does not alter your opponent's attack; "Reactive Recharge" appears to be the same.

But, let's not worry. I'm sure the rules team will figure it out, and whatever ruling they come up with, there will be some principle behind it, as Pokemon is a game of principle.
 
ninetales1234 said:
First 40 damage, then Reactive Recharge, then discard a special energy card attached to Magneton..
Click to expand...

That would be the Wotc era answer. Folow a specified sequence. Nicely detailed answer btw :clap:

My current answer would be that everything happens at once. Damage and effects occur together. Since there are two effects affecting the defending pokemon the defending player gets to choose the order of their resolution. So in practice I end up with the same result but using a very different approach. (In this particular case since reactive recharge is optional it is not possible to distinguish the two approaches. Phew!)

ninetales1234 said:
But, let's not worry. I'm sure the rules team will figure it out, and whatever ruling they come up with, there will be some principle behind it, as Pokemon is a game of principle.
Click to expand...

I read the questions in Ask The Masters. I read them from the perspective of having just been asked that particular question at a tournament so as a judge I have to give a reply. And probably a justification for my reply too. Handing out a decision is easy, justifying it may not be.

There has been an outbreak of timing and targetting questions. The recent Devo Crush rulling I find problematic as it undermines my understanding of current game theory. I don't much care for the Disconnect rulling either but at least it is merely an extension. In the past effects were done to pokemon, and if an effect persisted then it had to reside on a pokemon. Because of Disconnect we now have several questions regarding targeting, a concept that was irrelevant with a pokemon centric view of the game. Devo Crush raised the issue not only of timing but also of what happens when a pokemon is knocked out.

Am I ......Worried? No. Concerned? Yes. Wierd? Definately.
 
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What about first complete anything the attacking Pokemon has to "perform", after that effects on the defending. Which is this case is a power.
So do 40 and Derail, than check the defending on what effects might be there to use.

Is there no rule that a KO pokemon is replaced only after all effects of attack took place (like the in between ruling)


It's kind of simular with blastoise ex, first you flip if there are nrg cards to be discarded and if the opponent has a EXP all in play that would only trigger after finishing the flips and if there are basic nrg remaining.
 
There are certainly several rullings that would have the attacking player complete everything before any of the opponents effects . A post by DukeFireBird adds the additional sequence that is not part of our rule book in step g). ref http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=627668&postcount=7 but then maybe not ref bangiras http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=627689&postcount=8 if all effects are given equal priority after the damage is dealt.

Yes the rulebook does say that replacing KOd pokemon is the very last thing that is done as part of resolving an attack.

But then there is the recent Devo Crush ruling and a general trend away from a sequenced view to consider too. Especially that Devo Crush rulling.
 
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I believe it is as follows:

1)Calculate damage. Since after calculations are complete, the pokemon is knocked out, activate the power.
2)Use any remaining effects of the attack. (irrelevant in this case)

So, like if I KO a gengar with my Kabutops delta's life drain, and kabutops is 10hp from KO himself, will the damage counters be removed first or will Gengar be able to KO kabutops? I'd say....

1)Calculate damage. Since after calculations are complete, the pokemon is knocked out, activate the power.
2)Use any remaining effects of the attack. (irrelevant in this case)
 
I think that you would check for KO only after the attack has been resolved. So, in spite of the damage being high enough for a KO, you don't "figure it out" until after the effect has been applied.

But this is just a gut feeling I can't really back up.
 
Look into the rulebook. It says something like this:

Do the attack. Do any damange first, then do any other effects, and finally, knock out all pokemon with to much damage.

Sound like a very clear order.
 
Machamp does it damage and effect from attack. Then you see, Magneton is knocked out. Then it can use it's power =D
 
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