Rainbowgym
Active Member
What can you give away if you don't recieve any support.
That's the point.
Why is it growing in the US, meaby because of the support.
That's the point.
Why is it growing in the US, meaby because of the support.
Discussion of City Championship TO compensation
- Thread starter mtjimmer
- Start date
Unqualified?
Phil -
No one is saying there aren't problems. I was saying something else. However, I'm glad that finally some premier events aren't ONLY going to PTO (or some less interested but commercially enabled party).
But is POP doing what I gather you are saying? Giving a bunch of raw people the control? Don't name names, but do say if that is what you mean...people who shouldn't be organizing _are_ getting the City Championships. Is that true?
'snore
GymLeaderPhil said:
Phil -
No one is saying there aren't problems. I was saying something else. However, I'm glad that finally some premier events aren't ONLY going to PTO (or some less interested but commercially enabled party).
But is POP doing what I gather you are saying? Giving a bunch of raw people the control? Don't name names, but do say if that is what you mean...people who shouldn't be organizing _are_ getting the City Championships. Is that true?
'snore
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GymLeaderPhil
New Member
Here's what I'm trying to say about CCs... POP is giving anyone the chance to organize a small local tournament that will effect a larger event (States). Anyone could sign up for a City Championships and anyone can easily submit false results. It's like we're jumping DCI Rule Enforcement Levels from 1 to 5 from CC to SC. Awarding byes at such an open and new atmosphere can cause problems. It's not that all new TOs shouldn't be running City Championships, its not that at all. The problem is the bye, it's going to come back and haunt PTOs at States, just like Mondellio did.bulbasnore said:
-Phil
Oh no, are we going to have to deal with byes again!?!. After the second (I think) ECSTS, the only big Pokemon tourney with byes, I was so annoyed with them that I started the "Problem with byes at the ECSTS" thread in response to them. For those who don't know, the byes allowed, because there was a max of 3 allowed and because of the insane opponent win/loss percentage given, a person with a 5-1 record (plus their 3 wins in byes) to advance to the finals. Also, it kicked, if I am not mistaken, 5 players with a much better "honest" 8-1 record out of the top eight. And then the Mondiello situtation broke.... Byes made that tournament a mockery of the scoring system, and an unfair tournament for those who didn't play an ungodly amount of sanctioned tourneys. And PUSA has decided to bring them back?!? Well, that seems to be par for the course with the website and tournament software...
GymLeaderPhil said:
OK thanks. Not going to talk about the wisdom of a bye. That is definitely a good subject, though.
>>POP is giving anyone the chance to organize a small local tournament that will effect a larger<<
GOOD. Guess we disagree, but I see this as good for the game and the players, at least in my corner of the world. I'm going to assume that the application and references meant something, such that anyone can apply but not everyone can qualify.
>>Anyone could sign up for a City Championships<<
GOOD again. Gone are the days when expert players and good organizers had to stand by and watch while someone flubbed their local qualifier, because they were deemed commercially unsuitable. You are a PKMN fan & expert. Most of those who ran the old qualifiers were not. I'm willing to bet most of the CC TOs will be more like you than the old qualifier TOs.
>>and anyone can easily submit false results<<
BAD. They'd best not. There is trust in any such enterprise. The ranking system depends on it, e.g.
>>The problem is the bye, it's going to come back and haunt PTOs at States, just like Mondellio did.<<
Cheaters will get their TCG selves stove in just like Mondiello did. There are perhaps other probs with the bye that can be discusssd elsewhere. I don't want to take the CC away from the local organizers just for this possibility.
Cheers,
'snore.
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ukpokemonpro
New Member
Seen it happen under WotC no reason it won't happen now!
GymLeaderPhil posted -
Bulbasnore... have you judged or been a tournament organizer in the last few months? Have you had to deal with the problems that associate with any sanctioned tournament, let alone a premiere event? Yes, we know that Pokemon Organized Play is proposing and promising all these great bi-monthly premiere events, we know that 15+ players are back, blah, blah, blah... but put yourself in a TO's position. Running a large scale event every other month WITHOUT support. The fact is that more and more players are flocking into local events, but there is a stedy decrease of staff to organize these events. Why? Because POP support for TOs and judges has not improved since October. I cant say this any other way, I've repeated it time and time again, little has been done to improve support.
Now POP is giving the power of byes to nearly a 100 City Championship locations. Giving the power of a bye to a tournament organizer who could have never sanctioned an event before in his or her life. Giving the responsability of an advertised event to a new person. This new tournament organizer will have to go through the same conflicts as premiere tournament organizers did in the last few months. All of those locations, majority of them resulting in success, but there will be plenty that run into trouble. Software dropping players. Prize support arriving days after the event. Lack of instructions.
-Phil
Here's what I'm trying to say about CCs... POP is giving anyone the chance to organize a small local tournament that will effect a larger event (States). Anyone could sign up for a City Championships and anyone can easily submit false results. It's like we're jumping DCI Rule Enforcement Levels from 1 to 5 from CC to SC. Awarding byes at such an open and new atmosphere can cause problems. It's not that all new TOs shouldn't be running City Championships, its not that at all. The problem is the bye, it's going to come back and haunt PTOs at States, just like Mondellio did.
-Phil
Have you had to deal with the problems that associate with any sanctioned tournament, let alone a premiere event?What problems are you talking about that a TO or PTO has to deal with. Specifics please. The only problem I have is getting enough players on an off night to sanction. The big tournament each week I play in.
Running a large scale event every other month WITHOUT support
Without support. Who are you trying to fool if your talking a premiere level event? If you're talking about a local event there has never been support in this game for that. If you're talking about an upper level event I know better. I do know what a PTO gets/has got for the prereleases & that's some dang pretty good support.
but there is a stedy decrease of staff to organize these events. Why? Because POP support for TOs and judges has not improved since October. I cant say this any other way, I've repeated it time and time again, little has been done to improve supportYou're right there is less staff but only in some cases. Again at a local level I find that for now I'd rather play to test decks so therefore I can't TO or judge. This could be solved if the 3 judge, 8-16 player rule was allowed again. Under WotC another TO & I alternated so we could play some once it went to where we couldn't TO if we played. Now under PUSA he said he's applied 9 times for a TO but hasn't got anything back yet from them. That's another story in itself that I don't think PUSA is at fault in. Again what support are you asking for and increased what way? PM me if you have to.
POP is giving anyone the chance to organize a small local tournament that will effect a larger event (States). Anyone could sign up for a City Championships and anyone can easily submit false results.
May happen AGAIN. It has happened already at one of the pre-releases that false results were sent in. I'm not talking about recording a win as a loss. I'm talking about falsifying the tournament report to reflect that there was about 40 more people in the tournament that what played. Yes some of them could've dropped out after getting their packs but 40+ of them. I KNOW better than that. Some were actually at another store playing a different card game but were listed as being there. There is also at least 1 case that I know of where the person had pre-registered then came down sick & did not go. He shows to have played 3 rounds & lost each round. Funny thing about it too. His name was drawn & won the big prize they were giving away at the event.
Awarding byes at such an open and new atmosphere can cause problems. It's not that all new TOs shouldn't be running City Championships, its not that at all. The problem is the bye, it's going to come back and haunt PTOs at States, just like Mondellio did.
I an running one of these & I also ran 200+ sanctioned events for WotC. Sure there will be some new ones who don't hace a clue but the same thing happened under WotC. Even at the last SBZ there were TO's chosen who never ran a tournament before.
And the bye thing. You seem to have a real problem with that. A 1 round bye! 1 Round! If I remember right with Mondellio the bye "award" then was for 3 rounds. Thats quite a bit different in # of bye rounds & level of event.
I have no problem with the 1 round bye for the winner. In case no one has really looked, when running the same tournament using DCI reporter & the current Tournament Manager programs, while the win/loss points are the same, the tiebreaker points are NOT the same. On 1 tournament I was at that both were ran concurrently, I was in 2nd on one & 5th on the other based on the difference of the tiebreaker points. Something wrong somewhere.
Bulbasnore... have you judged or been a tournament organizer in the last few months? Have you had to deal with the problems that associate with any sanctioned tournament, let alone a premiere event? Yes, we know that Pokemon Organized Play is proposing and promising all these great bi-monthly premiere events, we know that 15+ players are back, blah, blah, blah... but put yourself in a TO's position. Running a large scale event every other month WITHOUT support. The fact is that more and more players are flocking into local events, but there is a stedy decrease of staff to organize these events. Why? Because POP support for TOs and judges has not improved since October. I cant say this any other way, I've repeated it time and time again, little has been done to improve support.
Now POP is giving the power of byes to nearly a 100 City Championship locations. Giving the power of a bye to a tournament organizer who could have never sanctioned an event before in his or her life. Giving the responsability of an advertised event to a new person. This new tournament organizer will have to go through the same conflicts as premiere tournament organizers did in the last few months. All of those locations, majority of them resulting in success, but there will be plenty that run into trouble. Software dropping players. Prize support arriving days after the event. Lack of instructions.
-Phil
Here's what I'm trying to say about CCs... POP is giving anyone the chance to organize a small local tournament that will effect a larger event (States). Anyone could sign up for a City Championships and anyone can easily submit false results. It's like we're jumping DCI Rule Enforcement Levels from 1 to 5 from CC to SC. Awarding byes at such an open and new atmosphere can cause problems. It's not that all new TOs shouldn't be running City Championships, its not that at all. The problem is the bye, it's going to come back and haunt PTOs at States, just like Mondellio did.
-Phil
Have you had to deal with the problems that associate with any sanctioned tournament, let alone a premiere event?What problems are you talking about that a TO or PTO has to deal with. Specifics please. The only problem I have is getting enough players on an off night to sanction. The big tournament each week I play in.
Running a large scale event every other month WITHOUT support
Without support. Who are you trying to fool if your talking a premiere level event? If you're talking about a local event there has never been support in this game for that. If you're talking about an upper level event I know better. I do know what a PTO gets/has got for the prereleases & that's some dang pretty good support.
but there is a stedy decrease of staff to organize these events. Why? Because POP support for TOs and judges has not improved since October. I cant say this any other way, I've repeated it time and time again, little has been done to improve supportYou're right there is less staff but only in some cases. Again at a local level I find that for now I'd rather play to test decks so therefore I can't TO or judge. This could be solved if the 3 judge, 8-16 player rule was allowed again. Under WotC another TO & I alternated so we could play some once it went to where we couldn't TO if we played. Now under PUSA he said he's applied 9 times for a TO but hasn't got anything back yet from them. That's another story in itself that I don't think PUSA is at fault in. Again what support are you asking for and increased what way? PM me if you have to.
POP is giving anyone the chance to organize a small local tournament that will effect a larger event (States). Anyone could sign up for a City Championships and anyone can easily submit false results.
May happen AGAIN. It has happened already at one of the pre-releases that false results were sent in. I'm not talking about recording a win as a loss. I'm talking about falsifying the tournament report to reflect that there was about 40 more people in the tournament that what played. Yes some of them could've dropped out after getting their packs but 40+ of them. I KNOW better than that. Some were actually at another store playing a different card game but were listed as being there. There is also at least 1 case that I know of where the person had pre-registered then came down sick & did not go. He shows to have played 3 rounds & lost each round. Funny thing about it too. His name was drawn & won the big prize they were giving away at the event.
Awarding byes at such an open and new atmosphere can cause problems. It's not that all new TOs shouldn't be running City Championships, its not that at all. The problem is the bye, it's going to come back and haunt PTOs at States, just like Mondellio did.
I an running one of these & I also ran 200+ sanctioned events for WotC. Sure there will be some new ones who don't hace a clue but the same thing happened under WotC. Even at the last SBZ there were TO's chosen who never ran a tournament before.
And the bye thing. You seem to have a real problem with that. A 1 round bye! 1 Round! If I remember right with Mondellio the bye "award" then was for 3 rounds. Thats quite a bit different in # of bye rounds & level of event.
I have no problem with the 1 round bye for the winner. In case no one has really looked, when running the same tournament using DCI reporter & the current Tournament Manager programs, while the win/loss points are the same, the tiebreaker points are NOT the same. On 1 tournament I was at that both were ran concurrently, I was in 2nd on one & 5th on the other based on the difference of the tiebreaker points. Something wrong somewhere.
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meganium45
Active Member
Open Mouth, insert foot
I read my post, and realize I should have stayed away from International OP entirely.
Yes, there is a huge discrepancy, and I have no real idea what is going on.
My apologies to who I offended with the post. When I see you at worlds, which I hope I will, I will personally apologize to you, and I will make sure to bring extra promos to deal out if you STILL don't have them.
You are right, for better or worse, I am worried about the US problem, and the dissention that appears to be happening over here.
Sorry for the take, my bad.
Megamium45
I read my post, and realize I should have stayed away from International OP entirely.
Yes, there is a huge discrepancy, and I have no real idea what is going on.
My apologies to who I offended with the post. When I see you at worlds, which I hope I will, I will personally apologize to you, and I will make sure to bring extra promos to deal out if you STILL don't have them.
You are right, for better or worse, I am worried about the US problem, and the dissention that appears to be happening over here.
Sorry for the take, my bad.
Megamium45
Missed this my first time through....meganium45 said:
Maybe someone stepping up isn't the problem. Maybe it's finding a location with minimal knowledge about the event (could get a room at the library if there is no charge (per library rules no fees/admission/dues can be collected (but that rule's been broken before....))). Then a laptop is needed (would hate to run something this big manually) (not even going to touch the software). So 3 things are really needed - someone, someplace and someway to run software. Without all 3.....
Rainbowgym
Active Member
Apologies accepted M45, but sometimes we overhere feel like not existing in this game, while we have such good players.
If there are side-events at the Worlds I'll be there take me word for that. If we meet there I, only want to challenge you for a game, because that's why I'm into Pokemon. Or have a good conversation about getting this game into a higher level.
I'm just "fighting" for my Kids (players) to get a fair change to earn an invitation for Worlds, Promo's, CC or anything I think they deserve.
Old Man -
quote
Running a large scale event every other month WITHOUT support
Without support. Who are you trying to fool if your talking a premiere level event? If you're talking about a local event there has never been support in this game for that. If you're talking about an upper level event I know better. I do know what a PTO gets/has got for the prereleases & that's some dang pretty good support.
end quote
This is exactly what is was asking about in another Topic.
What is an upper level event ? A Pre-release??? Your kidding.
To fresh up your mind, I did a pre-release with 54 players and and the only support we had was 2 boosters each player. That made 108 boosters, so if we had given the #1 of each agegroup a boosterbox there was nothing left for #2, and #3 etc.
Don't tell me we should have bought boosters, because we were not allowed to buy a single one.
Heads were counted by the distributor, then he counted out the boosters needed for playing + 108 prices and he left.
Nothing for the Judges or PTO NOTHING at all. (sorry we got 1 prerelease card each)
I don't mind if there is nothing for me as PTO but judges are needed and theyalso want those new cards.
So what are you talking about a pretty good support.
And don't blaim me to put a straight line between the US and the rest of the World.
Because the (P)TO's overhere did the same job as you overthere. and the players should have the same changes.
If there are side-events at the Worlds I'll be there take me word for that. If we meet there I, only want to challenge you for a game, because that's why I'm into Pokemon. Or have a good conversation about getting this game into a higher level.
I'm just "fighting" for my Kids (players) to get a fair change to earn an invitation for Worlds, Promo's, CC or anything I think they deserve.
Old Man -
quote
Running a large scale event every other month WITHOUT support
Without support. Who are you trying to fool if your talking a premiere level event? If you're talking about a local event there has never been support in this game for that. If you're talking about an upper level event I know better. I do know what a PTO gets/has got for the prereleases & that's some dang pretty good support.
end quote
This is exactly what is was asking about in another Topic.
What is an upper level event ? A Pre-release??? Your kidding.
To fresh up your mind, I did a pre-release with 54 players and and the only support we had was 2 boosters each player. That made 108 boosters, so if we had given the #1 of each agegroup a boosterbox there was nothing left for #2, and #3 etc.
Don't tell me we should have bought boosters, because we were not allowed to buy a single one.
Heads were counted by the distributor, then he counted out the boosters needed for playing + 108 prices and he left.
Nothing for the Judges or PTO NOTHING at all. (sorry we got 1 prerelease card each)
I don't mind if there is nothing for me as PTO but judges are needed and theyalso want those new cards.
So what are you talking about a pretty good support.
And don't blaim me to put a straight line between the US and the rest of the World.
Because the (P)TO's overhere did the same job as you overthere. and the players should have the same changes.
Rainbowgym - Sorry I was not referring to outside the U.S. I do understand there are BIG problems there and it seems to be with an event of any size outside the U.S.
What I was talking about here was Phil's post about lacking support. Sorry, I was just comparing here & not there. I know too little about there & only somewhat more here.
What I was talking about here was Phil's post about lacking support. Sorry, I was just comparing here & not there. I know too little about there & only somewhat more here.
Rainbowgym
Active Member
I know, I know but as when the talking goes over Support etc. I evolve to a stage 1 Porcupine and then to a stage 2 Firespitting Dragon with smoke out of my ears.
Gym Leader Blaine
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/member.php?u=15
meganium45 said:
So I am. I have been a PTO since the start of PUI tournament. I also ran two of the SBZ. If you compair what WOTC did for the TOs with the SBZ and PUI is doing with the City Championships. PUI is way better.