Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

DQed from regionals and BANNED two weeks later (I was set-up)

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If you think someone is cheating and you're checking to see if they do it again why would you let them know you're watching them? If you tell someone you think they're cheating and that you're going to be watching them they're more than likely going to stop, so you wouldn't be able to catch them in the act.

Because chances are, 9 times out of 10, they're not cheating and you want to make sure they know they're being watched BEFORE they go and cheat. It's like how so many businesses have cameras up but almost NONE of those businesses even have them on or functioning. Heck, my local game shop has cameras up that don't even have POWER to them let alone record anything. It works.

Why go and LET it get to the point where it could be confused with cheating? Just let them get the warning first. It's basic common sense.
 
In one of my matches at regionals when my opponent was shuffling a judge came over and said hey, I'm not saying you're cheating but you can't shuffle like that. You could see the cards. When my opponent did it again, the judges gave them a warning.
 
If you think someone is cheating and you're checking to see if they do it again why would you let them know you're watching them? If you tell someone you think they're cheating and that you're going to be watching them they're more than likely going to stop, so you wouldn't be able to catch them in the act.

Are judges to be concerned with minimize cheating or punishing it?

This is an honest question. If the goal is supposed to be catching cheaters and nothing else matters, then of course the judges should never warn anyone about anything - merely wait for enough violations to occur. Of course that wouldn't be very fun and would terrify most players - anything that could be perceived as wrong would still count against you (even the best judges are not perfect or all knowing).

I know I want those cheating to be caught and appropriately dealt with, but I also know that I do not want to punish the innocent as well. Then there is the matter of what is simply feasible - we could insist all games be played on some elaborate automated set up (or perhaps with a variation of the PTCGO) to prevent cheating, but think of the cost; clearly that is ridiculous.
 
In one of my matches at regionals when my opponent was shuffling a judge came over and said hey, I'm not saying you're cheating but you can't shuffle like that. You could see the cards. When my opponent did it again, the judges gave them a warning.

This. This is how it should be done.

Are judges to be concerned with minimize cheating or punishing it?

This is an honest question. If the goal is supposed to be catching cheaters and nothing else matters, then of course the judges should never warn anyone about anything - merely wait for enough violations to occur. Of course that wouldn't be very fun and would terrify most players - anything that could be perceived as wrong would still count against you (even the best judges are not perfect or all knowing).

I know I want those cheating to be caught and appropriately dealt with, but I also know that I do not want to punish the innocent as well. Then there is the matter of what is simply feasible - we could insist all games be played on some elaborate automated set up (or perhaps with a variation of the PTCGO) to prevent cheating, but think of the cost; clearly that is ridiculous.

I agree entirely with this statement.
 
The perception can fail with a single person. That's why several Judges on this thread have pointed out why it's important to get a second opinion, to establish intent. Let's look back at the accusation...

I was told by Pokepop two of his judges had claimed to see me look under the bottom of my deck throughout the tournament all through Swiss rounds.

The main purpose of the cut is so that the shuffler doesn't know what the top (or bottom) card is. Done properly, there is no physical way that a player should see the bottom card.

So what in the world was Gino doing with his hand/deck, to give two Judges the impression that he was looking at the bottom? And why would it be acceptable to go to an accomplished and experienced player and say, "hey, try not to look at the bottom of your deck after the cut, mkay?"

That just shouldn't be even ACCIDENTALLY happening.
 
Because chances are, 9 times out of 10, they're not cheating and you want to make sure they know they're being watched BEFORE they go and cheat. It's like how so many businesses have cameras up but almost NONE of those businesses even have them on or functioning. Heck, my local game shop has cameras up that don't even have POWER to them let alone record anything. It works.

Why go and LET it get to the point where it could be confused with cheating? Just let them get the warning first. It's basic common sense.

Are judges to be concerned with minimize cheating or punishing it?

This is an honest question. If the goal is supposed to be catching cheaters and nothing else matters, then of course the judges should never warn anyone about anything - merely wait for enough violations to occur. Of course that wouldn't be very fun and would terrify most players - anything that could be perceived as wrong would still count against you (even the best judges are not perfect or all knowing).

I know I want those cheating to be caught and appropriately dealt with, but I also know that I do not want to punish the innocent as well. Then there is the matter of what is simply feasible - we could insist all games be played on some elaborate automated set up (or perhaps with a variation of the PTCGO) to prevent cheating, but think of the cost; clearly that is ridiculous.

Fine. Let's say a judge goes to someone and say they think they might have looked at a card during a cut the first time it happens. Do you give an official warning? One that goes on record? If they actually were cheating you would want something on record to keep track of things that happen over multiple events. If they weren't cheating now they have something on record that they didn't do. I know I would be upset if I got an official warning for not actually doing anything.

Wouldn't not saying anything the first time cheating was possibly seen be better to not terrify players? If judges are coming up to me for perceived cheating events that didn't actually happen that's going to throw me off my game. I'd much prefer judges to observe the player then take action when it's confirmed that cheating has occurred instead of talking to players/giving warnings at the first sign something may have happened.
 
@SMP88

It is important to consider the perspective of others and the consequences that actions may have on them. I realize some may be made nervous by receiving a verbal warning, but it is the best option. Remember, the alternatives are:

1) Full penalty issued; if a warning throws you off more than a Prize penalty, game loss, DQ, etc. then you have a personal problem to deal with.

2) Nothing being done, but now you simply don't know you got a warning. Essentially you've already got that unrecorded infraction, you just don't know it. What is more, as the judge does not step in for this scenario, any benefit you did gain inappropriate remains... which would happen when your opponent is the one with an "unrecorded infraction". If it was a matter of not knowing you were breaking the rules... you still don't know. If it was a matter of a behavior that looked suspicious or like you were cheating, you still don't know. It is possible that nothing more will come of it, but the more you play, the more and more improbable it becomes that this will not result in someone innocent being incorrectly penalized.
 
Why dont judges stop it when its first noticed, make a statement that noticed 'x' happen amd issue a warning or whatever. Then next time it happens, DQ.

I know I was accused of cheating in my ygo days. Had been playing gadgets in the LS format pre synchros and such. People thought cheating by stacking and reordering was happening when I would search out a gadget. However other players who I didnt know backed me up and said its just the way the deck works and is played.

All in the eye of whomever. Just say something. There is the first warning. Just because one person may be cheating does not mean to ruin the tournament for others who may have had an impact from the DQ. This shouldnt happen and the fact the judges did this points to a set up qhen they couldve just DQd early on. I mean seriously. How many times in a match does a person on average search and shuffle their deck? A LOT! More than enough instances could have occurred within a single match not FIVE!
 
For those concerned with DQ penalties being thrown out, willy nilly to players left and right for innocent actions "mistaken" as cheating, let me ask you to guess how many cheating penalties and/or DQs I have issued in my career as a Pokemon TCG judge.

Highlight below to read.

One. Total.
 
For those concerned with DQ penalties being thrown out, willy nilly to players left and right for innocent actions "mistaken" as cheating, let me ask you to guess how many cheating penalties and/or DQs I have issued in my career as a Pokemon TCG judge.

Highlight below to read.

One. Total.
same here...............
 
For those concerned with DQ penalties being thrown out, willy nilly to players left and right for innocent actions "mistaken" as cheating, let me ask you to guess how many cheating penalties and/or DQs I have issued in my career as a Pokemon TCG judge.

Highlight below to read.

One. Total.

Same, actually. Theme much?
 
Unfortunately, I have a few more than that to my credit...but I do not see it as a badge of honor. The best thing you can do for any game environment is remove the cheaters from the game.

There is NOTHING more frustrating to players than to feel that cheaters are getting away with it.

This is not a comment on the Gino situation, as I have no first-hand knowledge about it, but just a comment as a whole.

Want to improve gaming as a whole in any game??? Get the cheaters out of there.

Trust me, Pokémon had a HUGE problem with this back in the WOTC days, and it went up to the organizer level....

Pokémon today, in most every area, is blessed with organizers and judges who are in it for the good of the game and the players. Sorry North Dakota, just don't know any organizers there.
 
Why dont judges stop it when its first noticed, make a statement that noticed 'x' happen amd issue a warning or whatever. Then next time it happens, DQ.

That is indeed a reasonable question Ranger. By analogy let me refer you back to Ranger School and Honor Code Violations. Honor Code involved evaluation of both the act and intent. Agreed? If your RI observed a violation with you committing an act with intent that would be different that merely an accidental mistake? Silly analogy:Making a mistake cleaning your bolt carrier would be treating differently than say hiding a clean bolt carrier in a baggie in your ruck and getting caught opening that baggie during a weapon cleaning reassembly. Clearly the act itself (getting caught with the hidden the clean bolt carrier) conveys bad intent. Well its not always that cut and dry. Sometimes intent is harder to determine and prove. Judgment and experience with the individual become important. Can we agree that someone in Regiment 6 years would be held to a more stringent standard for discipline than someone with 6 months?

OK. Now lets shift to Pokemon. I would refer you to the current edition of the Organized Play Penalty Guidelines. First question: have you read this document? If not, I think it will address your questions and concerns. Most of the document is written to address unintentional violations. Indeed many penalties are cautionary and the process is intended to be a positive learning experience to lead to a better understanding of the rules. In those circumstances, judges do exactly what you suggest in your comment I quoted. This is especially the case at lower level tournaments (League Challenges, City Championships). Higher level tournaments will have stricter application of penalties (Tier 1 vs. Tier 2 event). Additionally, the guidelines require consideration of the age and experience level of the players involved. A newer, younger player may be held to a different standard than an older, experienced player especially someone with several seasons including competing at US Nationals and World Championship levels. Finally, judges are to consider prior violation experience of the player (ie. repeat/habitual offender). The details for how these standards are applied are contained in the guidelines.

Here's the thing: with the incident at hand we have been informed that the determination was made that the player actions were intentional. This fast-forwards you through the Penalty Guidelines document to the Unsporting Conduct section (which has been posted and re-quoted in this thread). Once you are operating in that section, the flexibility is far reduced and the Guidelines prescribe a DQ for both Tier 1 and Tier 2.

Because the incident was reported to involve an act requiring determination of intent, it becomes necessary to observe the action and consult with others. Our understanding from the information given is this was not a cut 'n dry action (caught with a card up my sleeve like the bolt carrier example above). These cases require informed human judgment and the guidelines specifically call for the involvement of, and careful consideration by the Head Judge (not some rookie new judge).

Because the specifics of the deliberations cannot be divulged by staff and were only partially communicated by Gino (including a lot of information from Gino that had nothing to do with the DQ incident) I can see how readers may be left to form a variety of conclusions. That said, the standards that are used including the process to apply them is very public.
 
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Sometimes, the only thing worse than the truth is ignoring the truth.

Stop with the conspiracy nonsense, recognize the ugliness of the situation, strive to do better, and move on.
 
That is indeed a reasonable question Ranger. By analogy let me refer you back to Ranger School and Honor Code Violations. Honor Code involved evaluation of both the act and intent. Agreed? If your RI observed a violation with you committing an act with intent that would be different that merely an accidental mistake? Silly analogy:Making a mistake cleaning your bolt carrier would be treating differently than say hiding a clean bolt carrier in a baggie in your ruck and getting caught opening that baggie during a weapon cleaning reassembly. Clearly the act itself (getting caught with the hidden the clean bolt carrier) conveys bad intent. Well its not always that cut and dry. Sometimes intent is harder to determine and prove. Judgment and experience with the individual become important. Can we agree that someone in Regiment 6 years would be held to a more stringent standard for discipline than someone with 6 months?

From this I understood everything. LOL

The main point that made the light go off

Making a mistake cleaning your bolt carrier would be treating differently than say hiding a clean bolt carrier in a baggie in your ruck and getting caught opening that baggie during a weapon cleaning reassembly.

and

Can we agree that someone in Regiment 6 years would be held to a more stringent standard for discipline than someone with 6 months?

From the way you speak btw, are you scrolled?
 
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No. Just part of military family. My brother in law is a Command Sgt. Major in Army SF. When he was at Bragg pre 9/11, I had the privilege to visit numerous times and get range time with the team, observe SF selection and SERE school and other stuff. I've also been to "Shaw school" in Mississippi. Post 9/11, with his op tempo and me having kids, I don't get that kind of fun anymore. Saw your footer and thought we could relate :)
 
No. Just part of military family. My brother in law is a Command Sgt. Major in Army SF. When he was at Bragg pre 9/11, I had the privilege to visit numerous times and get range time with the team, observe SF selection and SERE school and other stuff. I've also been to "Shaw school" in Mississippi. Post 9/11, with his op tempo and me having kids, I don't get that kind of fun anymore. Saw your footer and thought we could relate :)

That's whats up. I bet your brother in law never had time for anything though, even though SF does try to compensate the family with an abundance of bonuses I hear.

Not everyone gets to see SF selection and SERE school is something I want to do. Kind of want to go 160th since I'm now part of aviation, sorta. I don't know though. Getting tired of it. Might just want to get out altogether.
 
Sometimes, the only thing worse than the truth is ignoring the truth.

Stop with the conspiracy nonsense, recognize the ugliness of the situation, strive to do better, and move on.

The only thing that is the truth about this situation is I got a DQ for something I didn't even do. Im sick of the haters accusing me of cheating. I've been winning pokemon tournaments since I was 15 years old. Im allergic to cheating! Incidents with Double Nickeling, Marked Sleeves, Drawing extra cards, and putting extra cards from the discard pile into your hand always been the main popular sources of cheating. None of which I have ever DONE! Im being accused of looking under my deck after each shuffle.

ALL five of my opponents cut my deck after I shuffled. They weren't noobs to the game. One player even accused me of riffling the sides of my deck in round 3 and still stated "i didn't look under my deck". No one finds this suspicious? Its because I didn't do these allegations. Im being targeted and this just shows you how much power Judges and TPCI have in this game. So just because two judges said I did something and I didn't I'm supposed to pay for a crime I didn't even commit. So you sir should recognize the ugliness of this situation.
 
Weather or not you think Gino deserves to get banned is probably based on your opinions on the laptop case in Canada. To say these two aren't connected is a joke. Gino got a pass on something he probably should have gotten a ban for and ban for something that probably should have been a slap on the wrist. Yea this whole thing feels like a set up to use as an excuse to get Gino banned. Looking at the bottom card of your deck gives such an irrelevant advantage I just don't see an "accomlished cheater" using something so irrelevant to the game state.

Jon's cards in Mee's bag means that Mee's also should have gotten a strongly worded letter from Nintendo as well...
 
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