Durant and the Spirit of the Game
- Thread starter hakemo
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I really feel the term "decks against spirit of the game" should be used very carefully. Lets actually rephrase that, no deck is against the spirit of the game, if it falls within the rules than its fine (Durant does). I think people are more upset about Durant because they see it as a "cheap" deck that takes no skill. Players are going to answer those two questions different, but the answer to both of these questions are pretty pointless imo and the only time when I feel like we should really complain about a deck is
1.) It's dominating a meta to an unhealthy degree
-Only two decks I can think of really did this Gardevoir and Luxchomp but there was so much skill involved playing these decks and expecially mirror. I really enjoyed both of these formats. Now if mirror was as stupid as lets say Durant mirror this would be another story.
2.) The deck can win before the opponent gets a turn
Sableye is the number 1 deck that comes to everybodys mind, while Kindgra is close behind. Zekrom treads closely to this, but the deck really has no mid or late game which balances it out a bit. Along with the fact that its not dominating the format by any means.
Looks over JandPDS Cities report I don't see how Durant is in any danger of doing either. He won 0 of his games turn 1, and topped 1 in 7 Cities. He bubbled a handful more and only "bombed" 1 so it was an "alright" cities run. Now if he won 7 Cities by milling all of his opponents turn 1 than yes we would have a problem. Nobody likes playing against Durant but would you rather play against Sableye or Turn 2 Kingdra with the old Rare Candy ruling?
1.) It's dominating a meta to an unhealthy degree
-Only two decks I can think of really did this Gardevoir and Luxchomp but there was so much skill involved playing these decks and expecially mirror. I really enjoyed both of these formats. Now if mirror was as stupid as lets say Durant mirror this would be another story.
2.) The deck can win before the opponent gets a turn
Sableye is the number 1 deck that comes to everybodys mind, while Kindgra is close behind. Zekrom treads closely to this, but the deck really has no mid or late game which balances it out a bit. Along with the fact that its not dominating the format by any means.
Looks over JandPDS Cities report I don't see how Durant is in any danger of doing either. He won 0 of his games turn 1, and topped 1 in 7 Cities. He bubbled a handful more and only "bombed" 1 so it was an "alright" cities run. Now if he won 7 Cities by milling all of his opponents turn 1 than yes we would have a problem. Nobody likes playing against Durant but would you rather play against Sableye or Turn 2 Kingdra with the old Rare Candy ruling?
JandPDS
New Member
I lost to Cake because I ran out of energy Game 1 I beat him game 2, And I lost in Sudden death Match where he had a good start and I did not. I dont know if my list is different then 90% of them out there but it wins and that is enough for me. Durant is a very versitle deck, it can me played differernt ways. I perfer to not have to depend on Decking my opponet to win games. I can do that when I am able, but I can win a slugest as well. Turnbo Durant can not do that.
You need to be able to deal with a threat when one gets out. No matter how much you disrupt there will be games where your opponent sets up a big ugle thing and starts OHKO'ing your durrants. IF you cant deal with that threat you will loose the game.
There is nothing questionable about my list. It wins and that is good enough for me. I go for the win conditon that gives me the best chance of signing a win on my matchslip after the game is over. Some games the deck oout is my best option, others it is taking prizes and winning that way. So far the only match I have been unable to win is Tyram, but besides that I like my chances against any decks out there. I have beaten some of the best players in our area, and this is a very competitive spot for pokemon.
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Durant isn't a very versatile deck...you mill and that's pretty much it.
It can't be played in many different ways, it can only be played in 1/2 ways. Milling your opponent/attacking with cobalion.
I'm not sure what a slugest is, but if you mean turbo can't win late game, despite the name, you're mistaken.
What things are there that start OHKOing your Durants every turn that you have no way of getting around except Zekrom that can be taken care of by rotom?
It can't be played in many different ways, it can only be played in 1/2 ways. Milling your opponent/attacking with cobalion.
I'm not sure what a slugest is, but if you mean turbo can't win late game, despite the name, you're mistaken.
What things are there that start OHKOing your Durants every turn that you have no way of getting around except Zekrom that can be taken care of by rotom?
JandPDS
New Member
I would not feel comfortable just having Rotom as my only attacker but if it is working for you congrats. I just dont want to be damaging my durants with Rainbow energy.
Yes but in the ssme tourny you can win games multiple ways. You can deck them out when you cant win on prizes or you can Mill away thier ability to hang with you while you set up cobalions and KO your way to victory . You opponent has to guess at wich way you are setting up and if they guess wrong they loose (heck even if they guess right they loose too may times) I just love the way that Durant gives people fits,
Yes but in the ssme tourny you can win games multiple ways. You can deck them out when you cant win on prizes or you can Mill away thier ability to hang with you while you set up cobalions and KO your way to victory . You opponent has to guess at wich way you are setting up and if they guess wrong they loose (heck even if they guess right they loose too may times) I just love the way that Durant gives people fits,
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^ I don't use Rainbow energy, I don't understand why people use it.
I use a single lightning energy. That way you don't permanently lose an energy when you attack with it, you can use super rod or FSL, which you can't do with rainbow energy. You're playing very questionable opponents if they can't figure out your strategy whilst you're setting up a cobalion with presumably 3 energy on it..we're not in the time of scramble energy here (which doesn't even work on basics). And I'm seriously hoping your deck doesn't give your opponent fits o.o I'd stop playing the deck if it did that to people.
Speaking of scramble energy would that be a decent addition to the current game? Only works when you're behind on prizes, helping slow decks. Doesn't work on ex's (meaning they can't suddenly be charged up) and the same goes for basics (Zekrom/Reshiram/Kyurem/Mewtwo ex etc). What do you guys think?
I use a single lightning energy. That way you don't permanently lose an energy when you attack with it, you can use super rod or FSL, which you can't do with rainbow energy. You're playing very questionable opponents if they can't figure out your strategy whilst you're setting up a cobalion with presumably 3 energy on it..we're not in the time of scramble energy here (which doesn't even work on basics). And I'm seriously hoping your deck doesn't give your opponent fits o.o I'd stop playing the deck if it did that to people.
Speaking of scramble energy would that be a decent addition to the current game? Only works when you're behind on prizes, helping slow decks. Doesn't work on ex's (meaning they can't suddenly be charged up) and the same goes for basics (Zekrom/Reshiram/Kyurem/Mewtwo ex etc). What do you guys think?
JandPDS
New Member
OH I would love it if they bring back scamble energy. It would be so nice to Iron Break for one energy played. EX's are back is it too much to hope we will see scramble back as well?
4 Durant
1 Rotom
4 Evolite
X Catcher
X Junk Arm
X Revive
X Twins
X Metal Energy
Everything else is just personal preference. I've even seen a few that don't run Special Metal due to how hard they are to get out of the discard.
Cobalion can't use Scramble Energy, only works on evolved pokemon.
Oh and merry Christmas everyone, hope you have a great day!
JandPDS
New Member
Yea thats right, oh well maybe it be a new energy that is like scrable but the only restriction on it is that it cant be attached to an EX
Otaku
Active Member
Let's not bring back Scramble Energy, and anything like it needs to be seriously nerfed. The good news is that we don't currently have a Modified Legal way to drop Evolutions into play from no where (reducing the abusive nature of Scramble Energy), but at the same time it wasn't that hard to abuse by simply existing. Gettingn a "triple Rainbow Energy" is just too much.
Boost Energy might be okay though, or Double Rainbow Energy. Still all of these (but especially Scramble Energy) might be too useful with Electrode and the few comeback cards we have. Think about Energy Mite with Scramble Energy or any of the multiple Energy cards not currently legal back in the game. @_@
Boost Energy might be okay though, or Double Rainbow Energy. Still all of these (but especially Scramble Energy) might be too useful with Electrode and the few comeback cards we have. Think about Energy Mite with Scramble Energy or any of the multiple Energy cards not currently legal back in the game. @_@
What cards would benefit to such a huge extent from this energy gain, to a point where it's broken?
MegaVelocibot
<a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p
Conkeldurr would be amusing with four Scramble, until the Scramble wore off.
Otaku
Active Member
Did you ever face Scramble Energy in tournament play when it was legal? This is not an all or nothing point to the argument, I just honestly wonder and apologize since it is very hard to answer this not knowing.
I tend to be long winded, and there is much to cover. The shorthand version is you're supposed to require effort to get a Stage 1/2 Pokemon with three Energy into play. Yeah, a lot of cards currently make that too easy but this just makes those cards look like slackers!
Plus it isn't like something with a good attack for (CCC), but any attack on an Evolution for three (or less) Energy. Even a minimally competent opponent is then able to take down a healthy attacker you spent time building with a single shot, buying time for them to either Bench whatever they Scrambled (saving it for later) or build it manually into a big attacker (while you were set back to square one).
Competent players will exploit the card. Before specific Pokemon combos are advanced but deck generic combos, like giving up an opening Pokemon so you can use Twins to... you guessed it, get Scramble Energy and Rare Candy into hand. Then there is learning to pick your targets... often the player using Scramble Energy won't be worried about your current attacker, but whatever is most vital. If you take out what they Scrambled the next turn, you're ahead a Prize again, and they can repeat until you have a false lead of one Prize, with nothing good left in play while your opponent is riding that Scramble Energy.
As for specific abuse, I already mentioned what Electrode can do. Think about it: hitting a single Scamble Energy probably means its effect is activated, and any other Energy attachments are gravy. Extra Scramble Energy just require viable targets, since they won't go away when attached to Evolutions, even if they are only providing :colorless: at the time. It takes only moderate skill to wear you down with that kind of set-up.
Drifblim would be utterly broken and might rise to staple status. Any reasonably aggressive deck would just spam Drifblim and Scramble Energy (possibly a few copies, due to how this works) to constantly obliterate the opposition's set up once said opponent got ahead a single Prize.
It feels less cheap when a deck built around exploiting the "come from behind" cards does just that: I consider it a legitimate strategy myself. Most such cards work in several decks, and it is quite vexing to lose because an opponent brought a Stage 2 Pokemon out that was naked (or even was a naked Basic Pokemon) the turn before and suddenly its a Stage 2 with three of any and all Energy attached, able to use a great attack (possibly its best). Before they do that, they use Pokemon Catcher to force up something totally healthy up from the Bench to OHKO it, and before actually attacking Rocket's Admin... sorry N shrinks your hand to almost nothing. Now your opponent just needs something that can finish off your almost KOed attacker, and the only benefit of your field is that you won't lose immediately due to having no Pokemon in play.
I did play during it's life cycle, but are we in it's life cycle now? No.
I see what you mean with Drifblim, but that's only one card, and it brings another side of the format to the table. I still disagree saying it's game changing however. There are a lot of cards that benefit from scamble energy, yes, but none that make it broken to such a huge extent. Also, Drifblim with scramble would provide a supposed healthy counter towards the ex's if you're stuck against one that's fully powered up and have nothing else to take it out. It makes sweeping happen less often.
Why don't you try out a game with a deck that includes scramble energy against one of the current metagame decks, of course allowing them to utilise scramble energy? Then of course do the same thing when the new cards come out.
I was honestly looking towards less frequently used cards that make take a turn to shine like Krookodile, Lanturn, Scolipede, pretty much anything.
I see what you mean with Drifblim, but that's only one card, and it brings another side of the format to the table. I still disagree saying it's game changing however. There are a lot of cards that benefit from scamble energy, yes, but none that make it broken to such a huge extent. Also, Drifblim with scramble would provide a supposed healthy counter towards the ex's if you're stuck against one that's fully powered up and have nothing else to take it out. It makes sweeping happen less often.
Why don't you try out a game with a deck that includes scramble energy against one of the current metagame decks, of course allowing them to utilise scramble energy? Then of course do the same thing when the new cards come out.
I was honestly looking towards less frequently used cards that make take a turn to shine like Krookodile, Lanturn, Scolipede, pretty much anything.
Otaku
Active Member
Rambo, if you played when it was legal and truly believe that change in Rare Candy renders it safe (or never believed it was broken to begin with), our discussion on this ends. You have not presented compelling evidence things will be different, just a hope that they will. Fortunately it is completely hypothetical and not really worth the effort, unless you're starting a petition to get it back.
I will say this much, I say that Durant, even though it is a jerk of a deck in my personal opinion (I may be biased because I've lost four matches against it during the first two days of the Chicago Marathon, 3 in Streamwood on the 28th including Ness' deck), I honestly don't think that it violates SotG. A win condition is a win condition and mill decks are rare to begin with. Personally, I'm put off by the fact that it's a cheap deck that has proven itself to be a winner for the time being, but again, violating SotG is a bit too far...
I will say this much though, I could go ahead and intimidate Durant players with a big ol' can of RAID, but I won't.
I will say this much though, I could go ahead and intimidate Durant players with a big ol' can of RAID, but I won't.
How about if they brought Crystal Beach back also?
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