Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

First Turn Supporters

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nopoke, if the first player can use a supporter they at least have an option to get basics and really have game.
But it only works if both players are not allowed to attack also on their first turn.

If I read the tournament reports I see to many first turn KO's because the other player simply doesn't get the chance to even use a supporter and get that basic.
I have been KO'd to many times this season (also at important tournaments) while I had at least a Roseanne/Bebe or Collector in hand but had to start the game.

with 17 basics, 4 roseanna, 4 collector, 2 bebe and 4 communication I would say you might expect to play a real game, but the truth is, there wasn't a real game. FTKO and game over.
Not my idea of fun.
 
as far i know the PCL like donks very much. the jpn tournement structure is very fast and they like it when games are short. (from what Tego tells us) so they don´t care about the other world.

and PUI woud not change such a big thing ( first turn supporter, no atacking T1/T2,...) without the PCL
 
I realise this is an old thread, but I'd like to add a little of my own perspective on donking.

I'm fairly sure that I have an unusual perspective :p I play turboshuppet, one that I confessedly netdecked and tweaked here and there.
Shuppet is built to T2 donk, right? And sure, when my deck hits that mark, which isn't often, I love the rush of burning my deck and hunting for those few extra counters to double-donk. It's a fantastic way to win, in my opinion.

However, when I do make that start, I'll always offer a friendly afterwards, because I also love the games that come down to 1-1 prizes. Three of my Nats games came down to that (one being a friendly after a donk :p), and I can honestly say they were the best games of the day, for me. Especially the one where I burned my remaining 15-20 cards in the deck to recover an entire post-Judge shuppet set-up to take the last prize.

Slightly off-topic, I suppose, so I'll draw my conclusion and run. Donks are a part of the game. Sure, taking damage out of the equation could change things, but that mechanic will be exploited by clever decks too. There will -always- be a way to abuse the game mechanics to win quickly, without giving your opponent a chance. It is a valid strategy that can be fun to deliver, rarely fun to recieve.

It's inescapable.
 
The only reason I'd be against T1 Supporters is going first, playing out basics and an Energy, then dropping Judge or Looker's.
 
Kahn (Ricardo Montalbán) said:
I make you a counterproposal.
Click to expand...

(Always wanted to use that)

Rather than adding/taking away from both players, what if we took something away from the player going second that the first player has (for example, powers/attacking). This probably wouldn't solve the situation entirely, but it would at least force players to hedge their bets during setup. Just trying to shake things up.
 
Supporters only 1st turn would improve the game. It doesn't allow the player going 1st to donk because they still have no way to evolve, and it allows them to get a bit of a set up before the player going 2nd pulls out the T1 Machamp, Jumpluff, Donphan, Kingdra, etc.
 
Sableye + Basic (or Special) Dark T1, then Pokemon Collecter for 3 Crobats. This may have been said before, but if they could play supporters for the first turn, it seems like donks would increase.
 
Jaeger said:
After reading report after report over the last couple of years, I keep seeing how common first turn donks are. In my opinion the answer is simple let turn 1 player play supporters.
Click to expand...

The answer to what? Is there a problem? I don't think there's a problem. First turn donks are inherent and intentional.
 
Sandslash7 said:
Sableye + Basic (or Special) Dark T1, then Pokemon Collecter for 3 Crobats. This may have been said before, but if they could play supporters for the first turn, it seems like donks would increase.
Click to expand...

Outside of Sableye, how else would donks increase?
 
meesie666666 said:
if you get donked 1/2 times in an event, you didn't prepare well enough.

4 call, 16 basic pokemon, high rosy/collector count.

on a side note: i only got donked 1 time this whole year. luck/skill?
Click to expand...

That is not allways the case. I went 4-0 in Regionals. Lost t oa Jumplff deck that had 3 pluffs out on T3, then Got Donked in back to back games. No matter how well you bouild your deck, you cant allways stop a donk from happening.
 
Jaeger said:
how are games last 1 turn good for op? Does it take skill to win in 1 turn?
Click to expand...

Although this is a good question, I think a better question is why does TPCI keep making redonkulous cards? (pun intended)

And I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill to build a deck that consistenly gets turn 1 donks.

I honestly see no solution to this problem without something getting banned. Most player mandated bans are terrible and unwarranted in a competitive metagame (ala Playing to Win by Sirlin). It would be nice if you could get a consensus even amongst the "top players" to see how they feel about donks.

I just read a post by last year's World Champion about a deck that he made (Sablelock) who's primary focus was to donk and everything else was just plan B. Its good to know tha there'll be some disagreement on the issue :fire:
 
Sandslash7 said:
Sableye + Basic (or Special) Dark T1, then Pokemon Collecter for 3 Crobats. This may have been said before, but if they could play supporters for the first turn, it seems like donks would increase.
Click to expand...

So you have 4 Sableye and 4 Collector in your deck,a s well as 3+ Crobats. What happens when you don't start with the correct Sableye + Collector combination? You don't get the donk. What happens when your opponent has a 2 Pokemon start? You don't get the donk. I can't imagine a deck in the format, outside Gengar varients that would fear seeing a Sableye and 3 Bat combo when they aren't donked.

However, Sableye + Collector used to get Mesprit, somethin (Mewtwo, Unown R, Crobat, Garchomp C) and a Giritina, then impersonating for Cyrus' Iniative. That would wreck.

Sableye's the huge exception to the "T1 supporters making more strategy based game" idea. It can even get around the not damage your opponent's Pokemon buffer in the way I described, by using 2 supporters T1. If not for that, using supporters On T1 would be great, espcially with the not beign able to damage your opponent's Pokemon part. i think however, there would still have to be the penalty on a person going first in that evolution in NO way could be achieved on their first Turn, not even through BTS/Rare Candy/Pokemon held items. T1 evolution just sounds stupid, and without it, that would put more pressure on player 2 for disruption. That would slightly decrease the speed base in order to tech the amount of Judge/Lookers/Giritina you have, which leads to balancing a deck. Which in itself is making strategy, even if its just the thought of a few Lookers in Kingdra.
 
taking prizes or decking the opponent should be the only legitimate ways to win. The opponent could legitimately lose by not having a pokemon at the end of their turn or if you want to be more radical by losing a prize (or two?) each time you attack and they have no active. Is such a change going to happen? I doubt it :( In the end I always end up being unable to see how it is possible to tinker with the game start given the breadth of options that are available to a players attacking pokemon without breaking the game somewhere else.

All the issues that we have are down to a mismatch between timed tournament games and loosing so early in the round that it is not really possible to say which of a pair is the more skilled as against who just got lucky with the start. Match play helps lots with this but matchplay in swiss will need the return of draws to avoid the tournament schedule being wrecked each round by multiple sudden death matches.

Making prizes taken the second tie breaker could help. Donk wins would be discouraged as too many donks would give you a poor tiebreaker. Such a change would need a lot of thought on how to handle concessions.
 
Last edited:
Shino Bug Master said:
So you have 4 Sableye and 4 Collector in your deck,a s well as 3+ Crobats. What happens when you don't start with the correct Sableye + Collector combination? You don't get the donk. What happens when your opponent has a 2 Pokemon start? You don't get the donk. I can't imagine a deck in the format, outside Gengar varients that would fear seeing a Sableye and 3 Bat combo when they aren't donked.

However, Sableye + Collector used to get Mesprit, somethin (Mewtwo, Unown R, Crobat, Garchomp C) and a Giritina, then impersonating for Cyrus' Iniative. That would wreck.

Sableye's the huge exception to the "T1 supporters making more strategy based game" idea. It can even get around the not damage your opponent's Pokemon buffer in the way I described, by using 2 supporters T1. If not for that, using supporters On T1 would be great, espcially with the not beign able to damage your opponent's Pokemon part. i think however, there would still have to be the penalty on a person going first in that evolution in NO way could be achieved on their first Turn, not even through BTS/Rare Candy/Pokemon held items. T1 evolution just sounds stupid, and without it, that would put more pressure on player 2 for disruption. That would slightly decrease the speed base in order to tech the amount of Judge/Lookers/Giritina you have, which leads to balancing a deck. Which in itself is making strategy, even if its just the thought of a few Lookers in Kingdra.
Click to expand...

Why, just why, do you have to be penalied for WINNING a coin flip, going first should grant an advantage, not wreck ur chances of winning, something the japanese have completely misunderstood.
 
My two cents:

- I don't think first turn Supporters would be a terrible idea, but I'd really have to consider the format more before I gave a Y/N answer.

- I've never understood why whoever wins the coin flip doesn't get to decide who goes first, before setting their board. It just seems like the most logical decision.

- I dunno if this has been mentioned prior, but I think what a lot of people here are assuming is that wins on one are a bad thing and a biproduct of poor game design. I would argue that cards were built specifically for ending games faster, and I think the overabundance of them, along with the 3-prize/30 card deck format in Japan is evidence of that. I don't think that T1 wins were ever not thought of/intended. Maybe the high volume of them sure, but I'm sure that they tested the cards and intended for games to go the way they're going.
 
skovtrold said:
Why, just why, do you have to be penalied for WINNING a coin flip, going first should grant an advantage, not wreck ur chances of winning, something the japanese have completely misunderstood.
Click to expand...

With the exception of getting donked, I almost never find going first to be a bad thing. In this case espically,t he eprson going first would be the first person able to attack. That's a phenomenal advantage. The going first penalty would just be to ensure some level of fairness in the game after that.

Though I do agree that right now, going first is usually terrible, allowing your opponent to set-up with their Cyrus' and Collector's for quick and cheap Power Sprays. Or allowing them to donk you.
 
^What's the use of getting to attack first, if you don't have any useful attacks?
While writing that, I realized that in a slow-paced format, where starter pokes were more viable, this would be more balanced. So it seems like it's the format that made the starting rule unbalanced.
 
Just add a 1st turn rule like this : "A player that draws for their 1st turn, cannot win the game on that turn."

That will prevent a 1st turn donk on both sides and guarantees that a player will make it to their 2nd turn.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top