Wayne, as a Nationals and Worlds head judge, I'm going to have to disagree with your stating this as a fact.
I would not limit this narrowly what is manipulation.
And I'm still waiting for Gwlieksmudkipz to answer my question!!
Flipping heads more often with a coin opposed to rolling a dice
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Wayne, as a Nationals and Worlds head judge, I'm going to have to disagree with your stating this as a fact.
I would not limit this narrowly what is manipulation.
And I'm still waiting for Gwlieksmudkipz to answer my question!!
Silverwarrior
New Member
Ummm... I dont think any of you have ever tried this, but if you flip a coin at at least shoulder level from mid-chest level, then it will only flip 3 times with regular force added.
Practice flicking your thump slighty, and this covers it pretty well. Also, if it only flips EXACTLY 3 times, that means it will land on whatever side you DIDN"T flip it on. I.E. Heads=Tails, Tails=Heads.
It's a matter of probability more then anything. It's just like card ticks where you use math skills to figure out what card you will draw, or name, ect... I'm not saying it's an exact science, but when you know the probability ratio/flips of the coin, you can reduce the luck factor. But 9/10's of the time, if you try flipping a coin on one side, it will land on the opposite when flipped at the same height each time.
Just try it out. You may see it, you may not. But it's something some older kids showed me back in 4th grade when playing coins was the only thing you could do to make money at 10.
Practice flicking your thump slighty, and this covers it pretty well. Also, if it only flips EXACTLY 3 times, that means it will land on whatever side you DIDN"T flip it on. I.E. Heads=Tails, Tails=Heads.
It's a matter of probability more then anything. It's just like card ticks where you use math skills to figure out what card you will draw, or name, ect... I'm not saying it's an exact science, but when you know the probability ratio/flips of the coin, you can reduce the luck factor. But 9/10's of the time, if you try flipping a coin on one side, it will land on the opposite when flipped at the same height each time.
Just try it out. You may see it, you may not. But it's something some older kids showed me back in 4th grade when playing coins was the only thing you could do to make money at 10.
There's a reason why the dice have to hit the backboard in casinos. Throw a die against a hard surface and then tell me you can manipulate the results. Coins are the same thing. If a coin hits the table, it will bounce, unless it's a cheap plastic TPCi coin, which I will not use.
Ninjask88
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
I know what should happen. At the start of every tournament The head judge should hand out a Poketch to every player and then collect them afterwords. That way it will Tell time, flips coins, act as a damage calculator and even tell you which Pokemon your prizes are!!!! Okay maybe not the last one...
If coin flipping is a skill then people need to learn it if they think it is unfair. It is like in wrestling if you think a school is better because they know a certain set of moves. It isn't cheating they just know more than you.
If it isn't a skill it is just luck it is possible just highly unlikely but it is still a probability.
If coin flipping is a skill then people need to learn it if they think it is unfair. It is like in wrestling if you think a school is better because they know a certain set of moves. It isn't cheating they just know more than you.
If it isn't a skill it is just luck it is possible just highly unlikely but it is still a probability.
Gwlieksmudkipz
Member
Now that you bring it up he does flip it at a level lower then his shoulder, and you very well might have answered my question. However I don't see how muscle memory CAN'T be learned flipped from shoulder height looking at the technical definition of muscle memory. I'm sure that he could learn to flip following all of the standards of being a "legal" flip. However I would like to know if this has been adressed before within tcpi and how much thought has been put into this ruling
It has been addressed by TPCi by making the detailed rules for flipping that they have.
If players don't follow it and judges aren't enforcing it, then that's another issue.
If he can still do it when following the rules, then we might have an issue that needs futher addressing by TPCi.
Right now, it seems that there is an issue with the floor rules not being followed and I would suggest bringing that up to event staff.
If players don't follow it and judges aren't enforcing it, then that's another issue.
If he can still do it when following the rules, then we might have an issue that needs futher addressing by TPCi.
Right now, it seems that there is an issue with the floor rules not being followed and I would suggest bringing that up to event staff.
Gwlieksmudkipz
Member
What in the definition of muscle memory makes it so that the ruling TPCI has made be legitimate? To me this ruling is just random, and it DEFINATELY is possible to use this "muscle memory" trick legitimate under the ruling.
Ninjask88
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Well yes I geuss so if there is no rule against it and if it improves your odds then yes everyone should do it in order to win, but your opponent can choose to cut your deck ruining what you planned to daw so it doesn't competely work.
What I am saying is that if you comlain about losing to someone who knows more than you do find out what they did an learn it so you will become better and not have an excuse to lose and play a good game.
Also you could always play PT Shiftrey to end your problem...:tongue:
No, sorry. My point was that this and any other method of trying to alter the randomness of a deck or of a coin flip IS against the rules and is in fact cheating which carries a penalty of Disqualification.
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ryanvergel
New Member
if someone had the talent to consistently flip more heads than tails, they would be doing more fruitful things than playing pokemon
id imagine this would take dozens of hours to work out over time and rely on. if someone dedicates that much time to trying to game the system, they will game the system.
it is cheating on their part, but it is a form of cheating that takes that much time and preparation, and usually pokemon events just cant handle the kind of scrutiny it would take to identify and pursue the slightest possibility of this phenomenal ability in a children's card game.
the cards say flip a coin. we cant exactly change that, and probably cant unless japan would, and we'd have to show this to be a reasonable cause to go against coin flips.
Heres the bottomline is it cheating, Yes not a doubt in my mind. But here is the Problem PROVE IT.
I roll a dice pretty much everytime before so one posts OMG Jay cheats,
I see this a lot like counting cards at a Casino is it possible to beat the system yes. The Movie 21 is a great example of this, on how a group of Yale college students counted cards and made millions takeing a lot of casinios including MGM's for a lot of money. But you know who bank rolled the movie MGM. Why becuase 99.9% of the people who saw that movie and walked into a casinio in an attempt to count cards didn't spend the 4-6 hours a day practicing it when they needed to.
I roll a dice pretty much everytime before so one posts OMG Jay cheats,
I see this a lot like counting cards at a Casino is it possible to beat the system yes. The Movie 21 is a great example of this, on how a group of Yale college students counted cards and made millions takeing a lot of casinios including MGM's for a lot of money. But you know who bank rolled the movie MGM. Why becuase 99.9% of the people who saw that movie and walked into a casinio in an attempt to count cards didn't spend the 4-6 hours a day practicing it when they needed to.
Phazon Elite
New Member
I can flip a coin favorably a majority of the time with the little muscle memory trick. I'm not familiar with that exact terminology, but I assume it means your muscles "remember" what motions they make when you flip a coin, and as long as you place the coin in the same spot on your hand when you initially flip it, the probability of a favorable outcome increases (correct me if I'm wrong). At least, that's pretty much what I do.
I use dice just because of that.
I use dice just because of that.
Not sure how the rules go on flipping in the game on whether or not its supposed to hit the table or call it in the air and catch in the hand in such, but I know from experience that on a regular coin if you can learn to memorize the feel within a short amount of time, even if your opponent calls it in the air when you catch it you can quickly get a feel of one side and put it in your favor if your slick when set on the back of your hand. Hard to memorize, learn, and master but its easier to cheat in said way then memorizing the muscle trick for me.
Also what about doing a Yatzee roll(what we call it), put the die in a can or something shake then setting the object down and lifting(after the die stops moving)?
Also what about doing a Yatzee roll(what we call it), put the die in a can or something shake then setting the object down and lifting(after the die stops moving)?
toxictaipan
New Member
Not to totally take this off topic, but...
It's not impossible. I was watching a documentary on the Discovery Channel (or maybe the Travel Channel, I can't remember) on this guy who developed a dice throwing technique to roll 7's and 11's.
The documentary went on to show him developing his technique as he perfected throwing angle and power. Later on, he even gave people classes on how to do it.
Basically, he would grab the dice with 7 facing up, but I'm not sure if it was 5-2, 6-1, or 4-3 (one combination of the columns on a pair of dice has more numbers that can add up to exactly 7, but I forget which one. This comes into play later). He held the one on the left with his thumb, and the one on his right with his middle finger, with his index finger bracing the front of the two in the middle where they meet. He used an underhand swing and used the physics of the dice hitting the backboard to bounce them back onto the correct numbers. The dice don't go wild, they roll perfectly in the air, and continue even after hitting the backboard. Basically like a square wheel spinning in the air and hitting a wall, which knocks it back on its other side.
Of course, this is severe manipulation of the dice. I don't really think this technique can be used in Pokemon since you only roll one die, there is no backboard, and the fact that an underhand swig would easily miss the table and that we aren't aiming for 7's and 11's. I hope this doesn't get deleted....
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Gwlieksmudkipz
Member
Phazon elite and "X" admiting doing so in conjunction to flipping heads 9/10 times over months to come not proof?
NoPoke
Active Member
THIS^
and to avoid just repeating the above post, There are a lot more variables to control than just flip power and coin position on the hand. So not saying it can't be done but I am sceptical that the test methodology is statistically significant to justify the conclusion being made.
Kayle
Active Member
I don't practice flipping coins but in my own experience, if I use an actual coin to flip, my chances of heads are 70-80%. It's not that I try, it's just that's how it happens. My arm/hand automatically flips to try to get heads.
So I use dice, instead.
Basically, same story as Phazon. It doesn't take practice and it's not a result of absurd dedication. I just do it. I don't necessarily LIKE that I do it, but I do.
As far as this whole thread goes: I can also personally rig a d6 throw, but my ability is limited and relatively deliberate. As States comes closer, I'm going to start actually rolling the dice instead of dropping it, and I encourage players concerned about randomization to do the same. Yeah, you being nicer doesn't help your own odds, but it helps the problem at the end of the day.
So I use dice, instead.
Basically, same story as Phazon. It doesn't take practice and it's not a result of absurd dedication. I just do it. I don't necessarily LIKE that I do it, but I do.
As far as this whole thread goes: I can also personally rig a d6 throw, but my ability is limited and relatively deliberate. As States comes closer, I'm going to start actually rolling the dice instead of dropping it, and I encourage players concerned about randomization to do the same. Yeah, you being nicer doesn't help your own odds, but it helps the problem at the end of the day.
That would be good as it would be following the floor rules!
Here is a quote:
I think a lot of players that think they know the rules should take a few minutes and actually read the floor rules. You'd be shocked what you or your opponents are doing wrong!
Throwing the die hard into a box is the best way. Maybe we should bring boxes. Or Yahtzee cups. The problem with the shoulder height roll is that the dies bounce off the table and onto the floor sometimes 2-3 times before you can get a legitimate roll on the table. So players go lower and roll gentler so as not to waste to much time looking for their dies on the floor.
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