Floatzel GL in Gyarados decks...why not?

[Phazon Elite]

"By going with that line, you have too much x".

That's one of the hurdles you'll have to overcome on your way to becoming a better player. The tendency to overstuff a deck with its main positive resource. In this case, you're overstuffing a Gyrados deck with recovery cards, recovery being one of Gyrados' main positive properties.

For me, I tend to put way too much drawpower in decks, so whenever i build a new deck, the first question I ask myself is "How much speed can I take out of this before it starts to get overly inconsistent?" You should be asking yourself a similar question, and the answer -as always - will come through rigorous playtesting.

Ask yourself how much recovery you can take out of the deck, then make minor changes until you find the right balance (everyone has already told you, multiple times, what the right balance is, but oh well).

 

[skarmory777]

Floatzel doesn't seem necessary. You normally don't need that much recovery (P_E points this out), and with NM/SSU/PR/Palmer's, floatzel doesn't seem needed (shen points this out).

If you ran floatzel, you're saying you would still run PRs and such. Why bother? Redundancy? If you have to run 3 pokemon rescue regardless of floatzel, then why even run floatzel?

Basically, floatzel isn't needed, and it doesn't help that much, because you aren't reducing your other recovery cards.

If it aint broke, don't fix it! The truth shall set you free my friends.

 

[calisupra2nr]

That's one of the hurdles you'll have to overcome on your way to becoming a better player. The tendency to overstuff a deck with its main positive resource. In this case, you're overstuffing a Gyrados deck with recovery cards, recovery being one of Gyrados' main positive properties.

For me, I tend to put way too much drawpower in decks, so whenever i build a new deck, the first question I ask myself is "How much speed can I take out of this before it starts to get overly inconsistent?" You should be asking yourself a similar question, and the answer -as always - will come through rigorous playtesting.

Ask yourself how much recovery you can take out of the deck, then make minor changes until you find the right balance (everyone has already told you, multiple times, what the right balance is, but oh well).

You know what, your right. Thanks for teaching me how to be a better player. I see now how adding 2 cards in a deck can make it "overstuffed".

 

[chetabear]

^This forrum is an amazing example of why teachers in the US are epicly underpaid.

 

[Jaeger]

You know what, your right. Thanks for teaching me how to be a better player. I see now how adding 2 cards in a deck can make it "overstuffed".

Why start a topic when it is incredibly obivous you don't care what anybody else says.

 

[calisupra2nr]

Have you ever been to a car dealership and asked, "Why should I buy this vehicle?" and then heard, "Well you should this vehicle because it is great. It is a solid car, and will really be a great car for you to have. The car is in great condition and will be the best car you ever purchase."

This is an example of someone who talks a lot, but has nothing to say. That is all I am getting from this and after a while, after enough of that crap many consumers just go, "Yeah ok, I will take that car." In this case, I will go ahead and take the reasons and go because I am tired of reading a lot and getting nothing.

 

[Phazon Elite]

Have you ever been to a car dealership and asked, "Why should I buy this vehicle?" and then heard, "Well you should this vehicle because it is great. It is a solid car, and will really be a great car for you to have. The car is in great condition and will be the best car you ever purchase."

This is an example of someone who talks a lot, but has nothing to say. That is all I am getting from this and after a while, after enough of that crap many consumers just go, "Yeah ok, I will take that car." In this case, I will go ahead and take the reasons and go because I am tired of reading a lot and getting nothing.

It's immature, closed-minded attitudes like yours that make many people unwilling to offer advanced strategy on this board. You're effectively saying: "Nobody's saying what I want them to say, so obviously, their assistance is useless." After you have displayed such a terrible grasp of common logic, why would anyone (myself included) ever want to directly help you ever again?

 

[calisupra2nr]

It's immature, closed-minded attitudes like yours that make many people unwilling to offer advanced strategy on this board. You're effectively saying: "Nobody's saying what I want them to say, so obviously, their assistance is useless." After you have displayed such a terrible grasp of common logic, why would anyone (myself included) ever want to directly help you ever again?

Lol what do you want me to say, "Oh wow I see your logic now. I guess you are right, thanks for helping me." When in reality you never said anything that proved your point... You simply and consistently said, "you are overusing cards that do the same thing. Try running Luxray instead."

Are you serious? Really? You want me to accept that kind of logic and reasoning as to not running a 1-1 line that does exactly what the deck needs. You never even asked what my deck would include or not include by running Floatzel. I do not run Palmers for one thing. By not digging deeper into what you are trying to preach, you simply avoid any reasonable explanation for the crap you keep telling me. Maybe you are trying to make me look immature for not listening to you and being closed-minded... or maybe you are angry because what I said about car salesmen applies directly to what you are doing here and you realize that. I refuse to be lectured by someone who comes to the table with almost 0 proof to substantiate what they are saying. How easy is it for someone to say, "oh no that's bad, run this" and then if they see someone disagreeing, the opposition must be deaf or unable to help.

And you say I am bad for the this board. Haha, you sir are exactly why I make these ridiculous threads. To prove that all the standard methods and preachings are unreliable and unjustified. A good example of someone who is good at actually providing insight to their claims is RyanVergel. As much as I may not like his attitude sometimes, he always provides more than enough facts, statistics and logic to prove what he is talking about.

Maybe most of the time your "star" pokemon status allows you to spew whatever you wish, but in this case I could care less about how good you are. But then again, this is a children's game and maybe I am asking questions that are unanswerable by demographic of this forum.

Oh and PS Phazon: I have understood the concept/logic you have preached this whole time. I am simply trying to have you prove your way, since apparently it is the "best" way.

 

[Phazon Elite]

When in reality you never said anything that proved your point... You simply and consistently said, "you are overusing cards that do the same thing. Try running Luxray instead."

Really? I never proved my point? I said the same thing over and over?

As a service to easily impressionable kids who may be reading this, let's do something out of the ordinary and apply a practical approach to the entire situation.

Your opponent can draw six prizes during the course of the game. This is because by the very basics of the game, only six prizes can be drawn. A short breakdown of them, modified so that it would be like a better setup for Gyrados, follows.

Prize 1: Most likely a starter of yours.
Prize 2: Ideally, your first Gyrados.
Prize 3: A second Gyrados, which you most likely used one of your four Pokemon Rescues to get fully recovered.
Prize 4: A third Gyrados, which you most likely used a second of your four Pokemon Rescues to get fully recovered
Prize 5: A fourth Gyrados, which you most likely used a third of your four Pokemon Rescues to get fully recovered.
Prize 6: Pretty much anything, but hopefully a Gyrados.

Now, after Prize 5, Gyrados deck most likely still has one Pokemon Rescue, a TSD or two, or any number of things left to get the last Gyrados. Of course, if the opponent gets another prize by any other means during this example (by killing a Crobat for example), you won't even need a fifth Gyrados, as your opponent will have drawn his last prize on your fourth Gyrados.

I hope that was simple enough to understand. Shen is absolutely, 100% correct. Calisupra is absolutely, 100% wrong. Going back to what I said earlier, your opponent can only draw six prizes on you. Why in the heck would you want to put enough recovery cards to survive infinitely? You DO NOT need Floatsel in Gyrados. If you're determined to put something interesting in the deck, put Luxray X or something to further increase the deck's speed, or find some other hole to fill. Don't put in a 1-1 tech that you'll never conceivably need during the course of the game.

lol, that was what I was going to suggest . . . again.

Every time Gyrados is removed from play (by SSU or KO or something else), you just send up Luxray, level it up, bench a Magikarp, evolve it, retreat, and do 90 to whatever you just brought up.

Or heck, if you're really dead set on not expanding your deck's potential and would much rather utilize a simple strategy of I-attack-what-you-bring-up-now, just add two more consistency cards, or maybe bump your Pluspower/Buck's count up to four.

Ugh.

That's one of the hurdles you'll have to overcome on your way to becoming a better player. The tendency to overstuff a deck with its main positive resource. In this case, you're overstuffing a Gyrados deck with recovery cards, recovery being one of Gyrados' main positive properties.

For me, I tend to put way too much drawpower in decks, so whenever i build a new deck, the first question I ask myself is "How much speed can I take out of this before it starts to get overly inconsistent?" You should be asking yourself a similar question, and the answer -as always - will come through rigorous playtesting.

Ask yourself how much recovery you can take out of the deck, then make minor changes until you find the right balance (everyone has already told you, multiple times, what the right balance is, but oh well).

Not only am I trying to be helpful, but I say something different each time AND provide a thorough gameplay example where I assume that Gyrados has a close to ideal start.

Are you serious? Really? You want me to accept that kind of logic and reasoning as to not running a 1-1 line that does exactly what the deck needs. You never even asked what my deck would include or not include by running Floatzel. I do not run Palmers for one thing. By not digging deeper into what you are trying to preach, you simply avoid any reasonable explanation for the crap you keep telling me. Maybe you are trying to make me look immature for not listening to you and being closed-minded or maybe you are angry because what I said about car salesmen applies directly to what you are doing here and you realize that. I refuse to be lectured by someone who comes to the table with almost 0 proof to substantiate what they are saying.

Kid, too much of a good thing . . . can sometimes be BAD!
Too much candy? BAD!
Too much work? BAD!
Too much time with the ladies? BAD!
Too much [insert game property here] in a deck? BAD!

And you say I am bad for the this board. Haha, you sir are exactly why I make these ridiculous threads. To prove that all the standard methods and preachings are unreliable and unjustified. A good example of someone who is good at actually providing insight to their claims is RyanVergel. As much as I may not like his attitude sometimes, he always provides more than enough facts, statistics and logic to prove what he is talking about.

You make threads that are bad for the board . . . on purpose? What?

BTW, I agree that Ryan usually provides sound arguments for whatever he's discussing.

Maybe most of the time your "star" pokemon status allows you to spew whatever you wish, but in this case I could care less about how good you are. But then again, this is a children's game and maybe I am asking questions that are unanswerable by demographic of this forum.

This is golden.

1. . . . I'm a star? Wow, that's awesome. I had no idea. Why didn't you tell me before?
2. I admit that I AM good, as do you. However, you also admit that you don't care about taking advice from good players. So, you have no interest in expanding your skill? You only want advice from people who are worse than you so you can tell them they're wrong, thus making you feel superior? You don't like being wrong? Aww . . .

Maybe you just can't get past my arrogant attitude.

 

[calisupra2nr]

Really? I never proved my point? I said the same thing over and over?







Not only am I trying to be helpful, but I say something different each time AND provide a thorough gameplay example where I assume that Gyrados has a close to ideal start.


Kid, too much of a good thing . . . can sometimes be BAD!
Too much candy? BAD!
Too much work? BAD!
Too much time with the ladies? BAD!
Too much [insert game property here] in a deck? BAD!


You make threads that are bad for the board . . . on purpose? What?

BTW, I agree that Ryan usually provides sound arguments for whatever he's discussing.


This is golden.

1. . . . I'm a star? Wow, that's awesome. I had no idea. Why didn't you tell me before?
2. I admit that I AM good, as do you. However, you also admit that you don't care about taking advice from good players. So, you have no interest in expanding your skill? You only want advice from people who are worse than you so you can tell them they're wrong, thus making you feel superior? You don't like being wrong? Aww . . .

Maybe you just can't get past my arrogant attitude.

Yes you did just say the same thing over and over. You said Floatzel is bad because you are using too much of one thing. You said you would suggest Luxray even though I specifically said Poketurns are reserved for Crobat and if you do not Poketurn Luxray, what good is he? Is it better to spend time attacking the bench and not attacking their main attacker? The other suggestion you made was to put in something that helps with consistency or maxing out plus powers, bucks, etc. I already have maxed out on those and as for consistency? My deck looks identical to many others with the exception that I dropped out Palmers and a NM... But again you wouldn't know that because you never inquired. Which brings me to my next point, your self proclaimed arrogant attitude which would prevent you from ever gaining knowledge on the topic because you assume you already know. I hate to break it to you, but you do not know everything.

I do make threads on this board to spur discussion and try to extrapolate beyond what is usually given (ie, "That deck needs 2-3 Claydol") Why? What proof can someone offer on what they are saying. If this forum simply runs around dishing out advise with 0 support, then we can just assume that our community is going to remain stagnant. If no one ever looked outside the box, we would rarely make advancements. I think I am requiring more out of you than you are either willing to give, or can give, and it makes you irritated. Which makes me laugh because you then state, that I do not like being wrong...

This is not about being right or wrong. It is about what you can put forth and then back up like it is your job. That is why our decklist subforum is almost utterly useless. People make decks, post them, and then receive almost ZERO insight. No one takes the time to help them through and understand the reasoning. Instead we have someone say, -1-1 Floatzel and +2 Palmer's. Lol how is that acceptable? How does asking more from someone make me a bad/immature/helpless player? You see the real issue here is I do want to learn more from good players, the problem I am finding is that the good players either don't visit the gym, or they do not care to be a teacher.

I apologize for asking too much out of you Phazon, guess your arrogant attitude is misplaced.

 

[Phazon Elite]

I'm sorry, but I have more important things to do in life than construct a thesis just to help some random kid online. I work 40 hours a week, I'm taking a college class, I have a healthy long-term relationship with my girl, I'm helping my parents move, and I've been spending much of my limited free time making an article on the deck I used during BRs. Nobody in my position cares about proving themselves to someone who storms out of a BR when "accused of cheating."

I just can't get over the fact that you're unhappy that you're getting multiple answers to your strategy questions. Get off it, kid.

 

[Yoshi-]

Luxray is good, you can just split your Poketurns depending on what the situation calls for....
If you can drag off and kill Claydol and render your opponent immobile thats well worth the Poketurn.
You just have to think about what you really need.

At first sight Floatzel looks great, yeah. But in the end hes unreliable sicne you have to get him up first and he can be killed easily. So you have to pack Resque anyway. Still Floatzel could be worth it but you'll hardly get more then 4 / 5 Gyarados up anyway so Floatzel is superflu(ious? /cal? I dont know). Yeah it can help since you cant always get the Resque in time but in the end I doubt hes worth it. Against most decks he'll be pretty useless and cloging up your field. You use resque for 4/5 Gyarados, is you're afraid of not getting it in time add 1/2 TSD.

And the deck help forum is stuffed with either bad standart decks (why would you help there) or decks from people who try to build something cool but wont accept it wont work. And especially in a game where 1 tech can decide a game I'd rather keep information output limited and not spurt out my secrets.

 

[calisupra2nr]

I'm sorry, but I have more important things to do in life than construct a thesis just to help some random kid online. I work 40 hours a week, I'm taking a college class, I have a healthy long-term relationship with my girl, I'm helping my parents move, and I've been spending much of my limited free time making an article on the deck I used during BRs. Nobody in my position cares about proving themselves to someone who storms out of a BR when "accused of cheating."

I just can't get over the fact that you're unhappy that you're getting multiple answers to your strategy questions. Get off it, kid.

Then why post in the first place if you can only do a half ways decent job? I am glad that you do all of the above, but who said that anyone cared to hear your sob story as to why you are so busy? As if we all do not have things that take up our time, and honestly it is no excuse not to do a good job if your going to take the time in the first place to post. I work 20-25 hours a week, attend 20 credit hours of classes and maintain a 4.0 gpa. On top of that I manage a six figure investment portfolio and keep somewhat of a normal college lifestyle. So please do not come hoping to compare how busy you are because not only does it make you look mediocre, but it makes you sound like you are incapable of doing anything the right way. All of that should also tell you that I am not a kid and that proving yourself to me is not what is important. What is important is thoroughly doing in depth discussion to prove something is un-needed. Hopefully the 1 class you are taking is some elementary time management 101.

 

[Shino Bug Master]

So in these 3 pages of whinning that no one wants to teach you, did you ever even try what Phazon suggested? Floatzel is not a BAD option in Gyarados. It is just not OPTIMAL. For instance, I would not say that Dusknoir DP2 is a bad tech in Gengar, but if someone posted a decklist with it for disscusion, I would suggest dropping it for a Queen line if it weren't present.

Is it, then, my job to sit down out a desk and explain to this kid all the statistical evidence that makes Nidoqueen an amazing card in gengar, and then take pages of slander questioning how much I care about my arguement? No.

You say that "Poke-Turn is reserved for Crobat". That's flat out...., well there's no word that I can use here they won't censor. It doesn't make sense, at all. With Tangrowth and Expert Belt out now, Gyarados will have a much harder time dealing with some of the big decks out there. Blazekin FB Lv.x is going to become an increasingly decent option for him as is. You can't choose one frame of mind to play a game of luck and skill by. Would you NOT Poke-Turn that cute little Floatzel you are so gung-ho on playing if it would save your opponent taking the last prize? I doubt it. So then why deny yourself the ability to grab a prize of a Claydol and monkey with their recovery speed, rather then devote everything to your own. Which is consistant enough as is.

 

[calisupra2nr]

So in these 3 pages of whinning that no one wants to teach you, did you ever even try what Phazon suggested? Floatzel is not a BAD option in Gyarados. It is just not OPTIMAL. For instance, I would not say that Dusknoir DP2 is a bad tech in Gengar, but if someone posted a decklist with it for disscusion, I would suggest dropping it for a Queen line if it weren't present.

Is it, then, my job to sit down out a desk and explain to this kid all the statistical evidence that makes Nidoqueen an amazing card in gengar, and then take pages of slander questioning how much I care about my arguement? No.

You say that "Poke-Turn is reserved for Crobat". That's flat out...., well there's no word that I can use here they won't censor. It doesn't make sense, at all. With Tangrowth and Expert Belt out now, Gyarados will have a much harder time dealing with some of the big decks out there. Blazekin FB Lv.x is going to become an increasingly decent option for him as is. You can't choose one frame of mind to play a game of luck and skill by. Would you NOT Poke-Turn that cute little Floatzel you are so gung-ho on playing if it would save your opponent taking the last prize? I doubt it. So then why deny yourself the ability to grab a prize of a Claydol and monkey with their recovery speed, rather then devote everything to your own. Which is consistant enough as is.

Haha, the funny thing is that I actually did try what he suggested. That was BEFORE I put in Floatzel because I made the standard Gyarados deck (which is what Phazon is telling me to do). I know how the normal Gyarados works, and in reality Floatzel has been working just as fine. So I ask why not?

As for your Nidoqueen comparison, sure you should sit down and explain why Nidoqueen is good in Gengar if the player does not know... Most of us realize that Nidoqueen is great in Gengar and do not need that explanation but some might. Floatzel is Gyarados is not even remotely as obvious and there is no CLEAR cut card to use over Floatzel. I made this thread because I knew no one could come out and just straight up say, this card or line is better (like you did with Nidoqueen). Because I knew that there was no one way discussion I expected people to come to the table armed with big facts and big proof to try and DISPROVE what I am asking or saying.

As for poketurns being used for Crobat, how does that not make sense. He is a plus power that can not be stopped without power lock. I totally agree with you on Tangrowth and that changes a lot, but still why would I focus on using a poketurn on Luxray just to take out their bench and then have some main hitter pound away at me, unharmed?








Let me make this very clear to anyone reading this thread.

I know how normal Gyarados runs and that he runs just fine WITHOUT Floatzel. I also know that after playing with Floatzel, mine works just as well because I can not find any 2 cards that make enough of a reason to run them over Floatzel. I understand that many of you like to run anything but Floatzel and that is fine, but understand he is not unreasonable and surely he is not bad.

 

[Yoshi-]

At least he doesnt run away crying

 

[Shino Bug Master]

As for poketurns being used for Crobat, how does that not make sense. He is a plus power that can not be stopped without power lock. I totally agree with you on Tangrowth and that changes a lot, but still why would I focus on using a poketurn on Luxray just to take out their bench and then have some main hitter pound away at me, unharmed?

Why not be able to do both? Sure a Plus Power is nice, but a Gust of Wind isn't something to look down on. Are you telling me your opponent has a main attacker on the field 100% of the game? if so, I want to play against you If not, then why take out a Crobat G while your opponent's Claydol is drawing into their Upper Energy/Rare candy recovery?

Also, I have to say, "You do realize that 51% of marriages end in a divorce and rest are just losers that could not find anyone else?" made me laugh so hard. This was never really a discussion thread, and i'm not one to fan a flame war, but that was just rediculous. That's pretty much putting a sign on your head that says "I'm not getting any" on your forehead. Not saying anything about you (don't go throwin me some pm about how disgusted you are that I could fathom to insult you or anything), just that anyone who tries to throw down a gaunlet, online, with someone they don't know, over a question, they asked, about Pokemon, and has to do it via PM is not exactly something to write on your resume.

Oh and for those two slots, you might want to try out an anti Tangrowth tech. I'd speciulate that Blazekin FB LV.x would work well, and help against beedrill too. Plus it's quick damage output seems it would compliment Gyarados', espically when you consider all the 2-for-1 prizes you'll take off things with E-Belts. Though a 2-1 line would probably run better,

 

[calisupra2nr]

haha whatever I am perfectly fine with dropping this, really is making all of us look beyond immature.

 

[Jaeger]

It's immature, closed-minded attitudes like yours that make many people unwilling to offer advanced strategy on this board. You're effectively saying: "Nobody's saying what I want them to say, so obviously, their assistance is useless." After you have displayed such a terrible grasp of common logic, why would anyone (myself included) ever want to directly help you ever again?

+1 Pretty much why I avoid the deck help section (There is only so many times I can be told that I'm stupid becuase I don't think a deck needs 20 energy) and topic/people like this.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

You truly are pathetic. :lol: If only you did not have so many attributes that distinguish you as a loser...

I'm sorry, but I have more important things to do in life than construct a thesis just to help some random kid online. I work 40 hours a week, I'm taking a college class, I have a healthy long-term relationship with my girl, I'm helping my parents move, and I've been spending much of my limited free time making an article on the deck I used during BRs. Nobody in my position cares about proving themselves to someone who storms out of a BR when "accused of cheating."

I just can't get over the fact that you're unhappy that you're getting multiple answers to your strategy questions. Get off it, kid.

-Full Time Job
-Going To School
-Healthy long-term relationship

Yea guys a total loser

I've read this topic and I really think you need to start your own forum, with just yourself I think you would be much happier :thumb:

 

[Phazon Elite]

Anyway, back to the subject at hand . . . if you opt not to run Floatzel, you could run any of the following:
A more anti-Flygon engine (4 Candy and 2 BTS instead of the standard 4 BTS).
A 1-1-1 Dusknoir DP, if you can find another free slot (lets you eliminate a benched threat while still attacking the active).
Some easy-to-tech Fire type.
More miscellaneous crap.

That's just what I would try, personally.

(Just trying to get the thread back on track.)