Fossil Mulligan - Try to get better hand
- Thread starter Dratini_Joe3
- Start date
Here's a solution, pull all basics (non-fossils) from the deck and make the player pick one. Then, the player draws six cards and adds the basic picked to his hand. No more need to mulligan.
IMO, a judge CAN'T make a player play a Fossil if he doesn't want to. Nope, the only option here in my book is to either give the penalty OR force a random basic to be put in the starting hand. If there are NO basics in the deck, AND the player continues to mulligan, you penalize. It's that simple.
The violation is simply "game disruption." The penalty can go as fas as giving a game loss, nothing higher. The subjectivity is, how long do you let the mulliganing continue. 3-5 minutes is reasonable in my book. 10 minutes is too long.
Regarding someone's comment about giving a verbal warning before making a ruling, that's important, but not required. At home, I often keep my son "on his toes" by IMMEDIATELY punishing him when he does something wrong, not like my wife who sometimes gives numerous, meaningless warnings. JMO
IMO, a judge CAN'T make a player play a Fossil if he doesn't want to. Nope, the only option here in my book is to either give the penalty OR force a random basic to be put in the starting hand. If there are NO basics in the deck, AND the player continues to mulligan, you penalize. It's that simple.
The violation is simply "game disruption." The penalty can go as fas as giving a game loss, nothing higher. The subjectivity is, how long do you let the mulliganing continue. 3-5 minutes is reasonable in my book. 10 minutes is too long.
Regarding someone's comment about giving a verbal warning before making a ruling, that's important, but not required. At home, I often keep my son "on his toes" by IMMEDIATELY punishing him when he does something wrong, not like my wife who sometimes gives numerous, meaningless warnings. JMO
Last edited:
meganium45
Active Member
It is clear every gym is going to do this differently, and that is fine, until a ruling is made.
There are very few tier 2 viable decks that are Fossil ONLY. Armaldo/Omastar maybe.
Yes, we have to keep the game going, but setting a time limit for a starting hand seems to be the best answer. It would avoid the "one shot for one prize" tactic that has been implied (but to my knowledge never employed) before time is called.
Let's face it, by that point, my opponent will have the ralts, garde EX, warp point, boost, and anything else needed to take down the opponent quickly.
We will see how it goes...
Meganium45
There are very few tier 2 viable decks that are Fossil ONLY. Armaldo/Omastar maybe.
Yes, we have to keep the game going, but setting a time limit for a starting hand seems to be the best answer. It would avoid the "one shot for one prize" tactic that has been implied (but to my knowledge never employed) before time is called.
Let's face it, by that point, my opponent will have the ralts, garde EX, warp point, boost, and anything else needed to take down the opponent quickly.
We will see how it goes...
Meganium45
procrastination_alley said:
I really didn't build this deck to mulligan all the time and, actually, added Absol only as an afterthought (my Kabutops and Omastar needed something with a little extra kick).
The best case is to get a couple of fossils, a TV reporter, an Underground Lake, and at least one Omanyte or Kabuto. That's the BEST case.
The WORST case is to get the Absol and nothing else on the first draw. Ouch.
I have something of a procedural question.
I've been playing in league/tournaments where "setup" includes shuffling, drawing, mulliganing (if necessary), and setting out prizes.
First, is this appropriate for setup?
Second, if the answer to the first question is "Yes," then what is the rule for how much time is allowed for setup? Can you call delay of game during the setup phase???
I've been playing in league/tournaments where "setup" includes shuffling, drawing, mulliganing (if necessary), and setting out prizes.
First, is this appropriate for setup?
Second, if the answer to the first question is "Yes," then what is the rule for how much time is allowed for setup? Can you call delay of game during the setup phase???
What if there was a rule that said after player A muligans player B may draw 1 card and may then shuffle up to 2 cards back into his/her deck? After so many muligans player B would have the perfect bench and hand. This would be almost impossible for player A to recover from I would think. I suppose you would still have to have a rule that said that actual play had to begin after so much time, but I think that if a player knows that his/her opponet will start shuffling cards back into his/her deck after so many muligans it would kind of eliminate the insentive to play such a deck.
Until this discussion came up, I thought the mulligan rule for fossil was an ok judgment call. Now with further talks and thought, it is not. It is totally unfair to a player that doesn’t play fossils. If you are going to count a fossil as a basic in the opening hand then it is one! not a choice to choose if it is or not compared to the rest of your hand! Which is the choice that a fossil player gets to make that a player that doesn’t play fossils doesn’t get to make. THAT IS THE UNFAIR PART! That the basic setup rule that applies a chance in the game has just been taken away/lessened when you play fossils. The ruling needs to be overturned quickly in making fossils a basic pokemon in the open hand! No if, ands, or but choices to compare to the rest of your hand.
On another note on fossils, why is considered a handicap if you start with a fossil?
(I think this because you get to mulligan even if you have one in your hand)
I think they have the advantage in many ways over your regular basic pokemon:
Not effect by status effects.
No prize when K.O.ed.
Most H.P. equal to regular pokemon.
Auto switch built in (discard without a penalty)
In ending, how can anyone think that you are at a disadvantage when using a fossil and deserve special treatment to decide if you like the rest of your hand or not , when that is not offered to all players on an equal platform!
On another note on fossils, why is considered a handicap if you start with a fossil?
(I think this because you get to mulligan even if you have one in your hand)
I think they have the advantage in many ways over your regular basic pokemon:
Not effect by status effects.
No prize when K.O.ed.
Most H.P. equal to regular pokemon.
Auto switch built in (discard without a penalty)
In ending, how can anyone think that you are at a disadvantage when using a fossil and deserve special treatment to decide if you like the rest of your hand or not , when that is not offered to all players on an equal platform!
NoPoke
Active Member
fossils aren't pokemon when in your deck hand or discard pile. This puts the fossils at a distinct disadvantage over other BASICS. I suspect this is the reason why the rule change was introduced.
Alternatively it could be that the Fossils are just really really old and crusty and haven't caught up with the game yet.
You have identified exactly why the fossils make such good filler cards in decks that have space for them.
Alternatively it could be that the Fossils are just really really old and crusty and haven't caught up with the game yet.
You have identified exactly why the fossils make such good filler cards in decks that have space for them.
Last edited:
Bigpoppabeatdown
New Member
vince-- i hope you will have a set rule for your CC's or i just plain won't show up....... i'm sure i'll see one there (no names mentioned) and if there is a reoccurrence of last saturday, i just will call him for stalling after the 5th or sixth mulligan when they could have a viable and decent hand.........
to me that is twisting the rules that haven't been looked at........
i think if you have 3 or more fossils, then you should be forced to play it......
and 10 minutes???? come on...... 5 minutes is long enough.......
make sure that there is no time extension for someone that does this as it there was no outside force that delayed the game..........
i just think that anyone that does that to get a GOD hand is a n00b and doesn't deserve recognition
AAARRGG
to me that is twisting the rules that haven't been looked at........
i think if you have 3 or more fossils, then you should be forced to play it......
and 10 minutes???? come on...... 5 minutes is long enough.......
make sure that there is no time extension for someone that does this as it there was no outside force that delayed the game..........
i just think that anyone that does that to get a GOD hand is a n00b and doesn't deserve recognition
AAARRGG
Bigpoppabeatdown said:
NO WAY MAN!!! You CAN'T make a player do something AGAINST the RULES. But, your first statement was "right on the money."
Bigpoppabeatdown said:
A judge certainly can penalize disruptive behavor, even if that behavior doesn't violate any rules.
I'm seeing TOO MANY judges on this topic (who don't like the fossil mulligan rule) talking about enacting BAD RULINGS when the ONLY APPROPRIATE ruling is to penalize, NOT force someone to play fossils.
Listen, this violation is akin to stalling. If I observe someone stalling, I'm NOT going to make them play a particular card or play a particular way. I'm JUST going to penalize. That's all ANY DECENT judge CAN do and SHOULD do, nothing more.
Also, regarding setup time. At our Colorado tournaments, we have 33-minute rounds, allowing up to 3 minutes for setup. Any setup that takes beyond 3 minutes (including mulligans) could be considered disruptive in my book (especially if that delay involved voluntary actions like the fossil mulligan).
Last edited:
Bigpoppabeatdown
New Member
steve, i didn't mean that a judge should force them to play it, but i think that a new ruling SUCH as that could speed things up..........
unfortunately my TO doesn't seem to care if they stall since he's in favor of this rule..........
that will just truly irk me if i get stalled by someone who spent 10 minutes to get the hand that they want
to me that's just as bad as someone cheating!!
i just want this to be resolved before the CC that i'm going to on the 28th
unfortunately my TO doesn't seem to care if they stall since he's in favor of this rule..........
that will just truly irk me if i get stalled by someone who spent 10 minutes to get the hand that they want
to me that's just as bad as someone cheating!!
i just want this to be resolved before the CC that i'm going to on the 28th
PokePop said:
Offically, couldn't we call it stalling? I mean, if a person is 5 minutes late for a match they can lose a prize in some tourneys, no? That is where I'd start after a warning.
That said, I think the 'perfect fossil' deck is daring and the rule is good. Keeping the person from stalling such that they time advantage as well keeps it from being 'bad for the game'.
Bigpoppabeatdown
New Member
i don't know, i would rather that a set rule be enforced because the rules shouldn't change between TO's
that would just seem to be disruptive to the game whenever someone plays differently
i just don't like that idea and there should be some sort of limit to playable mulligans
that would just seem to be disruptive to the game whenever someone plays differently
i just don't like that idea and there should be some sort of limit to playable mulligans
If you look in the "Pokemon Organized Play Floor Rules",it states therein that you have a "Pregame Setup" in which both players are to set up and have their respective hands ready for play before the match starts.Since there are no Penalty guidelines as of yet,and like the 33 minute rounds(3 minutes for setup and 30 mins for play) that was mentioned above which we have used in the past as well,if a player isn`t ready to play at that time,it could be subject to penalization at the Judges discretion.3 minutes is more than enough time for both players to get ready for the match.
NoPoke
Active Member
Judges have discression on how they apply penalties.
If a player travels and pays to enter a tournament then I'd say that they were willing to play regardless of their deck.
A full shuffle to randomise a deck requires at least 7 riffles: the experts at Las vegas can do this quickly and take upto 20 seconds for a shuffle. I'm no expert and consider one minute for randomisation to be reasonable. ALMOST ALL PLAYERS DONT RANDOMISE THEIR DECKS WHEN THEY SHUFFLE. However they do usually do enough to ensure that they no longer know what is on the top. Mulligan twice and with full randomisation many players would struggle to get set up within three minutes.
Guidelines are good. Fixed Penalties aren't.
----------
If you are planning on playing a Muligan deck at a tournament I'd STRONGLY advise you to find out how the head judge will rule on the inevitable repeated mulligans.
Personally I'd only be looking for disruption and unfairness to your opponent. The penalty for such a severe infraction is probably a match loss. I'd not want to give anyone a match loss for failing to get set up within 3 minutes, 5 minutes or even 10 minutes as long as there are making best effort to get set up. However by 20 minutes I'd take some convincing that a game/match loss penalty isn't appropriate.
So if you want to play this kind of deck. Don't rely upon absolutely uniform judging. Find out what the TO/HJ view is before you enter the tournament.
You can get a flavour of the variety of response you can expect at a tournament by reading the earlier posts. Some will be tollerant and some draconian.
If a player travels and pays to enter a tournament then I'd say that they were willing to play regardless of their deck.
A full shuffle to randomise a deck requires at least 7 riffles: the experts at Las vegas can do this quickly and take upto 20 seconds for a shuffle. I'm no expert and consider one minute for randomisation to be reasonable. ALMOST ALL PLAYERS DONT RANDOMISE THEIR DECKS WHEN THEY SHUFFLE. However they do usually do enough to ensure that they no longer know what is on the top. Mulligan twice and with full randomisation many players would struggle to get set up within three minutes.
Guidelines are good. Fixed Penalties aren't.
----------
If you are planning on playing a Muligan deck at a tournament I'd STRONGLY advise you to find out how the head judge will rule on the inevitable repeated mulligans.
Personally I'd only be looking for disruption and unfairness to your opponent. The penalty for such a severe infraction is probably a match loss. I'd not want to give anyone a match loss for failing to get set up within 3 minutes, 5 minutes or even 10 minutes as long as there are making best effort to get set up. However by 20 minutes I'd take some convincing that a game/match loss penalty isn't appropriate.
So if you want to play this kind of deck. Don't rely upon absolutely uniform judging. Find out what the TO/HJ view is before you enter the tournament.
You can get a flavour of the variety of response you can expect at a tournament by reading the earlier posts. Some will be tollerant and some draconian.
meganium45
Active Member
Scott, to let you know, I plan on enforcing the following set of rules at my events:
Once the match has begun, each player has 5 minutes to set up their play area, including resolving mulligans. First infraction is a warning, second a prize penalty (after 3 additional minutes), or upon second infraction in the tourney.
If he starts to stack shuffle after each mulligan, I will be watching closely.
It is going to be moot, in that I did not mulligan in 3 of my 6 matches this weekend (took second overall, second in division). The deck seems to find one of its 4 pokemon pretty easily.
He is talking about not even playing that deck anyway....
Meganium45
Once the match has begun, each player has 5 minutes to set up their play area, including resolving mulligans. First infraction is a warning, second a prize penalty (after 3 additional minutes), or upon second infraction in the tourney.
If he starts to stack shuffle after each mulligan, I will be watching closely.
It is going to be moot, in that I did not mulligan in 3 of my 6 matches this weekend (took second overall, second in division). The deck seems to find one of its 4 pokemon pretty easily.
He is talking about not even playing that deck anyway....
Meganium45