Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Game Organization

M

mysterioustrainer

Active Member
There is one problem I always find when judging any Pokemon Trading Card Game event and that is game organization. What I mean is I am always trying to figure out where the prizes, deck, played cards, and the trash pile is. There have been times I have had to given game loss/prize penalties for mixed cards just because of carelessness. So I am wondering how we the judge community can help improve this.

First off, I always permit the use of half game mats for players who want them. I think they are a perfect way to help keep things organized. I know expert players think of them as a pain and I don't mind them not using them, however I hate it when they put their prizes in the same general area with their deck. What do you think?

Second do you think we should enforce players to follow standard game organization as displayed by a playmat? I greatly encourage my players to follow it, however do you think it would make things better as an enforced rule?

Any ideas to help players from making chaos from this?
 
Well, one thing that is on the rise beacuse of Blaze decks (and we had back during the Gatr days) is multiple discard piles. Players want to keep their energies separate from their discard pile instead of rifling thru it to get their energies. IMO, this is a huge no-no. I know under WotC (esp. MTM) this was a pet peeve - I've seen him hand out prize swaps up to game losses for it. I advise players to turn their energies sideways in their discard pile to make it easier.

I think as long as the piles are orderly (and not really piles, you know what I'm talking about, a mound of cards) and everything is readilly identifyable by both players and the wandering judge, it's ok.

I always make sure that players are displaying things like attached energies, tools, etc are always public knowledge, and not stacked. This does tend to clutter things a bit, but it leads to a firmer understanding of the game state for both players and myself.

Should we use the playmat approach, sure. It's not always feasable due to space availabilty, but it is a good rule of thumb. I haven't had much problem with it, but your area may differ.
 
I will agree with Steve, but I think MTM went a bit overboard on his "multiple discard pile" rulings. Just kept players from keeping their basic energy on the top of the discard, and having to count it every few moments.

We haven't gone to playmats yet, but I believe in enforcing the rule that you have to show every item which is on your card, energy, tool, damage counter, weakness guard, and not just leave them stacked on top of each other.

Also all damage counters have to be on the card. Having them on the side, or otherwise marked leads to too many arguments potentially. I am very tempted to required dice be used for damage counters, given the fact that they do not take up much room on a card, but haven't quite gone that far yet.

The object is to have players play where each knows what they are up against, and they are not "surprised" by a double rainbow jumping out from under the Pokemon.

That Double Rainbow has to keep all judges on their toes, especially by younger players who evolve with the card attached...

OK, my 2 cents...

Meganium45
 
Yeah,I don`t have a problem with the players keeping their energy separate for those decks.It actually speeds up the game instead of slowing it down by the person having to dig out the energies.Thats a good thing as we all know...

We use older playmats(all companies removed...) but you still have players that have cards all over the place.I find myself asking at every tournament about which pile is which because they have it so disorganized.Most players are good about it,but you always have a few "messy" ones.You can remind them about it,but you can only do so much.

I also agree about the "stacked" cards.This is really annoying,and although I`m sure most players do this unintentionally,a few do it to "cheat" by their opponent not being able to see it(and therefor don`t ask) and then forget that the other player had attached whatever energies. I try to catch this whenever I can and maybe we should announce something to the effect that this won`t be allowed at an event and that you have to play with all your cards in view.

`Sensei
 
Giday

I actually strongly encourage our players to layout the cards as per the rule book.

The reasoning behind this when they ask is ...

IF they attend a World Champs, there will be players from other countries. They will expect you to lay the cards out properly so they know what is what on your side of the table. You should be able to expect the same as a result.

My feeling is that we as Judges should strongly encourage the correct layout, starting at league level. Once a player has done it correctly for a while, it becomes habit.

This would hugely reduce the confusion at the bigger events & make our day slightly easier.
 
We always get the players to layout the table as per the WotC playmats. I don't mind the energy being seperated and placed ontop of the "trash" pile but I don't like multiple piles for the discard/trash pile.

Anyhow consistancy is needed so that players and judges know what they are looking at. I take it the NOA playmats layout the table the same as the WotC ones?
 
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I like the simple idea of the half play mat and allowing players to have the mat in front of them so to make it easier. I also like steves idea of having the energy flipped over so its easier to find them in deck. I know its a huge dillema to see 2 decks for a blaze deck and get confused and yes it is a big no-no because it gets the trainers confused and sometimes lost.

If it was me judging id set up play mats for the tournmant and allow and let the players know that all energy must be left in the discard and if found having 2 discards piles you will be penalized.
 
I usually ask my players to not only keep their discard pile face up, but to turn it 90 degrees...so the cards are <-> rather than ^ .

'mom
 
Good idea PokeMom (sideways discard pile).

One of the toughest judgement calls I ever had to make was when a player accidently drew prizes when he meant to draw from his deck. The reason? He placed his prizes (in a pile) right next to his deck. (The tough part was determining the penalty, and how many prizes he drew, especially since both players disputed that.)

Also, one of my best players prefers to place his draw deck in the middle right below his bench. It's confusing sometimes for his opponent because when I draws his start-of-turn card, it's so subtle that sometimes his opponents dispute whether he did/didn't draw a card.

Game place mats are nice. It would be nice if we could have them for at least the younger players at every tournament.
 
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Like Sensei I don't have a problem with players keeping energy in a separate pile as long as it is orderly. I also don't like players not showing all energies, tools, etc... attached to their Pokemon. One other thing I have noticed is some players will discard a supporter just played before the end of their turn. When I see this I always make sure to point out to keep it in the play area and discard at the end of the turn. A few tournaments ago I did have a situation where one player used Dunsparce's Strike and Run and before completing the effect (switching Dunsparce) allowed his opponent to go. Needless to say the playing just starting his turn tried to attack and thought the defending was supposed to be Dunsparce. This leads me to another question to add: Do you require a player to complete all actions of an attack before allowing the opponent to start their their even if that player says it is okay for the player to start ?
 
I'm OK with people doing things like Eeeeeeek! and allowing their opponent to go while they sort out their hand, but something like changing their active....

I'd rule that he forfeited that part of the Strike and Run.
It is an optional switch and he gained an advantage by making his opponent think that he had one target when he really had (or was going to have) another.
His opponent's attack on the Dunsparse would go forward, IMO.
 
AAgh

This was driving me crazy at the IN States.

I moved several players cards to the correct places.

I even saw in a row all face down on one side of the table
Deck
Prizes
Discard pile
ALL FACE DOWN

I fixed that quickly.

Every one should conform to the correct way so each player knows what pile is what.
 
PokePop said:
I'm OK with people doing things like Eeeeeeek! and allowing their opponent to go while they sort out their hand, but something like changing their active....

I'd rule that he forfeited that part of the Strike and Run.
It is an optional switch and he gained an advantage by making his opponent think that he had one target when he really had (or was going to have) another.
His opponent's attack on the Dunsparse would go forward, IMO.
Click to expand...

Hmmnnnn what happens if a player is stalling (not blatent but it could be done) the final seconds of a game searching for a card w strike and run....Then the oponent has a habbit of drawing a card when the Dunsparce playing player is searching.

Time expires!

player two now wants to finish his/her turn because she/he drew a card, but Player one still has one card to search for and lay down.....

Ahhhh the ugliness that will occur.

Moral of the story: DONT LET A PLAYER DRAW A CARD UNTIL DUNSPARCES ATTACK AND ALL ITS SEARCHING AND SWITCHING EFFECTS HAVE BEEN ACCOUNTED FOR. AND PENALIZE ANY PLAYER FOR STALLING ;)
 
meganium45 said:
I am very tempted to required dice be used for damage counters, given the fact that they do not take up much room on a card, but haven't quite gone that far yet.
Click to expand...

I'd like to take this opportunity to make a point for discussion.
I have heard twice now in two different events a judge make statements like: "you can only use 6 sided dice", "you cannot use any plastic coins".
Folks - this is NOT what we are supposed to do as judges IMHO. What is and is not legal randomization devices was established long ago and upheld many times. The list of specific items that are not to be used as randomization devices is very small. To my knowledge nobody has EVER specified or restricted damage counters.
There is only one coin that is prohibited and that is the yellow Lugia token that was included with one of the movies - it is not really a coin. The plastic coins that come with the Japanese and newer precon decks are legal coins as are the older pressed foil coins with the American precons.
The only other randomization device prohibited is any computerized/programmed flipper such as a Palm Pilot, PocketPC, or the flippers that are scanned into the GBA via the eCard Reader from one of the Pokemon card barcodes. The pure electronic devices like the Electro-flips (two LED's) sold at the WCSTS and ECSTS have been ruled legal for play.
I would like to add that it has always been policy that the players understand and agree to the system being used for dice or that may in fact be specified by the judge so all players are on the same page - It is generally universal that heads are even numbers and odds is tails. Also I have had to prohibit certain dice simply because they did not represent the numbers fairly - odd sided dice, or even worse - the oblong dice made by Crystal Caste.
But the normal round D6, D8, D12 & D20 are all acceptable to my knowledge as approved randomization devices and should not be banned or retsricted.
To the same end a player may not restrict his opponent from using a particular device if it is normally approved. He may however demand to use it himself if he desires.
The only time I know of that the type of randomization device used was specified was when WotC specified everyone had to use the Heads/Tails dice they distributed (WCSTS?). It was universally despised and it never happened again.
Comments? Flames?
 
Even = Heads

Odd = Tails

I once played someone who insisted we play Even = Tails, etc. I refused, so we had to use a coin.

As long as one player is not confused by the way the other player does things (damage counters, randomizers, etc), there should be no dispute.

I agree that TOs and HJs should be careful NOT to set restrictions on what kind of randomizers and damage counters are allowed/disallowed.

Now, if the playing space is tight, that's a separate issue. Once, at a prelease in our cozy little gaming area, we had over 50 players (normally holds only 40). I was more concerned about players mixing cards with their neighbors than I was about conserving playing space.

Finally, I know of only ONE randomizer that was specifically ruled as NOT ALLOWED. That's the Lugia yellow plastic coin that came with a Pokemon Video.
 
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SteveP said:
Finally, I know of only ONE randomizer that was specifically ruled as NOT ALLOWED. That's the Lugia yellow plastic coin that came with a Pokemon Video.
Click to expand...
Correct - but WotC did also say the GBA or handheld PROGRAMMABLE devices were disallowed. As a software person I'm sure you can appreciate why.
 
ScythKing said:
As a software person I'm sure you can appreciate why.
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Absolutely!! I learned that the HARD WAY, back in my early programming childhood. I forget to use a Random seed for my Random number generator and couldn't figure out why I always generated the same sequence of numbers everytime I ran my program? Doohh!!!
 
Ok now a thought on counters for dammage.
Help me weigh these options
Dice:
Less clutter in the playing area.
But can accidentally be moved/rolled over. This is most problamatic with younger players

Paper markers from Pre Cons
Clutter the area

Little Rocks (pollished or other)
Clutter the area

All markers have the problem of being strewn about when dice or flipping coins run amuck.

I really think this topic (clean and organized playing space) is a good one as we move on to more important tournament play.
 
ScythKing started a topic about judges restricting what type of damage counters and randomizers are allowed, but I can't seem to find that topic.

Sometimes, as judges, we walk by a match and see what we think to be a cluttered game area. Yet, the players are completely organized "in their mind" about the game state. When I personally see a "cluttered" game area, I usually ask the players a couple questions to verify that neither are confused about the game status. If at least one of them can't answer my questions, only then do I act.

One of the biggest problems I've noticed is when players use dice for both damage and randomizer. If they run out of dice to roll, I've seen players take the damage dice of a Pokemon to roll it. On NUMEROUS occassions, I've seen players forget how much damage they had. I've also seen some players use coins as damage counters, then use those same coins as randomizers.

My old suggestion is for players to:

1. If they use dice (or coins) for both damage and randomizer, use a different color or type of dice (or coin) for the randomizer.

2. NEVER let your opponent remove damage because they need a randomizer.
 
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