Ignatious
New Member
I've tested this deck quite extensively. Online. In person. Skype. Solitaires. I've played it vs almost all decks that are widely accepted in BW - on. I'm going to refer to the deck name as simply "Garchomp" from here on out. Garchomp clearly has an inherent advantage against a few of these new decks. Empoleon and Fighting Basic Rush are two clear examples.
These were two of the first decks I built for BW - on. Because of these advantages, I instantly assumed Garchomp was the real deal. Eventually I hit some bad luck and some very hard match ups. It seems the deck has some severe flaws that I believe hold it back from being truly viable. Here are some flaws;
Weak early game. The deck needs a few turns to set up. A T2 Garchomp is possible, but usually very weak assuming he has only 1 energy and you have 0-1 Alteria in play. This issue is bad, but going second makes it huge. Any deck that can Turn 1 with Rayquaza has an automatic chance at steamrolling Garchomp. If Garchomp doesn't have extraordinary draws, it will lose. This can also be true with Mewtwo, however he needs effective energy accel to back him up, such as in an Eel deck. Setting up can be hard. Setting up under a bombardment of damage + catchers can be near impossible.
Needs to run hot. T1 you need at least 2 Gible in play, and if you want an aggressive T2, you'll need a Swablu as well, or you must refrain from using Emolga for your energy drop. You need to hit a Gabite along with a RC (if you want a T2) along with MORE basics and as many evolutions as possible. You must replace any KOed pokemon. The early game demands get worse, as many of my games have been decided simply because I couldn't hit Super Rod in time. I run 3 as it is. Some turns you'll need RC, Catcher and Super Rod. Good luck. Even with semi difficult to draw items, the deck never stops setting up. You need to constantly be replacing every broken piece of your in play puzzle, while also hitting the items needed to stay in the game.
Deck space. The deck needs a thick line of both Chomp and Alteria to remain effective. The SKELETON lines are seen as 4-3-3, and 3-3. I have yet to see a build g below that (all have gone above, actually) and that's already 16 Slots. Then you have Super Rods. Rare Candys. Emolgas. These take up at least 10 more deck slots. You need 10 Energy at least and 14 Supporters at least. You have 10 spaces left for deck 'juices', but unfortunately you must spend them on Level Balls and Communications, leaving room for Catcher as your only trick. With so much space eaten up, it's also very natural to have opening hands full of cards you cannot play. Not even just opening hands. Drawing dead after N or Juniper is all too common as well.
Bad prizes/Juniper. If you cut some corners and run thin dragon lines, and even if you don't; prizes will lose you many games. It is all too common for a Swablu/Alteria to be prized, and at the same time, a Swablu is KOed on T1 or T2. Leaving me with one, and putting me in a rough spot to hit that prize or Super Rod. Every single card is incredibly crucial, and prizes will punish you for this. Even playing Juniper will end up hurting a lot. Unfortunately though, with such a demanding set up, playing Juniper is a necessary evil. As are prizes. They are just worse evils for this particular deck.
Donks. 40 HP Swablu? Dragon weak Gible? This goes into weak opening, but I feel this if different enough for it's own category.
I've found the deck honestly to simply be bad. Vs random decks I don't win as hard as I should, I don't beat players I feel I should, and I lose to good players with legit decks all of the time. I must be out of the loop, but I've even gone as far as to net deck some good lists I've seen online. I went card for card with 2 different 'respected' lists. No success.
Here is where I am at with my match ups;
Vs Empoleon; +1
You both strive to hit evolutions fast. Both decks usually do this very effectively. Unfortunately there comes a point where Garchomp can and will OHKO Empoleons. Not only this, but even without Alteria's damage boost, Garchomp wins the 2HKO war by having a much more reliable "bounce back" via Dragon Call.
Vs Rush; +1
They can't reliably attack fast. They can't rely on DCE at all. Period. If the game state comes to a point where Rush has 0 energy in play and is staring down a Garchomp or two; the match up becomes ridiculously lop sided. Without DCE, Mewtwo is only an average attacker at best by trading KOs with Chomps and being unable to KO Alteria. Terrakion EX was the only reliable attacker I've found vs Garchomp, but trading KOs is just bad when it's an EX for not an EX.
Here's where it goes downhill.
Vs Mewtwo Eels; -2
They attack on the second turn, grabbing a prize on this turn, nearly every game. Swablu is such an easy KO; basic Outrage OHKOs it. If you are so unfortunate that you start with it, you most likely will lose the game, or basically lose the game depending on if you play first or not. They will grab an average of 2 prizes before you start attacking. Raiku OHKOs Alterias/Gabites. ZekEx OHKOs Chomp. Catcher KOs without needing to toss energy. It's so easy for them to start taking prizes and ultimately is very hard to stop them. The only time I've managed to beat this deck in the hands of a good player, has been vs a no supporter hand.
Vs Ray Eels; -1
This match up is actually easier. They still KO fast, but it's easier to return KOs vs a dragon weak attacker. Alteria isn't even needed at all. Only one is good vs Eviolite. There is also a fun chance of them missing the fire energy they need. If they do, they'll just attack with something else honestly, but at least they won't have a strong foundation with either Mewtwo or ZekEx if they do choose a different attacker. Hope they start with RayEX and you'll be in okay shape.
Vs Gothitelle/Accelgor; 0
Finally a deck as slow as yours. Unfortunately you can't rely on Alteria OR Emolga too much. Why? 50 base damage with poison becomes 60 damage. After my paralyzed and locked turn is over my active will have 70 damage on it. The exact HP of Emolga and Alteria. If you have these guys out, they can string KO after KO after KO with catchers, while you can literally do nothing about it. Without Alteria, you can't OHKO Gothitelle. So for each Gothitelle KO you nab, they can have 2 Garchomp KOs. Vs this deck you basically need to attack T2 and have Swablus ready to evolve. Hope their set up is too slow and KO crucial Accelgors, and if need be, evolve both Swablu to OHKO a crucial Goth.
Vs Darkrai Hydreigon; 0
This is supposed to be the 'savior match up'. This match up is widely concluded as not only advantageous, but STRONGLY advantageous. I disagree completely. The usual response is ERMAHGERD I OHKO HYDREIGONZZ!!11! Let's fast forward through a typical game where this happens. You've KOed 3 Hyreigon in a row an have only 3 prizes left. Now look at your opponent's prizes. They have 3 left as well. And 2 Darkrai. Eviolited. With 3 energy on each. They begin charging a third. Look back at your field. Have you been hitting Super Rods? Well you've already hit the Catchers you needed so if you also hit the Super Rods as well I'd just attribute that to unnatural good luck. Even if you have, you have 0-1 Catchers left and they can keep a solid stream of attacks by retreating and attacking fresh. If they honestly need to they can Max Potion a Darkrai if it means staying in the game. You can't stop them from KOing things, and you still need to be hitting your evolutions/Super Rods to hang in there. Ultimately the match up is only even because it's more likely for Garchomp to play aggressively and score a KO T2. If not for that I'd put the match up at -1.
The match ups have been very bad. Combine these horrible match ups with the horrible flaws. The match ups I wrote above assumed Garchomp could actually set up and keep setting up. They also assumed that Prizes/discards were affordable. Those flaws added to these bad match ups makes the deck downright awful.
The logic can used "opponents deck may not work" and "opponents can have bad prizes". My whole point though, is that this particular deck specifically is more vulnerable to these flaws and any other deck. By far. While also simply being weak in general compared to other decks, hence the poor showing of match ups.
What am I missing? I honestly believe I am missing something, there are simply too many advocates for this deck for it to be so bad. Am I missing a slight but gigantic tactic? Would you say I'm simply unlucky?
Either way I'm so far positive that this deck is all hype and very bad. Your thoughts?
These were two of the first decks I built for BW - on. Because of these advantages, I instantly assumed Garchomp was the real deal. Eventually I hit some bad luck and some very hard match ups. It seems the deck has some severe flaws that I believe hold it back from being truly viable. Here are some flaws;
Weak early game. The deck needs a few turns to set up. A T2 Garchomp is possible, but usually very weak assuming he has only 1 energy and you have 0-1 Alteria in play. This issue is bad, but going second makes it huge. Any deck that can Turn 1 with Rayquaza has an automatic chance at steamrolling Garchomp. If Garchomp doesn't have extraordinary draws, it will lose. This can also be true with Mewtwo, however he needs effective energy accel to back him up, such as in an Eel deck. Setting up can be hard. Setting up under a bombardment of damage + catchers can be near impossible.
Needs to run hot. T1 you need at least 2 Gible in play, and if you want an aggressive T2, you'll need a Swablu as well, or you must refrain from using Emolga for your energy drop. You need to hit a Gabite along with a RC (if you want a T2) along with MORE basics and as many evolutions as possible. You must replace any KOed pokemon. The early game demands get worse, as many of my games have been decided simply because I couldn't hit Super Rod in time. I run 3 as it is. Some turns you'll need RC, Catcher and Super Rod. Good luck. Even with semi difficult to draw items, the deck never stops setting up. You need to constantly be replacing every broken piece of your in play puzzle, while also hitting the items needed to stay in the game.
Deck space. The deck needs a thick line of both Chomp and Alteria to remain effective. The SKELETON lines are seen as 4-3-3, and 3-3. I have yet to see a build g below that (all have gone above, actually) and that's already 16 Slots. Then you have Super Rods. Rare Candys. Emolgas. These take up at least 10 more deck slots. You need 10 Energy at least and 14 Supporters at least. You have 10 spaces left for deck 'juices', but unfortunately you must spend them on Level Balls and Communications, leaving room for Catcher as your only trick. With so much space eaten up, it's also very natural to have opening hands full of cards you cannot play. Not even just opening hands. Drawing dead after N or Juniper is all too common as well.
Bad prizes/Juniper. If you cut some corners and run thin dragon lines, and even if you don't; prizes will lose you many games. It is all too common for a Swablu/Alteria to be prized, and at the same time, a Swablu is KOed on T1 or T2. Leaving me with one, and putting me in a rough spot to hit that prize or Super Rod. Every single card is incredibly crucial, and prizes will punish you for this. Even playing Juniper will end up hurting a lot. Unfortunately though, with such a demanding set up, playing Juniper is a necessary evil. As are prizes. They are just worse evils for this particular deck.
Donks. 40 HP Swablu? Dragon weak Gible? This goes into weak opening, but I feel this if different enough for it's own category.
I've found the deck honestly to simply be bad. Vs random decks I don't win as hard as I should, I don't beat players I feel I should, and I lose to good players with legit decks all of the time. I must be out of the loop, but I've even gone as far as to net deck some good lists I've seen online. I went card for card with 2 different 'respected' lists. No success.
Here is where I am at with my match ups;
Vs Empoleon; +1
You both strive to hit evolutions fast. Both decks usually do this very effectively. Unfortunately there comes a point where Garchomp can and will OHKO Empoleons. Not only this, but even without Alteria's damage boost, Garchomp wins the 2HKO war by having a much more reliable "bounce back" via Dragon Call.
Vs Rush; +1
They can't reliably attack fast. They can't rely on DCE at all. Period. If the game state comes to a point where Rush has 0 energy in play and is staring down a Garchomp or two; the match up becomes ridiculously lop sided. Without DCE, Mewtwo is only an average attacker at best by trading KOs with Chomps and being unable to KO Alteria. Terrakion EX was the only reliable attacker I've found vs Garchomp, but trading KOs is just bad when it's an EX for not an EX.
Here's where it goes downhill.
Vs Mewtwo Eels; -2
They attack on the second turn, grabbing a prize on this turn, nearly every game. Swablu is such an easy KO; basic Outrage OHKOs it. If you are so unfortunate that you start with it, you most likely will lose the game, or basically lose the game depending on if you play first or not. They will grab an average of 2 prizes before you start attacking. Raiku OHKOs Alterias/Gabites. ZekEx OHKOs Chomp. Catcher KOs without needing to toss energy. It's so easy for them to start taking prizes and ultimately is very hard to stop them. The only time I've managed to beat this deck in the hands of a good player, has been vs a no supporter hand.
Vs Ray Eels; -1
This match up is actually easier. They still KO fast, but it's easier to return KOs vs a dragon weak attacker. Alteria isn't even needed at all. Only one is good vs Eviolite. There is also a fun chance of them missing the fire energy they need. If they do, they'll just attack with something else honestly, but at least they won't have a strong foundation with either Mewtwo or ZekEx if they do choose a different attacker. Hope they start with RayEX and you'll be in okay shape.
Vs Gothitelle/Accelgor; 0
Finally a deck as slow as yours. Unfortunately you can't rely on Alteria OR Emolga too much. Why? 50 base damage with poison becomes 60 damage. After my paralyzed and locked turn is over my active will have 70 damage on it. The exact HP of Emolga and Alteria. If you have these guys out, they can string KO after KO after KO with catchers, while you can literally do nothing about it. Without Alteria, you can't OHKO Gothitelle. So for each Gothitelle KO you nab, they can have 2 Garchomp KOs. Vs this deck you basically need to attack T2 and have Swablus ready to evolve. Hope their set up is too slow and KO crucial Accelgors, and if need be, evolve both Swablu to OHKO a crucial Goth.
Vs Darkrai Hydreigon; 0
This is supposed to be the 'savior match up'. This match up is widely concluded as not only advantageous, but STRONGLY advantageous. I disagree completely. The usual response is ERMAHGERD I OHKO HYDREIGONZZ!!11! Let's fast forward through a typical game where this happens. You've KOed 3 Hyreigon in a row an have only 3 prizes left. Now look at your opponent's prizes. They have 3 left as well. And 2 Darkrai. Eviolited. With 3 energy on each. They begin charging a third. Look back at your field. Have you been hitting Super Rods? Well you've already hit the Catchers you needed so if you also hit the Super Rods as well I'd just attribute that to unnatural good luck. Even if you have, you have 0-1 Catchers left and they can keep a solid stream of attacks by retreating and attacking fresh. If they honestly need to they can Max Potion a Darkrai if it means staying in the game. You can't stop them from KOing things, and you still need to be hitting your evolutions/Super Rods to hang in there. Ultimately the match up is only even because it's more likely for Garchomp to play aggressively and score a KO T2. If not for that I'd put the match up at -1.
The match ups have been very bad. Combine these horrible match ups with the horrible flaws. The match ups I wrote above assumed Garchomp could actually set up and keep setting up. They also assumed that Prizes/discards were affordable. Those flaws added to these bad match ups makes the deck downright awful.
The logic can used "opponents deck may not work" and "opponents can have bad prizes". My whole point though, is that this particular deck specifically is more vulnerable to these flaws and any other deck. By far. While also simply being weak in general compared to other decks, hence the poor showing of match ups.
What am I missing? I honestly believe I am missing something, there are simply too many advocates for this deck for it to be so bad. Am I missing a slight but gigantic tactic? Would you say I'm simply unlucky?
Either way I'm so far positive that this deck is all hype and very bad. Your thoughts?
Last edited:
