King Piplup
Active Member
Do find a deck running 30 items and get back to me...
30 Items/Supporters/Stadiums is a little low, but 30 items alone is stupid high in everything save Quad Decks.
Ghetsis
- Thread starter FSULugia
- Start date
30 Items/Supporters/Stadiums is a little low, but 30 items alone is stupid high in everything save Quad Decks.
pokemonjoe
New Member
My bad. I mistook items for trainers.
Charranitar
Member
Here were the item counts I had in my decks:
Darkrai:
2 Ultra Ball
1 Computer Search
4 Dark Patch
3 Pokedex
3 Ether
4 Pokemon Catcher
4 Energy Switch
Total: 21
Blastoise:
4 Ultra Ball
4 Rare Candy
4 Pokemon Catcher
4 Energy Retrieval
1 Computer Search
1 Tool Scrapper
1 Max Potion
1 Super Rod
Total: 20
Here is a recap of all of the decks I have built from last format and the number of Items they played:
Darkrai - 21 (for next format)
Blastoise - 20 (from last format)
Tornadus/Landorus - 22 (from last format)
Klinklang - 17
Quad Sigilyph - 26
Excadrill - 22
Hydreigon - 20
RayEels - 18
Ho-Oh - 22
Landorus/Mewtwo/Terrakion - 24
Garchomp/Landorus - 17
So on the low end, I have 17, which would be an average 2 cards in a 7 card hand, and 26 on the high end, which would be 3. When you compound this by the other factors of not always having a 7 card hand, playing down Items when you get them, and then it's clear to see why Ghetsis isn't very strong.
Darkrai:
2 Ultra Ball
1 Computer Search
4 Dark Patch
3 Pokedex
3 Ether
4 Pokemon Catcher
4 Energy Switch
Total: 21
Blastoise:
4 Ultra Ball
4 Rare Candy
4 Pokemon Catcher
4 Energy Retrieval
1 Computer Search
1 Tool Scrapper
1 Max Potion
1 Super Rod
Total: 20
Here is a recap of all of the decks I have built from last format and the number of Items they played:
Darkrai - 21 (for next format)
Blastoise - 20 (from last format)
Tornadus/Landorus - 22 (from last format)
Klinklang - 17
Quad Sigilyph - 26
Excadrill - 22
Hydreigon - 20
RayEels - 18
Ho-Oh - 22
Landorus/Mewtwo/Terrakion - 24
Garchomp/Landorus - 17
So on the low end, I have 17, which would be an average 2 cards in a 7 card hand, and 26 on the high end, which would be 3. When you compound this by the other factors of not always having a 7 card hand, playing down Items when you get them, and then it's clear to see why Ghetsis isn't very strong.
Uhh no offense but Im not sure what kind of Darkrai deck your playing since most of them I see also include the following and dont play Pokedex or Ether in any competitive built:
3-4 Ultra Ball
3-4 Level Ball
3-4 Rare Candy (w/ Hydregion)
1-2 Evotiles
3-4 Max Potion
1-2 Random Receiver
4-6 Various Hammers (Crushing and Enhanced)
I see most Blastoise decks averaging about 24 items as well. So basically, most meta decks your going to hit a hand of 3-4 cards on average (except maybe against Rayquaza, which if your playing something like Lando you could care less what happens).
What is really bad about Ghetsis is that if you DONT have Juniper in hand or N or some draw supporter, you lose. I can see the situations where it doesnt do anything to you, but how often that happens is less than how often you have Juniper or N. You can only play up to 4 Juniper and 4 N, which gives you a 2/15 chance of coming back from Ghetsis. So basically your weighing 50% odds of hitting at least 1 item (and probably more at once), verses the 13% chance of recovering from a Ghetsis.
And lets not forget that even if you play a Juniper or N, you can just get hit by another Ghetsis the following turn.
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However, Ghetsis still lets you see what your opponent has in his or her hand, which can be helpful when coming up with a strategy. Most of the time, seeing what your opponent has before he or she can play it is an excellent way to gauge what kind of deck you're up against, and can help figure out what you need to do to beat it. I used to play Weavile UD for that reason as well.
Personally I think this card is going to be to situational to be a staple. I can see it being devastating to any deck but the odds are are two low to happen consistently imo. it can really only hurt quad decks like sigilyph and to a lesser extent after darkrai variants use junk hunt and even then its not that bad as the darkrai player will still be able to reuse them in the long run.
Otaku
Active Member
Ghetsis is a Supporter; therefor when you use it, you are giving up a chance to use something more important, like N, Professor Juniper, or Skyla. By the time it comes out, we should also have access to Colress (while likely weak first turn of the game, even by the overall second turn it should at least function as Professor Oak's Research). The realistic draw yield of Ghetsis is probably two cards.
Something to remember is that Ghetsis isn't discarding those Items, but shuffling them back into your deck. "Burning" Items just to deny me one more card drawn per Item? Sometimes it will be a fair deal, other times it will flat out benefit one player over the other... but it can go either way. Burn Computer Search, Crushing Hammer, Enhanced Hammer, and a Pokémon Catcher all in one turn? That can really hurt ltae game.
Even things that might seem "safe", aren't; tossing down Random Receiver since "Hey, Ghetsis doesn't hit Supporters!" or using up Ball Trainers since Pokémon aren't clearly not affected by Ghetsis ignores that N is still present and likely still a force. In that way, the two sort of compliment each other. If your opponent burns up their Items, they are denying themselves an important resource even if an N grants them a good sized hand. This it the reason one doesn't needlessly burn deck thinning cards right now.
Ghetsis is also odd in how it reacts with itself. If you're sending Items back in the deck... you've just increased the odds your opponent will draw into more Items later (if the game doesn't end before that). Again, this could benefit the player using Ghetsis; the fourth copy might slam into an opponent's hand that has five Items... because the previous three kept shuffling them in before it was a good time to use them... or your opponent may have become so well adjusted by then they know that it is indeed good to "burn" some of those Items to avoid this scenario... or your opponent just pulls off a stunning, game reversing combo as they drop Professor Juniper and pull a killer seven Item hand, all useful at the moment.
The card is not broken because of how this format works; either players will reduce Item counts and the card will be strategic disruption... or it will punish the players who are relying on high Item counts, and frankly begging for such measures. In the latter case, if the game remains at its current pace, the times when Ghetsis scores less than three cards is going to hurt, because so often you would have drawn more or searched out something important.
This will become a very skill intensive card, unless players somehow manage to make the most crude decks dominate. That being said, it may not be something to run in high amounts, but as I also expect with Colress, one or two will become staples but more will be viewed as overkill. I think we are going to go back to players running a variety of Supporters; one or two near max counts of the more reliable with singles and doubles of the more specialized... since few are truly specialized but just seem that way compared to how generally useful key Supporters are.
Something to remember is that Ghetsis isn't discarding those Items, but shuffling them back into your deck. "Burning" Items just to deny me one more card drawn per Item? Sometimes it will be a fair deal, other times it will flat out benefit one player over the other... but it can go either way. Burn Computer Search, Crushing Hammer, Enhanced Hammer, and a Pokémon Catcher all in one turn? That can really hurt ltae game.
Even things that might seem "safe", aren't; tossing down Random Receiver since "Hey, Ghetsis doesn't hit Supporters!" or using up Ball Trainers since Pokémon aren't clearly not affected by Ghetsis ignores that N is still present and likely still a force. In that way, the two sort of compliment each other. If your opponent burns up their Items, they are denying themselves an important resource even if an N grants them a good sized hand. This it the reason one doesn't needlessly burn deck thinning cards right now.
Ghetsis is also odd in how it reacts with itself. If you're sending Items back in the deck... you've just increased the odds your opponent will draw into more Items later (if the game doesn't end before that). Again, this could benefit the player using Ghetsis; the fourth copy might slam into an opponent's hand that has five Items... because the previous three kept shuffling them in before it was a good time to use them... or your opponent may have become so well adjusted by then they know that it is indeed good to "burn" some of those Items to avoid this scenario... or your opponent just pulls off a stunning, game reversing combo as they drop Professor Juniper and pull a killer seven Item hand, all useful at the moment.
The card is not broken because of how this format works; either players will reduce Item counts and the card will be strategic disruption... or it will punish the players who are relying on high Item counts, and frankly begging for such measures. In the latter case, if the game remains at its current pace, the times when Ghetsis scores less than three cards is going to hurt, because so often you would have drawn more or searched out something important.
This will become a very skill intensive card, unless players somehow manage to make the most crude decks dominate. That being said, it may not be something to run in high amounts, but as I also expect with Colress, one or two will become staples but more will be viewed as overkill. I think we are going to go back to players running a variety of Supporters; one or two near max counts of the more reliable with singles and doubles of the more specialized... since few are truly specialized but just seem that way compared to how generally useful key Supporters are.
I agree that as the game progresses Ghetsis isn't broken; when Ghetsis IS broken is when someone plays it on the first turn going first. They'll net probably 3-5 cards AND totally ruin their opponent's hand, and that's a bit silly I think.
Charranitar
Member
I don't think turn one Ghetsis is broken in the slightest. For example, in my Blastoise deck, Ultra Ball is the only Item card I ever really want to use turn one. (Maybe Energy Retrieval to pull off tricks with Ultra Ball, or Super Rod to put back in something I discarded), but those are rare circumstances.
So unless my opponent puts an Ultra Ball back into my deck, everything else (My Energy Retrieval, Rare Candy, Dowsing Machine) just helps conserve my resources for more opportune times.
I think the only decks hurt by a turn one Ghetsis too much would be donk decks reliant on early game Items like Catcher, PlusPower, and Computer Search. But I would hardly say those decks are crippled by it, unless their hand is all items, at which point they were probably already crippled.
Ghetsis is just a low impact card disruption wise, and very bad for your own deck's consistency.
So unless my opponent puts an Ultra Ball back into my deck, everything else (My Energy Retrieval, Rare Candy, Dowsing Machine) just helps conserve my resources for more opportune times.
I think the only decks hurt by a turn one Ghetsis too much would be donk decks reliant on early game Items like Catcher, PlusPower, and Computer Search. But I would hardly say those decks are crippled by it, unless their hand is all items, at which point they were probably already crippled.
Ghetsis is just a low impact card disruption wise, and very bad for your own deck's consistency.
Otaku
Active Member
I think the direct disruption Ghetsis inflicts is low, but the effective disruption is much higher; this is where the skill and psychological angle of Pokémon come into play. It creates an opportunity for your opponent to make bad plays; "Is this the time when it is better to allow Items to be shuffled away and my opponent to get some draw from Ghetsis, or is this the time to burn my Items for minimal return so my opponent just gets to see my hand?"
Overall, I think the card is low disruption, low draw... but it is variable. If you are running heavy Ghetsis, you realistically might be able to force your opponent into a position of "burn your Items or watch me constantly hit harder and draw more with Ghetsis."
Overall, I think the card is low disruption, low draw... but it is variable. If you are running heavy Ghetsis, you realistically might be able to force your opponent into a position of "burn your Items or watch me constantly hit harder and draw more with Ghetsis."
Phazon Elite
New Member
Isn't mindlessly burning items to avoid ghetsis the same as just getting hit with one? You're really only preventing your opponent from drawing cards, which they could probably do anyway.
I'd burn trainers that I just don't need anymore, but not ones that I might require later in the game.
I'd burn trainers that I just don't need anymore, but not ones that I might require later in the game.
Otaku
Active Member
Phazon Elite: Kind of my point. Like so many things in life, let alone games, it isn't always the effect so much as the fear of the effect and precautions that follow suit that can give a card value.
I just added that besides forcing your opponent to adjust (which to a degree, you can achieve by bluffing - you may not even run Ghetsis and receive the benefit), one way or another each one should prove more useful. You are always getting the heads up on what is in your opponent's hand, so you'll know if you just have to worry about a top-decked N or Ghetsis yourself, or if there is no Supporter if you have to worry just about top decks.
By late game, that might be the only benefit... but it is late game, when that is perhaps even more important and it only comes about because your opponent is now in an Item drought. The the opposite is also likely true; any late game draw power, if your opponent hasn't been able to burn excess Items, means they are getting a handful of Items. This is often (but not always) preferable to them carefully using them for maximum impact over the whole game, and if they still aren't able to use them or use them well... your last Ghetsis should be a good source of draw power!
I just added that besides forcing your opponent to adjust (which to a degree, you can achieve by bluffing - you may not even run Ghetsis and receive the benefit), one way or another each one should prove more useful. You are always getting the heads up on what is in your opponent's hand, so you'll know if you just have to worry about a top-decked N or Ghetsis yourself, or if there is no Supporter if you have to worry just about top decks.
By late game, that might be the only benefit... but it is late game, when that is perhaps even more important and it only comes about because your opponent is now in an Item drought. The the opposite is also likely true; any late game draw power, if your opponent hasn't been able to burn excess Items, means they are getting a handful of Items. This is often (but not always) preferable to them carefully using them for maximum impact over the whole game, and if they still aren't able to use them or use them well... your last Ghetsis should be a good source of draw power!
Item Count for my Darkrai: 32
4 Dark Patch
4 Energy Switch
1 Random Reciever
2 Tool Scrapper
1 Revive
3 Pluspower
1 Energy Retrieval
2 Evioite
1 Max Potion
1 Dark Claw
4 Pokemon Catcher
4 Crushing Hammer
3 Enhanced Hammer
1 Computer Search