Gyarados: The Atrocious Pokémon
- Thread starter Pajamas
- Start date
P), but you put it active after your gyarados dies, so you have free retreat and get another one up. just a thought.
Deoxys Cool Form
New Member
That is a situation where Poketurns are better. 90, then KO with Crobat G's next turn.
One thing about your gengar matchup, thankfully, they are very easy to donk with sabyle. It only takes a basic dark to ko a gastly.
Really good list, solid article. I think Claydol is unnecessary though, as you'll have a huge hand later game and sabyle helps you set up. Chatot is there for spiritomb lock/defean lock right?
Matchup section is very bland though. I would have liked to see a lot MORE.
Kingdra?
Landshark?
Shuppet?
Palkia lock?
Beedrill
Gardy Gallade?
Glistomb?
Really good list, solid article. I think Claydol is unnecessary though, as you'll have a huge hand later game and sabyle helps you set up. Chatot is there for spiritomb lock/defean lock right?
Matchup section is very bland though. I would have liked to see a lot MORE.
Kingdra?
Landshark?
Shuppet?
Palkia lock?
Beedrill
Gardy Gallade?
Glistomb?
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Vhind
New Member
Great article! However, you forgot to mention using Solrock and Lunatone as an alternative engine to Claydol. It's all a matter of play-style, but why not discuss the pros and cons of each option?
Also, maxing out Cyclone Energy helps a lot of match-ups become more favorable, or at least it does in my meta.
Also, maxing out Cyclone Energy helps a lot of match-ups become more favorable, or at least it does in my meta.
Pajamas
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
That could improve the matchup against straight Gengar SF (though it's still not even), but I don't see anyone making top tables with that deck any more. Even with 4 Bat, 4 Turn, and 4 SSU, I think it's incredibly difficult to gun down a Gengar AR.
As it says in the article, please feel free to make suggestions about other matchups if you have more experience with them than I do. I covered the most popular decks in Masters, and I believe it's actually harmful for me to speculate about how other matchups look on paper.
That sounds like a fun idea for league, but my goal was to focus on a deck that wins tournaments. Maybe you could explain how it works?
Which matchups are those?
kd0220437
Active Member
Where are you getting 40 from Machamp with Takeout? You do realize that Gyrados is resistant to Fighting right? That is why it is so favorable. It is at worst 60-40 in favor of Gyrados.
Vhind
New Member
Please, do not be so condescending. Solrock and Lunatone are just as competitive as Claydol, and my particular list has made Top Cut every tournament it has been played. Just because one cannot use the combo effectively, that does not make it any less viable.
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Spheal says
New Member
OOooOOooh, Gary Mc'Dos. It's cool to see him finally become viable after all of these years. The man who had enough faith in this rogue to bring it to World's is a beast.
Pajamas
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
No condescension intended whatsoever. My interest was in describing cards and combos that are commonly used in Gyarados decks that win tournaments around the world. I don't believe LunaSol falls into that category. If you think we're all missing something, feel free to explain what the combo is and why it works well in this deck. That way you're contributing to the discussion.
Well written article Joey, and definitely one of the best I've seen on the main page for a long time.
A few interesting opinions here. Gyarados is favorable against Flychamp, and GG, both with a significant enough margin that those are two of my favorite matchups.
Gengar is, in fact, rather bad for you. Definitely your worst matchup, especially with how the current Gengar lists are being handled. The matchup isn't an autoloss, and I've seen the games always be somewhat close to the point that a notable start difference can certainly sway the matchup. I've tried coming up with ways to make the matchup better, but Gyarados seems somewhat linear in it's gameplan, and that game plan is inherently weak to Gengar, so not sure what to do there.
Your SP games are almost always a coin flip. I feel that Dialga Garchomp is EXTREMELY close. Without Regice AND comebee its a landslide victory for Dialga, but with both it becomes a down to the last prize slugfest almost every time. The number of Sprays that Dialga run is huge...if they can keep Regi-moving its REALLY bad for you. If they run 0-1 sprays, I feel it favors Gyarados. If they run 2...its very close. If they run 3-4, it definitely favors Dialga.
I've found with Gyarados that it really depends on whether or not Gyarados has to give up too many prizes before it starts getting a Gyarados online. If it is the aggressor and gets up a few prizes, almost any matchup ( even Gengar ) is favorable, but if it falls behind its MEH.
Also...Plus Power vs PokeTurn. I personally like a mix of the two. Strictly speaking, I feel Plus Power is better. It can't be Spray'd. Its not 100% better because if they DO retreat a near dead Pokemon, Crobats can get to it. I like a 2/2 split for psychological reasons. This is a big thing I learned playing Magic lately, where they diversify their spells. By having more variety in spells that accomplish " generally " the same purpose ( say, for magic, killing a creature ) your opponent has a much harder time playing around ALL of them, and they also don't know the count for each you have. If I'm playing vs Gyarados, and they have 4 plus powers discarded, I safely assume they damage cap. If I see 2 PokeTurn and 2 Plus Power, I expect another 2 Plus Power and 2 Poketurn, or at least 2 more of one or the other. It makes it harder to play around your options if you give them harder to decipher information, so "mixing" otherwise identical cards is superior.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
Ok I'll be the condescending one: Solrock and Lunatone are in no way close to as tournament worthy as Claydol. I'm not going to be politically correct and spout untrue information. From a game play standpoint, they are simply not in the same league as Claydol. You will not convince me otherwise.
A few interesting opinions here. Gyarados is favorable against Flychamp, and GG, both with a significant enough margin that those are two of my favorite matchups.
Gengar is, in fact, rather bad for you. Definitely your worst matchup, especially with how the current Gengar lists are being handled. The matchup isn't an autoloss, and I've seen the games always be somewhat close to the point that a notable start difference can certainly sway the matchup. I've tried coming up with ways to make the matchup better, but Gyarados seems somewhat linear in it's gameplan, and that game plan is inherently weak to Gengar, so not sure what to do there.
Your SP games are almost always a coin flip. I feel that Dialga Garchomp is EXTREMELY close. Without Regice AND comebee its a landslide victory for Dialga, but with both it becomes a down to the last prize slugfest almost every time. The number of Sprays that Dialga run is huge...if they can keep Regi-moving its REALLY bad for you. If they run 0-1 sprays, I feel it favors Gyarados. If they run 2...its very close. If they run 3-4, it definitely favors Dialga.
I've found with Gyarados that it really depends on whether or not Gyarados has to give up too many prizes before it starts getting a Gyarados online. If it is the aggressor and gets up a few prizes, almost any matchup ( even Gengar ) is favorable, but if it falls behind its MEH.
Also...Plus Power vs PokeTurn. I personally like a mix of the two. Strictly speaking, I feel Plus Power is better. It can't be Spray'd. Its not 100% better because if they DO retreat a near dead Pokemon, Crobats can get to it. I like a 2/2 split for psychological reasons. This is a big thing I learned playing Magic lately, where they diversify their spells. By having more variety in spells that accomplish " generally " the same purpose ( say, for magic, killing a creature ) your opponent has a much harder time playing around ALL of them, and they also don't know the count for each you have. If I'm playing vs Gyarados, and they have 4 plus powers discarded, I safely assume they damage cap. If I see 2 PokeTurn and 2 Plus Power, I expect another 2 Plus Power and 2 Poketurn, or at least 2 more of one or the other. It makes it harder to play around your options if you give them harder to decipher information, so "mixing" otherwise identical cards is superior.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
Ok I'll be the condescending one: Solrock and Lunatone are in no way close to as tournament worthy as Claydol. I'm not going to be politically correct and spout untrue information. From a game play standpoint, they are simply not in the same league as Claydol. You will not convince me otherwise.
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rocketprof1287
New Member
this is a solid list, with a very nice way of showing match ups. i like the ideas of combee, and suicune, definitely something i will try in my deck. imo crobat is reliable enought to not need pluspowers, but i really like the idea of using both... this deck has so much room to grown and to be interpreted that i'm glad to see a written article on it. i don't have a link but i think that J-Wittz did a simply wonderful video regarding this deck too and anyone interested in running Gyarados should check it out!!
superwolfs
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
im considering running this after HGSS would great blissy be a good tech for the deck?
Blissey isn't that good in this deck, IMO. Its far better in Kingdra, where you can heal multiple Kingdras at once. Due to the Magikarp requirements in the discard, your only healing one Atrocious Pokemon at a time, so your getting very little mileage out of running an extra stage one line.
gashmoigidy
New Member
I'm 5-2 vs. Mother Gengar with gyarados this season (3-1 at BR's, 2-1 at cities). My strategy was the 90 +bats kill. If they play nidoqueen you can just e-belt an uxie. I actually didn't play uxies in my latest list, so i played the matchup the reckless way. I crobat'ed and went straight into the fanting spell. There's a 50-50 chance they take a prize, and you're coming back a lot faster than they are.
"Mother Gengar" isn't the Gengar build that is both winning, and the major issue. The builds focusing around Curse Gengar, and hiding behind Spiritombs or Fainting Spell Gengars, on the other hand, are. They can use Spiritomb much in the same way Dialga decks Deafen you. Also, 90 vs a Queen doesn't work when they Expert Belt themselves, or Lvl Up to 140. Expert Belt on Gengar hits you for 80, and hides behind a Spiritomb or two. Even with cards like Combee, you can't really keep up. Toss in the fact that Gyarados generally isn't the fastest of decks, in terms of attacking ( usually its stuck with Sableye for a few turns. Gengar generally gets swinging first. Or at least gets the first relevent hit off )
If you play vs a Gengar deck using none of the new tools the Arceus set gave it, then it may be a much closer, if not favorable matchup, but if the Gengar decks have evolved as most of the best ones have, it doesn't stay quite as close.
If you play vs a Gengar deck using none of the new tools the Arceus set gave it, then it may be a much closer, if not favorable matchup, but if the Gengar decks have evolved as most of the best ones have, it doesn't stay quite as close.
smacktack15
New Member
What if the Gyarados plays a 1-1 or 2-1 Dialga G Lv.X???
billbilski
New Member
Nice article. A very small point, but Ape lvx replacing blaze lvx DOES make a huge difference. I played this matchup at cities - his power lets you gust up a basic for a ko every turn. Assuming you have the lead(I always do with SP), trading ko's is perfect.....no need to expose luxray for every prize you take.....