Guys, its october and I still cannot find any non LC tournaments within 250 MILES (not even kilometres, I'm from canada eh), of me, thanks pokemon! I'll definately be getting to 500 with one league challenge every 6 weeks, oh and by the way, my league isn't even running the league challenge, so I would have to plan a trip 2 hours out of town to the nearest league (NOT happening) where are the premier events in canada? And just how on earth am I supposed to get to 500 points? Seriously...
Has Pokemon Organized play jumped the Sharpedo?
- Thread starter JandPDS
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vaporeon
Moderator
I dont like the fee. I was hoping to play in Regionals but money is hard for me to come by. I'm a full time student at collage and recently took on a extra bill because a phone was needed. I like the event being free because I can do one of the things I love without wasting money because I know I wont win anyway. All I use is my time. Pokemon had become really expensive and I dont like it. Booster packs are almost 5 bucks each, with poor card designs, cost of the OP cards go up to almost 50 or 60 bucks each and travel cost such as gas, because thats still a thing and its still going up. For those who travel to events, they have the cost of hotels and food and not only that, the cost of living goes up each year.
For us to accept this without challenge when its always been free is just wrong. Also to my knowledge, the younger age groups also get prize increases. So this tells me Masters are paying for the prizes of each age group and thats a heavy burden considering we wont be giving packs to cover our 20 buck and Yugioh does this. At the very least I can sell the packs for my money back. Its not like the prizes will cost them anything more.
I dont like this cash grab they are doing. First its with Pokemon bank and now with competitive play. The line needs to be drawn somewhere or they will continue to do this.
For us to accept this without challenge when its always been free is just wrong. Also to my knowledge, the younger age groups also get prize increases. So this tells me Masters are paying for the prizes of each age group and thats a heavy burden considering we wont be giving packs to cover our 20 buck and Yugioh does this. At the very least I can sell the packs for my money back. Its not like the prizes will cost them anything more.
I dont like this cash grab they are doing. First its with Pokemon bank and now with competitive play. The line needs to be drawn somewhere or they will continue to do this.
I don't see why you guys are mad about this, it's absolutely true. People will take a step back and really evaluate, is this worth it? and I think most in this situation will realize, "Hey, maybe paying 200$ every month to stay at the top of the competitive game isn't worth it, maybe paying (in my situation) about 5k a year for travel to all minor and major events (which you now need if you want to get to worlds)maybe it's taking up too much of my money, too much time, maybe buying a 50$ peice of card board that will be worthless in a year (or shorter if they release a bunch of counters, just like they did right before they made plasma affordable[another concern, if they tin your ex, or errata it to nerf it like catcher enjoy more plummiting values]) maybe I should just play A 40$ videogame that will always be playable and comes out every couple years as opposed to buying a couple boxes every three months" Because that's exactly where I am at right now. I would say this is a problem with all card games. But I don't think it is, or has to be, removing rarities, removing filler, and maybe even not releasing new sets every three months with one or two chase cards and 99% filler would help all of my complaints about the fact that your investment in these cards will be worthless in a year or two, unless you sell them at the perfect time. If a card like deoxys EX was 5$ when it came out nobody would complain if the price goes down a bit when they release a tin. I don't feel like the model they currently use encourages sustained play, theres only so many times a card you just paid a bunch of money for can become worthless before you start getting put off at the thought of spending a lot of money on either a box or singles to get those good cards, and if you don't have those cards, well you aren't competitive so why even play?
I'm not sure what pokemon can do about there being no tournaments near me and air-fare in canada being ridiculous, but yugioh and magic players have large tournaments in my city all the time. Nobody plays pokemon, and that all starts with these problems up here ^
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losjackal
Technical Administrator
The next league season hasn't started yet...not until later in October. You can probably expect LC's to show up scheduled in November. Why isn't your league going to run a League Challenge?
I actually found that I was exhausted after playing 5 rounds on D1 at the KO. I think I ended up playing 13 games on D1, which normally wouldn't be a problem if I'm just playing with friends, but in a competitive setting they get exhausting after a while.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
Thats $20 extra on top of the $270 you're spending every 3 months for boxes, on top of the $1-5k you rack up in travel expense, on top of the thousand or so you spend annually to buy high priced singles, on top of what's spent on sleeves, binders, boxes, and other supplies. And then you realize that $20 is really $80, for each event, when your kids are Masters and your wife plays too.
four years ago my total annual budget for Pokemon was $2500 for a family of four. Hella lot o money for a silly card game, but it was manageable and still competitive. Today, that same budget doesn't even cover one player if they hope to have a chance at being competitive. That's ridiculous, and the $20 pittance of an entry fee will be that straw to break the camel's back for a good chunk of the player base. There are many ways to drive Masters players away. WotC found one way. Mark my words, Nintendo has found another.
StormFront
New Member
Its ludicrous people on here are complaining about it. In Europe we've been paying entry fees for years aside from nationals. Considering the amount of money already invested into building a competitive deck, and the 1-2 hour drive many make just to get there. An event charging you $20 is not going to be the difference from attending or not attending. Aside, there will be increased prize support as a result of it.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
In Europe you guys are paid considerably more, have free healthcare, etc. That's apples and oranges. $20 in America is a higher proportion of a total usable family budget than it is where you live. No offense.
Not long ago, there were scholarship prizes from states on (or was it regionals where that started, don't remember exactly) as well as travel awards and trinkets and stuff. The tournaments were FREE then, even with far fewer spending their hard earned on Pokemon. Is the prize support more than that? Or is this another Macy's kind of deal where they mark the price up 300% and then give you a 20% off sale to make you feel like they're saving you money?
Not long ago, there were scholarship prizes from states on (or was it regionals where that started, don't remember exactly) as well as travel awards and trinkets and stuff. The tournaments were FREE then, even with far fewer spending their hard earned on Pokemon. Is the prize support more than that? Or is this another Macy's kind of deal where they mark the price up 300% and then give you a 20% off sale to make you feel like they're saving you money?
losjackal
Technical Administrator
This is just marketing and operations. In the olden days, yes there were more attractive prizes on the line to continue to lure players. But now those same States-on events are getting too large to hold in the typical local venues, and in a timeframe still friendly for Juniors and Seniors. Is it because the Juniors and Seniors are overrunning the place? No, it's the Masters. So barriers are being erected to keep the numbers down (reduction of prizes, Play! Point requirement at Nationals, and now admission). The POP old model and budget is unwilling or unable to subsidize the growth of the division. Even the tournament structure has changed (only playoff Top 8, versus whatever cut was deemed appropriate).
You're not wrong that this will cause individuals to re-evaluate if it is worth it. (33rd place through 64th place gets 9 booster packs as prize.) Maybe this gives the PTOs the opportunity to better market their individual events and convince them it is worth their while. (The Indiana PTO, where I'm headed, has added 4 booster packs as prizes for 65th through 128th place.)
(wow that is a lot of parentheses)
You're not wrong that this will cause individuals to re-evaluate if it is worth it. (33rd place through 64th place gets 9 booster packs as prize.) Maybe this gives the PTOs the opportunity to better market their individual events and convince them it is worth their while. (The Indiana PTO, where I'm headed, has added 4 booster packs as prizes for 65th through 128th place.)
(wow that is a lot of parentheses)
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
I realize its marketing and operation. With tenfold the sales of six years ago, and near 100 fold from where it was been they took over in 2003, the revenue brought in from additional players and collectors alike more than compensate for larger venue costs while maintaining their original prize support structure. However, they're going in the opposite direction.
By wanting to lessen the burden of so many Masters, however, they're cutting their nose off to spite their face. The Masters are the money earners and ultimately who controls a family's finances. By charging for Masters and keeping the other divisions free, it's obvious what their intentions are. In practice, there aren't too many parents willing to sit for 12 hours while their kid plays a card game and the organizers and support staff are spread too thin for all day babysitting duties.
As a result, the Masters will shrink, but Juniors and Seniors will as well. Where the parents go (or don't as the case may be), the kids will follow. You gotta be careful what you wish for, because you just may get it!
And about those packs you win. Other than on the odd occasion where a new set has just been released, how often do you need any of the cards from that particular set? Answer is, none. You already have them or you wouldn't have been competitive enough to win them in the first place...
By wanting to lessen the burden of so many Masters, however, they're cutting their nose off to spite their face. The Masters are the money earners and ultimately who controls a family's finances. By charging for Masters and keeping the other divisions free, it's obvious what their intentions are. In practice, there aren't too many parents willing to sit for 12 hours while their kid plays a card game and the organizers and support staff are spread too thin for all day babysitting duties.
As a result, the Masters will shrink, but Juniors and Seniors will as well. Where the parents go (or don't as the case may be), the kids will follow. You gotta be careful what you wish for, because you just may get it!
And about those packs you win. Other than on the odd occasion where a new set has just been released, how often do you need any of the cards from that particular set? Answer is, none. You already have them or you wouldn't have been competitive enough to win them in the first place...
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FirestormXVI
Member
Very interested to hear what percentage $20 is of your annual family income.
rileysill32
New Member
Me too, that is a terrible statistic and assumption. Unless he links to some study that European households on average annually take in more income after taxes then it's just completely made up off the top of his head. Because in Europe and other places yeah you do get free healthcare, but when you go into the workforce your taxes are considerably higher than in the US. Socialism at it's finest.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
First and foremost, I'm not going to discuss my personal finances on the internet. I'm sure at some point someone has explained that it's rude to ask people what they make as its noyb. However, I will base it on a national average income based on end 2011 numbers (2012 numbers aren't readily available and 2013 can't even start to be calculated until January) of $51,413 gross household income (median household income is less than $50k and encompasses 82% of all Americans).
You don't pay $20 and get to play for the year. Most families is more like $40-100 per event. So say an average of $70. For 8 events that's $560, or a little over 1% of gross household income. Add the $3,500 in annual travel expenses, the $1080 in pack costs, the $1,000 in singles costs, and the $200 give or take in supplies (dice, sleeves, boxes, etc.) for a grand total of $6,340 (which doesn't include traveling to worlds if you're good/lucky enough to go).
Now, from that $51,413 you gotta take 15% in taxes (income, real estate, local, state, sales, obamacare, etc.). So the usable income from that would be $43,701. So, now were at near 1.25% of annual net income just for tournament entry fees, or 14.5% for total Pokemon costs! Still don't think that's too much? Well, from that $43,701 other things have to be paid first.
Mortgage/rent $12,000
Electric costs $2,000
Insurance costs $2,700
Vehicle finance $7,800
Internet costs $600
Savings/retirement $3,000
Phone costs $1,800
Other utilities $720
Food $4,800
Clothing $800
So, $36,220 comes out first leaving a disposable income of $7,481. $560 in tournament fees are 7.5% of that. Total Pokemon costs to hope to be competitive come to 84.75% of that. That leaves $1,141 in annual, $95 monthly, disposable income post Pokemon expenses, which isn't even enough to buy the gas to get to work and school not to mention the unexpected a like new tires ($400+), your A/C goes out ($2,500), medical expenses (the sky is the limit here), etc.
Taking all that into consideration, that $560 is huge. If Pokemon is the ONLY thing you do for entertainment, it can be workable by selling your higher end extras to put some money back into the kitty without the tournament entry fees. With those fees, it breaks the budget.
You don't pay $20 and get to play for the year. Most families is more like $40-100 per event. So say an average of $70. For 8 events that's $560, or a little over 1% of gross household income. Add the $3,500 in annual travel expenses, the $1080 in pack costs, the $1,000 in singles costs, and the $200 give or take in supplies (dice, sleeves, boxes, etc.) for a grand total of $6,340 (which doesn't include traveling to worlds if you're good/lucky enough to go).
Now, from that $51,413 you gotta take 15% in taxes (income, real estate, local, state, sales, obamacare, etc.). So the usable income from that would be $43,701. So, now were at near 1.25% of annual net income just for tournament entry fees, or 14.5% for total Pokemon costs! Still don't think that's too much? Well, from that $43,701 other things have to be paid first.
Mortgage/rent $12,000
Electric costs $2,000
Insurance costs $2,700
Vehicle finance $7,800
Internet costs $600
Savings/retirement $3,000
Phone costs $1,800
Other utilities $720
Food $4,800
Clothing $800
So, $36,220 comes out first leaving a disposable income of $7,481. $560 in tournament fees are 7.5% of that. Total Pokemon costs to hope to be competitive come to 84.75% of that. That leaves $1,141 in annual, $95 monthly, disposable income post Pokemon expenses, which isn't even enough to buy the gas to get to work and school not to mention the unexpected a like new tires ($400+), your A/C goes out ($2,500), medical expenses (the sky is the limit here), etc.
Taking all that into consideration, that $560 is huge. If Pokemon is the ONLY thing you do for entertainment, it can be workable by selling your higher end extras to put some money back into the kitty without the tournament entry fees. With those fees, it breaks the budget.
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rileysill32
New Member
All I can say is, if you have that many kids in your family that is costs $40-100 an event and you are only making less than $51k for the entire household.
You need to reevaluate your decision and start taking personal responsibilities into priority. $51k is nothing for an entire household. If that is all you can bring home and you're complaining about the prices, find something else to do. I'm tired of people complaining. There are other forms of entertainment. Live by your means and make better and more responsible decisions.
You need to reevaluate your decision and start taking personal responsibilities into priority. $51k is nothing for an entire household. If that is all you can bring home and you're complaining about the prices, find something else to do. I'm tired of people complaining. There are other forms of entertainment. Live by your means and make better and more responsible decisions.
Swordfish1989
New Member
I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but let me just say this - when my father had cancer, his treatment would've bankrupted our family had we not had insurance, and even then, the deductible on his insurance was so high that we had a lot of out of pocket expenses we are STILL paying 2 years later. He now pays a fortune for his and my mom's insurance, still with a high deductible, because a disastrous illness could take EVERYTHING from us. Here's the 'fun' part, when he initially went in for surgery, the insurance company denied him, saying it wasn't life threatening enough. A positive cancer diagnosis. Right. Take that in for a minute. When the majority of the country is 1 cancer diagnosis away from bankruptcy, I think we have a problem. I've never heard that happen to any family in Europe...
Anyways, back on topic... stop focusing on the actual $20. By doing that, you're committing a huge logical fallacy; the line drawing fallacy. When your hair is growing, it's growing slowly so it's hard to tell from one day to the other when hair goes from being short to being long, so it's hard to draw the line of where hair makes that transition. But just because it's hard to determine WHERE the line is, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's the same thing with the $20. Charging for tournaments is stretching the budget, and it's where a lot of people draw the line between acceptable and expensive. Just because you don't agree with where the line is, doesn't mean it's not there.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
I'm glad you have it as good as you do. 82% of the people in America don't and have household incomes of less than $51k. And, that's 2.5 kids with mom and dad both masters, with 1.5 kids also in masters. Which is also a national average.
Point is, I have reevaluated my decision and many other families will have to as well. These decisions Pokemon has made will take the game, and the profit in it, back to 2003 levels. What I'm saying is that Nintendo is now effectually doing the same thing to Pokemon that WotC did that made Nintendo take over in the first place. I'm not whining about costs. I'm illustrating how the decisions being made by the brass in Seattle (or whomever is making these calls) is counter intuitive and will kill the demand they've strived to reinstitute into Pokemon since 2003 because the vast majority of those who would otherwise enjoy the game just can't afford to any more. Nothing more, nothing less.
My local league has no TO, literally we're 4 people that meet a week, and this is in a city of 300,000, so I don't think it's possible (you need a minimum of 8 to run the LC right?) even if we had one. I Guess it's not totally pokemon's fault that nobody plays around here, but they certainly aren't helping with these recent rule changes, and it's not like people just aren't interested in card games around here, because tons of people are, I know the season hasn't begun yet but how can I plan to attend these events with no information on what weekend they are? Just book the last half of october and a couple weeks of november off? That's not even possible at my workplace.
Otaku
Active Member
Referring to socialized medicine as "free" is either very inaccurate. Without debating whether it is a good or bad thing, putting the state in charge of healthcare in no way makes it free. Either the state is taking money from people to pay the bills, or they are forcefully taking away people's resources (be they physical supplies or the time of the medical staff) to provide health care. My understanding is that it is usually a combination of both.
Then you aren't listening. While many will claim they are exceptions, there are indeed plenty of horror stories about denial of care in Europe. If you really can't find them with a simple Google search, PM me and I'll see if I have any handy.
Personally I believe that if TPCi wants to charge an entry fee, they can go right ahead. I don't have to like it. XD Organized play provides an increased incentive to play, which is important for a product like this where the demand for it largely needs to be created. Odds are that there is enough demand without it to sustain the endeavor, though only with minimal support (e.g. pull a Digimon), but if the-powers-that-be want the Pokémon TCG to be as big as it can be, they'll need to make sure players both believe they are getting their money's worth and actually have disposable income to spend on it.
I believe the backlash is because right now from people who don't believe they are getting their money's worth from the game anymore, or who already were struggling to afford the game.
Then you aren't listening. While many will claim they are exceptions, there are indeed plenty of horror stories about denial of care in Europe. If you really can't find them with a simple Google search, PM me and I'll see if I have any handy.
Personally I believe that if TPCi wants to charge an entry fee, they can go right ahead. I don't have to like it. XD Organized play provides an increased incentive to play, which is important for a product like this where the demand for it largely needs to be created. Odds are that there is enough demand without it to sustain the endeavor, though only with minimal support (e.g. pull a Digimon), but if the-powers-that-be want the Pokémon TCG to be as big as it can be, they'll need to make sure players both believe they are getting their money's worth and actually have disposable income to spend on it.
I believe the backlash is because right now from people who don't believe they are getting their money's worth from the game anymore, or who already were struggling to afford the game.
TheRolesWePlay
New Member
Let me start by saying, I get it. Handling a budget is no easy feat, especially right now with all the rising costs and job complications and general economic shenanigans. But that does apply around the board, and it's no secret P!P doesn't have the most glorious budget themselves, and they've probably been gnawing the bullet for a while.
However I will point out that your, and I assume other people's approaches to the game is a little unnecessary. I myself have been playing the game since late 04, becoming competitive in 06. I've been able to maintain playing all these years on a $10 allowance and some gift money here and there, while taking also putting my money towards other purchases. I don't buy a box every set, in fact I do so maybe once a year as somebodies gift for Christmas or the like (something that I haven't had the pleasure of since NXD). Sure I can't maintain a deck like TDK, but I've managed to make a number of decks that have done moderately to really well over my tenure.
What I'm trying to say is that it's possible to play the game without sinking an excessive amount into it. In addition, the $20 entry fees are a little untruthful. Regionals is averaging at $20 sure, but chances are smaller tournaments such as Cities won't have as large an entry fee, and if you have problems paying for your family, have them pay in with their own money (assuming they have an allowance)
You don't have to quit the game just because of costs, you could marginalize costs in a number of ways, car pool with other people, sleep over at a local friend's house if possible, go to fewer interstate tournaments.
I do hope you come to a conclusion that satisfies you, and it would be sad to see people leave over something like this, but as I said these aren't the best times for a lot of people.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
My local league has no TO, literally we're 4 people that meet a week, and this is in a city of 300,000, so I don't think it's possible (you need a minimum of 8 to run the LC right?) even if we had one. I Guess it's not totally pokemon's fault that nobody plays around here, but they certainly aren't helping with these recent rule changes, and it's not like people just aren't interested in card games around here, because tons of people are, I know the season hasn't begun yet but how can I plan to attend these events with no information on what weekend they are? Just book the last half of october and a couple weeks of november off? That's not even possible at my workplace.
Someone is the League Owner, right? I believe that person would be able to sanction a League Challenge. All the pieces aren't in place yet, but I believe that is the intention.
With people looking for Championship Points, as soon as they saw your league's Challenge appear on the tournament locator, I would think players would come out of the woodwork to compete.
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