How Late Is Too Late In Tournament Play?

[Squidwina]

ryanvergel is correct in saying that once a card is played, it necessarily changes the course of things. It changes the way you look at the cards on the table. It changes the way you think about your next move. And that new perspective may cause you to realize that you've made a mistake.

I can't tell you how many times I've played a card and once I see it on the table, I realize that I shouldn't have played it that way. And that goes triple for playing a card and then looking back at my hand and realizing that I should have done something else.

If someone doesn't take the time to fully consider the implications of their move before they make it, then that's their own mistake and they (or I) need to own it.

Which begs the question of when a move is considered "made." I think the "when the player takes his or her hand away" is a good rule of thumb.

As far as how strict I am about this--it just depends on the importance of a match.

I also don't think its as easy as just saying "if you make mistakes you're a worse player." This can be both an issue for people who enjoy playing really fast (for whatever reason, ie., their tendencies as a person, their wish to have as much of match as possible go by before time is called, etc) and for those who play slower/really slow. Its an issue for those who play slow because between the "fear" of being accused of stalling, having opponents tell you to hurry up, etc, it can and does become nervewracking using the max amount of time allotted to think out one's moves,

I think it IS as easy as just saying "if you make mistakes you're a worse player." Part of becoming a better player is learning to make fewer mistakes. And that includes adjusting your play style if that's what you have to do. If you're serious about doing better at tournaments, you'll do it.

And that's coming from experience, by the way. Mistakes are one of my biggest problems as a player and I've put in a lot of work learning to make fewer of them. It's tedious, but it's paid off in wins.

 

[xcfrisco]

I think it IS as easy as just saying "if you make mistakes you're a worse player." Part of becoming a better player is learning to make fewer mistakes. And that includes adjusting your play style if that's what you have to do. If you're serious about doing better at tournaments, you'll do it.

And that's coming from experience, by the way. Mistakes are one of my biggest problems as a player and I've put in a lot of work learning to make fewer of them. It's tedious, but it's paid off in wins.

You're asking for mistake free pokemon, which is largely not goverened in the official rulebooks afaik. If its not in the rules, its up to interpretation. Is someone putting an energy behind a pokemon (but lets say he doesnt declare it, he just does it) a mistake or someone trying to get a feel for the game? It seems like a lot of you guys in this thread are trying standardize a lot of issues that aren't standard (in accordance to rules) yet. I guess that's why we have judges.

In a perfect (pokemon) world, everyone would use up only 30 seconds for their turn, never ask for any takebacks or make "mistakes," etc. Me and charcharchar have already stated that some of our "mistakes" are largely infuenced by the other player at times. For example, its during my first three turns (the ones that probably take the longest for most people) and my opponent is constantly tell me to play faster. So I make a "mistake" of placing an energy card to continue the flow of the game so my opponent doesnt keep telling me to hurry up, whatever. This mistake would never have been made if opponent had let me "concentrate," go according to my flow, etc. Who's at fault?

I think most people would agree that it's me despite my opponent's large influence. Now lets take it a step further. During each of my first turns, my opponent tell me to hurry up and I make a mistake. Still my fault right? How about every turn this is happening. Is this against the rules? (It probably doesnt explicitly state in the rulebook that someone can't tell you to hurry up ever turn). Again, this is probably why we have judges.


More precise rules in regards to the mechanics of playing pokemon should be put in the place to clear up this and other similar issues. Some people think its ok to take stuff back and some people think its not ok. Who is right and who is wrong here?


PS. I find the following moves acceptable to take back for my opponent as long as they're not in conjunctions with any other move/ game action as defined by pokemon.

Retreating
Benching
Evolving
Attaching an Energy
Forgetting to delcare a one time use poke-power (This is my favorite)

I can understand how some people could use these tactics "maliciously" if they were universally allowed, although I find it ludicrous that people would do this (and they probably would). Thankfully, I play poker and have managed to put on a pretty good poker face whenever its my opponents turn, so it should be hard for my opponents to get a good read on me :thumb: sychic:sychic:

 

[ryanvergel]

You're asking for mistake free pokemon, which is largely not goverened in the official rulebooks afaik. If its not in the rules, its up to interpretation. Is someone putting an energy behind a pokemon (but lets say he doesnt declare it, he just does it) a mistake or someone trying to get a feel for the game? It seems like a lot of you guys in this thread are trying standardize a lot of issues that aren't standard (in accordance to rules) yet. I guess that's why we have judges.

In a perfect (pokemon) world, everyone would use up only 30 seconds for their turn, never ask for any takebacks or make "mistakes," etc. Me and charcharchar have already stated that some of our "mistakes" are largely infuenced by the other player at times. For example, its during my first three turns (the ones that probably take the longest for most people) and my opponent is constantly tell me to play faster. So I make a "mistake" of placing an energy card to continue the flow of the game so my opponent doesnt keep telling me to hurry up, whatever. This mistake would never have been made if opponent had let me "concentrate," go according to my flow, etc. Who's at fault?

You are at fault entirely. The second he says to go faster, unless you are taking too long, ignore it. If he says it again, call a judge and tell him to stop harassing you, or watch your steps, then keep playing. Simple as that.

I think most people would agree that it's me despite my opponent's large influence. Now lets take it a step further. During each of my first turns, my opponent tell me to hurry up and I make a mistake. Still my fault right? How about every turn this is happening. Is this against the rules? (It probably doesnt explicitly state in the rulebook that someone can't tell you to hurry up ever turn). Again, this is probably why we have judges.


More precise rules in regards to the mechanics of playing pokemon should be put in the place to clear up this and other similar issues. Some people think its ok to take stuff back and some people think its not ok. Who is right and who is wrong here?


PS. I find the following moves acceptable to take back for my opponent as long as they're not in conjunctions with any other move/ game action as defined by pokemon.

Retreating
Benching
Evolving
Attaching an Energy
Forgetting to delcare a one time use poke-power (This is my favorite)

I can understand how some people could use these tactics "maliciously" if they were universally allowed, although I find it ludicrous that people would do this (and they probably would). Thankfully, I play poker and have managed to put on a pretty good poker face whenever its my opponents turn, so it should be hard for my opponents to get a good read on me :thumb: sychic:sychic:

response in bold!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[toxictaipan]

The point is that it is sloppy play, regardless of any malice behind it. (And in fact, most invocations of the string bet rule in poker nowadays are not against pro players trying to exploit, but players that are simply being sloppy with their actions.)

Have you noticed that there is no issue with considering your action before putting it into play? There is no ambiguity in that. That is how the game is intended to be played. Why do people have such a hard time with this? Just play the game without the shenanigans and a judge will never call you on it.

The point isn't that it's sloppy play. A string bet in Poker is sloppy play, but that's totally different.


The point to this is "How late is to late to take something back in Pokemon?" The point is, what if I have that "OH WAIT!" moment in the middle of an energy attachment and still have my hand on the card? Should I be allowed to change the Pokemon I choose to attach to at that point? I think so.

In Poker, you don't have those "OH WAIT!" moments. Sloppy play is sloppy play. Bet what you want to bet and move on. Having a revelation in the middle of an energy attachment is totally different from that.

---------- Post added 06/11/2010 at 02:40 PM ----------

I had this kid pull this crap move on me: He placed an energy on something on his bench. Lifted his hand up, about 3 trainer cards later he moves the energy because 'i had my elbow on it'. I did not let him, but jeez...

That's just wrong. Once you make another action, you've made your move.

What we're talking about here, though, is if you clearly pause your move before you finalize it to contemplate on changing it.

 

[Chairman Kaga]

The point to this is "How late is to late to take something back in Pokemon?" The point is, what if I have that "OH WAIT!" moment in the middle of an energy attachment and still have my hand on the card? Should I be allowed to change the Pokemon I choose to attach to at that point? I think so.

And my point is, where is the line? If we allow a hand, should we then allow a finger? How about the clown that thought an elbow would work? We have reached the point where we are attempting to rationalize nuisance behavior.

When there is a wide gray area, the only way to disambiguate is to draw the line on the white side.

 

[Squidwina]

You're asking for mistake free pokemon, which is largely not goverened in the official rulebooks afaik.

Nope. You're free to make all the mistakes that you want. You're also free to lose as much as you want.

This mistake would never have been made if opponent had let me "concentrate," go according to my flow, etc.

Learning to not get flustered in the face of an annoying opponent is part of learning to avoid mistakes. And if the opponent won't stop bugging you after you ask him to cut it out, then you can call a judge.

It seems like a lot of you guys in this thread are trying standardize a lot of issues that aren't standard (in accordance to rules) yet.

I'm not sure people are trying to "standardize" things as much as just see how other players feel about it. I'm finding the discussion very valuable. It's good to know when other players consider a move to be made so I can err on the side of conservatism.

More precise rules in regards to the mechanics of playing pokemon should be put in the place to clear up this and other similar issues. Some people think its ok to take stuff back and some people think its not ok. Who is right and who is wrong here?

I'm not sure that additional rules are necessary. If you want to allow a take-back, that's your call. In the meantime, the onus is on you to avoid situations where you even have to ask.

 

[toxictaipan]

And my point is, where is the line? If we allow a hand, should we then allow a finger? How about the clown that thought an elbow would work? We have reached the point where we are attempting to rationalize nuisance behavior.

When there is a wide gray area, the only way to disambiguate is to draw the line on the white side.

That's just wrong. Once you make another action, you've made your move.

What we're talking about here, though, is if you clearly pause your move before you finalize it to contemplate on changing it.

The clown who thought the elbow would work made a number of moves before he wanted to take the Energy back. Once you make another move, your previous move has been finalized.



Why does there have to be a black and white ruling for everything? You can't always have one, so its useless to try when there are easier solutions.

If you're thinking about your move, hold the card like a human being and decide on your move. If someone pulls some kind of shenanigans, then they deserve to be called out on it.

I'm getting a little tired of this one guy who's going to tournaments all over the place acting like an idiot and ruining everything for everybody. Penalize this spaz and let everyone else carry on playing like normal people.


If it works for chess, why can't it work for Pokemon? How does chess handle it when someone tries to pull such shenanigans? It's a good place to look, since we're dealing with an almost identical situation.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess#Touch-move_rule

Eh, looks like serious chess play follows something similar to the forward motion rule in Poker.



The way I see it, the best way to handle it is if the player lets go of the card, his move is finalized and he must ask for permission to take back the move. Letting go of the card should be clearly defined as holding the card in your hand with at least 2 fingers (I usually hold my cards between my thumb and index finger while attaching anything, playing trainers, etc.). That gets rid of the "Oh my finger/elbow was still touching it" shenanigans.

 

[xcfrisco]

snip

I guess it just comes down to what kind of pokemon tcg you want to play. Some people play just to win and others want to play their opponents at their best. There's obviously nothing wrong with playing to win if you're following the rulebook. But playing to win from a momentary lapse in judgement thats EASILY correctable or alterable is pretty lame imo. I really like that example of someone trying to attach a fire energy chimchar and then IMMEDIATELY wanting to attach it to gible instead. Sounds like there's people in this thread who wouldn't let said player make that move.

What's worse is that usually when people want to take their moves back, it shows you that they're CAPABLE players, seeing as they running scenarios in their mind for a match they are actively engaged in. This is much better IMO than someone who just constantly makes mistake after mistake similar to the ones I've listed in the last post and its costs you a good, thought-provoking match.


I mean, I can play my little sister in pokemon all I want, she's terrible, and not worry about not winning. She makes mistakes all the time like missing energy drops, forgetting to announce powers, etc.

If I wanted to play people at their worst, I wouldn't play pokemon or enter tourneys either.


PS. Most people who I enter tourney's with in Vegas have a similar mindset that I do in this regard. This is probably the chief reason I feel this way, due to the courtesy other players have extended to me when I first started playing this game about a year ago.

Vegas>the 'gym :tongue:

response in bold!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you give me a definition for "taking too long" please? Sounds like its highly up to interpretation and therefore completely subjective.

 

[Chairman Kaga]

Why does there have to be a black and white ruling for everything?

Because it spares us from wasting effort on arguing in threads like this one.

 

[toxictaipan]

Because it spares us from wasting effort on arguing in threads like this one.

No it doesn't, because people like me will start threads about why stupid rules should be changed. :wink:



I just don't see why we can't just use the "you let go of it, you finalized your move" deal. "I still have my finger on it" is clearly shenanigans and should be dealt with accordingly.


I don't think a rule that hurts so many players (I wouldn't like it very much if I wasn't allowed to take things back if I was still holding the card, clearly thinking about my move. I doubt many other people would enjoy it, either. Feel free to speak up, guys) for the sake of being black and white is as ideal as a commonly accepted unspoken rule that doesn't cause trouble 99% of the time.

 

[Ninja]

I'm kinda wierd, and i feel bad if they mess up and they ask me. So I most of the time say sure... I need to get over that lol.

 

[skovtrold]

I'm kinda wierd, and i feel bad if they mess up and they ask me. So I most of the time say sure... I need to get over that lol.

OMG you have a heart or something ? shame on you, this game is only for the cruel and merciless!! Only zeh forces of evul can has cute little animals !!!

 

[toxictaipan]

Can you give me a definition for "taking too long" please? Sounds like its highly up to interpretation and therefore completely subjective.

The opposite of stalling your opponent is rushing your opponent by telling them to hurry up/play faster/whatever.

Rushing, like stalling, is also against the rules. Your opponent should call a judge over to watch the match if he feels you're playing too slow. Rushing you will only make you play slower (I mean, how hard is it to concentrate when someone's sitting there bugging you to go faster?), which will not help the situation at all. If your opponent is rushing you, you should call a judge over to watch the match.

 

[yoyofsho16]

I make some mistakes, so I don't care. I like REAL games, not ones where I win due to a fluke. Sometimes judges just have to be called, though.

 

[DukeFireBird]

I noticed the chess analogy. The moment you touch the piece, if it can move, thats the piece you must move. So if you touch the card to another, Id consider it played.

 

[uuuufff]

I noticed the chess analogy. The moment you touch the piece, if it can move, thats the piece you must move. So if you touch the card to another, Id consider it played.

yeah but pokemon isn't chess.

 

[Squidwina]

I guess it just comes down to what kind of pokemon tcg you want to play. Some people play just to win and others want to play their opponents at their best.

I want to do both. As far as I'm concerned, if an opponent is at his or her best, then he or she isn't making mistakes.

That said, I allowed some take-backs at the BR on Saturday. I'm not a hard-line no-take-backer, but if my opponent makes a mistake in a critical match, I'm going to try to take advantage of the opportunity. And I expect them to do the same.


I'm not sure what your little sister has to do with anything if you're not playing her in tournaments.

 

[toxictaipan]

I noticed the chess analogy. The moment you touch the piece, if it can move, thats the piece you must move. So if you touch the card to another, Id consider it played.

But that is assuming you're using the serious chess play rules.


Obviously there are some mixed opinions on this. If judges are going to judge one way or the other, then we need a rule about it. I don't want to get used to one way, then visit a different area and have the judges throw me for a loop.

I think I might email TPCi about this.... See what they have to say about it.

 

[Lawman]

But that is assuming you're using the serious chess play rules.


Obviously there are some mixed opinions on this. If judges are going to judge one way or the other, then we need a rule about it. I don't want to get used to one way, then visit a different area and have the judges throw me for a loop.

I think I might email TPCi about this.... See what they have to say about it.

They will tell you (if they even answer this) to play at a lively pace and not play sloppy. When you play sloppy, bad things can happen!

Keith

 

[David's Confused Pokedad]

Or you can get a judge that slows the pace of the game play down and then really bad things happen.