How would Sabledonk be played under BW rules?

[bullados]

Uxie Donk needs to hit pretty much every single card in the deck to get the quad donk. And it still happens. Every game when going second and not facing an SF Gastly or AR Tomb. And even the Tomb can be worked around with Cyclone Energy.

 

[Skitty]

Uxie Donk needs to hit pretty much every single card in the deck to get the quad donk. And it still happens. Every game when going second and not facing an SF Gastly or AR Tomb. And even the Tomb can be worked around with Cyclone Energy.

So at best Sabledonk will become a slightly better version of Uxiedonk? That's fine, but look at how popular Uxiedonk was. It wasn't used a large amount in tournemants, though i did see some play. And a big difference with this is that if you attach a Cyclone Energy to get rid of Spiritomb then you can't use Overconfident that turn.
In short, I can see Sabledonk being used alot but not dominating that format like SP did.

 

[Yoshi-]

It will become an uxiedonk that can donk when going first. Uxiedonk "failed" because you lost when going first

 

[Redados1]

So you're saying that their starting hand would consist of Sableye, a Crobat G/Collector, 2x Poketurn, 2x Junk Arm and 4 Pokeblowers? That's a pretty specific had even with trainers/supporters on the first turn.



Assuming that both of my Pokemon have 60 HP each (the average) then you would need to get a Sableye, a dark energy and 7 of the following: Pokeblower/Super Scoop Up/Poketurn/Crobat G, or one Seeker. Still better, but I don't see you getting all of those in your hand consistantly. And then you still have to worry about getting heads on the Pokeblower and Super Scoop Up. That and if someone somehow starts with 4 basics (which won't happen much though) then you pretty muh auto-lose because you run out of stuff to do after 1-2 turns.

Thats what Uxies are for.

 

[NoPoke]

UxieDonk is a 50% deck. Where you end up is (almost) totally reliant upon how many times you get to go second and how many times you have ot go first.

Now if UxieDonk can go first and play trainers then it becomes a much better than 50% deck :frown: It can still go wrong but it doesn't care about the opponents skill (as a solitaire deck it never did). The only issue for UxieDonk is the combined HP of the opponents starting pokemon and when it gets to play its trainers.

 

[Redados1]

So at best Sabledonk will become a slightly better version of Uxiedonk? That's fine, but look at how popular Uxiedonk was. It wasn't used a large amount in tournemants, though i did see some play. And a big difference with this is that if you attach a Cyclone Energy to get rid of Spiritomb then you can't use Overconfident that turn.
In short, I can see Sabledonk being used alot but not dominating that format like SP did.

Thats what Regice is for.

 

[eriknance]

So at best Sabledonk will become a slightly better version of Uxiedonk? That's fine, but look at how popular Uxiedonk was. It wasn't used a large amount in tournemants, though i did see some play. And a big difference with this is that if you attach a Cyclone Energy to get rid of Spiritomb then you can't use Overconfident that turn.
In short, I can see Sabledonk being used alot but not dominating that format like SP did.

Skitty, I don't want to sound rude, but it sounds like you just don't get it. I've seen Uxie donk in action only a couple of times, mostly because nobody in my area plays it. In both cases though, the other player went through their entire deck in a single turn. This is because of Uxie's Setup power, allowing you to draw up to 7 cards when it's dropped. Add in Super Scoop Up, Seeker, Pokedrawer+, etc. and it's easy to go through most of the deck. It's during this process that Crobat G's and Poketurns are dropped.

With Sableye, donk decks suddenly get the chance of going first even if the other player should have gone first. Then, trainer explosion! If the other player starts with a lone Spiritomb, Pokemon Collector for a Crobat G and Unown Dark to win. If they bench another Pokemon, there's always the chance to use a Cyclone Energy (though I will admit that this would be hard to do). In lots of cases, however, the Spiritomb start might not happen.

With Uxie donk and new B&W rules, you practically win every time you go first. With Sableye added into the mix, you have a better than 50% chance of going first. And even though it might not be the best deck to play, it certainly is the easiest. Plus, with the entire format revolving completely around speed, I don't think anyone's going to pass up the opportunity to play the fastest deck known to this game.

Now, for anyone still questioning the legitimacy of Uxie/Sableye Donk in an MD-on format with the B&W rules, go do some playtesting like StormFront did.

 

[bullados]

erik: I somehow managed to forget Regice, who becomes another Junk Arm target if you don't see a Tomb+Basic T1. Plus, you SSU/Seeker it, you've got more Junk Arm targets and another Uxie spot.

 

[Porii Sames]

Erik, you CANNOT Collector T1, unless you Impersonate that is.

 

[Yoshi-]

at least read the title -.-

Were talking about the black&white rules...

 

[eriknance]

Erik, you CANNOT Collector T1, unless you Impersonate that is.

Here's the post from Pokebeach: Link

Go down the page a bit, and you find this:

As mentioned in our previous story, “Trainer cards” are now called “Trainer’s”. This is the umbrella term for all cards other than Pokemon and Energy (vanilla Trainer/Goods, Support, and Stadiums), so the new ruling stating that Trainer’s can be played on the first turn of the game means that even Support cards can be used on the first turn of the game. The old restrictions on Trainer’s were largely to limit Rare Candy abuse, but with Rare Candy’s errata, that is no longer an issue.

Pokebeach's info is usually pretty legit. Based on that, I'd say that Supporters fall under "Trainer's." So yes, Supporters T1, meaning I can Collector for a Crobat G, Crobat G, and Unown Dark to KO nearly anything with 70 HP if I get a Sableye start... and that doesn't even scratch the surface when it comes to multiple Uxie/Crobat G drops, Expert Belt, Seeker, etc.

Edit: ^Yoshi-, I think Porii was under the impression that Supporters could not be played turn 1 with the new B&W rules.

 

[Yoshi-]

Oh I see, sorry^^"

 

[ARMondak]

They can't possibly be THAT stupid to implement the new rules with these cards in the format... right?

Also for Worlds, I can see them maybe going to a HG-SS on format with the B/W rules.

 

[Nugget_]

I wish that they did implement this with a rr on rotation even ar would be lovely. GothruZelle would be the play tbh. If they don't midseason rotate and implement the new rules I quit.

 

[Scipio]

So you're saying that their starting hand would consist of Sableye, a Crobat G/Collector, 2x Poketurn, 2x Junk Arm and 4 Pokeblowers? That's a pretty specific had even with trainers/supporters on the first turn.

As others have explained: Uxie Engine. It is highly possible to go through an entire deck using that.
I didn't even add SSU to my calculation...

 

[jrwaxman]

If we don't see a rotation I am sure they will ban at least Sableye. I have been in touch with a friend in Japan since the earthquake to make sure that he is okay. As you can see by his quote they are playing without Sableye with the new rules. I would assume that we would do something similar.

You know that some rules have changed in Japan when Black & White is released. Will those rules change in United States, too? We lost Sableye when the rule changed but you still have Sableye. Sableye will be so strong with new rule.

Lets hope anyway.

 

[Scipio]

They rotated on to HS when they got the new rules. Would mean a mid-season rotation, not a Sableye ban.

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

At least if they don't rotate mid-season Nationals will be over quickly

 

[waynegg]

Look at the BW cards. ALL T/S/S say "TRainer's" at the top. IT's all of them t1.

Thanks! I haven't even looked at any of the upcoming cards other than what came in the Preview pack. Been way to busy.

 

[Skitty]

Thats what Regice is for.

I must admit that I forgot about Regice when I posted that.

Skitty, I don't want to sound rude, but it sounds like you just don't get it. I've seen Uxie donk in action only a couple of times, mostly because nobody in my area plays it. In both cases though, the other player went through their entire deck in a single turn. This is because of Uxie's Setup power, allowing you to draw up to 7 cards when it's dropped. Add in Super Scoop Up, Seeker, Pokedrawer+, etc. and it's easy to go through most of the deck. It's during this process that Crobat G's and Poketurns are dropped.

With Sableye, donk decks suddenly get the chance of going first even if the other player should have gone first. Then, trainer explosion! If the other player starts with a lone Spiritomb, Pokemon Collector for a Crobat G and Unown Dark to win. If they bench another Pokemon, there's always the chance to use a Cyclone Energy (though I will admit that this would be hard to do). In lots of cases, however, the Spiritomb start might not happen.

With Uxie donk and new B&W rules, you practically win every time you go first. With Sableye added into the mix, you have a better than 50% chance of going first. And even though it might not be the best deck to play, it certainly is the easiest. Plus, with the entire format revolving completely around speed, I don't think anyone's going to pass up the opportunity to play the fastest deck known to this game.

Now, for anyone still questioning the legitimacy of Uxie/Sableye Donk in an MD-on format with the B&W rules, go do some playtesting like StormFront did.

Well I'm only going by my own experiences. I tested against quite a few Uxiedonk and Shuppetdonk decks when they first got popular and they only ever actually donked me about 25% of the time that they went second. I ended up donking them more times than they did me (I was running a Gardevoir/Giratina deck at the time). Maybe I was just playing against people that didn't have a good build, or maybe they just got extreamly unlucky, but either way they weren't that impressive to me. Nearly all of the games that they would have donked me they needed that one flip on Super Scoop Up and didn't get it and lost. Though Seeker wasn't around then and will definately make the deck better, I don't see Sabledonk becoming as good as SP was. And remember, I'm only giving these comments based on my playtesting against the deck, your experience and what you playtested with and against may differ greatly from me.