I think there needs to be another product that has basic energy cards.

[SMP88]

I'm not going to quote everything, but just to counter a couple of your points.

- You say that Magic has a cost in Magic Online. Magic Online sells online boosters at MSRP and then requires you to pay $1 for an entry ticket, with many tournaments needing multiple tickets. PTCGO is (relatively) free. The game doesn't cost anything outside of the booster code which doesn't require an additional purchase. Therefore, Magic Online is completely self sufficient, while PTCGO's upkeep comes from physical card sales.

- Pokemon is in no fear of dying. I can't find the exact site, but if you look at retail rankings Pokemon is consistently 2nd or 3rd in sales, and has been for a while. Competitive play is also gaining with huge strides in the past 2 years, with huge showings at the recent regionals, states and nationals.

- Saying that going to a league for a couple hours once a week means that Pokemon is our life is ridiculous. It's called a hobby. I'm terribly sorry that you can't find a couple hours a week to go to a league, but it's offensive to hear you saying that Pokemon is my life since I go to a league once a week. And while some leagues don't allow other games to be played during the allotted time (since if kids are coming out to play Pokemon they should have the entire time allowed to play) some leagues (like mine) do allow it. League last week was kinda slow, so I brought out some Kaijudo starters and played those with my friends there.

- If you have no desire to play in anything but household game, Just make proxies out of duplicate commons until you get more energy. Just write "metal" on a metal type card and use that as an energy. You're seriously the only person I've heard that has had a problem getting energy. Even random kids that come in to league and barely have any cards have enough energy. Your problem is that you don't want to go anywhere else to obtain the cards. A big part of Pokemon (especially for new players) is the social aspect of it. Going to league is suppose to be fun, and if you need help building a deck, either with strategy or getting the cards you need, then I'm sure the players at league can help.

- While I can agree that something that contains multiple energy would be good for beginner players, there are multiple avenues that they can get the energy right now, and fairly simply at that. The way you're attacking everyone that disagrees with you (and is showing evidence on why it wouldn't necessarily work) isn't helping your cause one bit.

 

[signofzeta]

I'm not going to quote everything, but just to counter a couple of your points.

- You say that Magic has a cost in Magic Online. Magic Online sells online boosters at MSRP and then requires you to pay $1 for an entry ticket, with many tournaments needing multiple tickets. PTCGO is (relatively) free. The game doesn't cost anything outside of the booster code which doesn't require an additional purchase. Therefore, Magic Online is completely self sufficient, while PTCGO's upkeep comes from physical card sales.

- Pokemon is in no fear of dying. I can't find the exact site, but if you look at retail rankings Pokemon is consistently 2nd or 3rd in sales, and has been for a while. Competitive play is also gaining with huge strides in the past 2 years, with huge showings at the recent regionals, states and nationals.

- Saying that going to a league for a couple hours once a week means that Pokemon is our life is ridiculous. It's called a hobby. I'm terribly sorry that you can't find a couple hours a week to go to a league, but it's offensive to hear you saying that Pokemon is my life since I go to a league once a week. And while some leagues don't allow other games to be played during the allotted time (since if kids are coming out to play Pokemon they should have the entire time allowed to play) some leagues (like mine) do allow it. League last week was kinda slow, so I brought out some Kaijudo starters and played those with my friends there.

- If you have no desire to play in anything but household game, Just make proxies out of duplicate commons until you get more energy. Just write "metal" on a metal type card and use that as an energy. You're seriously the only person I've heard that has had a problem getting energy. Even random kids that come in to league and barely have any cards have enough energy. Your problem is that you don't want to go anywhere else to obtain the cards. A big part of Pokemon (especially for new players) is the social aspect of it. Going to league is suppose to be fun, and if you need help building a deck, either with strategy or getting the cards you need, then I'm sure the players at league can help.

- While I can agree that something that contains multiple energy would be good for beginner players, there are multiple avenues that they can get the energy right now, and fairly simply at that. The way you're attacking everyone that disagrees with you (and is showing evidence on why it wouldn't necessarily work) isn't helping your cause one bit.

If that's your line of line of thinking, then people would rather play MTG over this game. I'm not making it available for only myself, but to potential new customers. Just be lucky that I'm even sticking around with this game. Any other person who would have the same problem as me, would outright quit because they know companies like WOTC caters to a wide audience, and companies like TPCi just caters to a narrow focus.

There is no way PTCG is 2nd. We all know that MTG and YGO are better in ranking than PTCG. In Canada, that isn't the case, well maybe in Toronto, but in Winnipeg, more people play WoW TCG over Pokemon TCG.

Releasing a pack of 8 energies, one of each, and I'm being generous here, with a box set once or twice a year, which isn't asking for a lot, has more upsides to it, than downsides. The downsides you listed are overexaggerated. There is no way that the price of one piece of cardboard costs more than a cent. Magic cards, WoW cards, and Pokemon cards. They are all cardboard and ink. The cards only cost a lot because of the value they want to give each card based on rarity. Another example. Tell me why, buying 6 boosters cost $24, while buying a theme deck costs $12? In both cases, you have 60 pieces of cardboard and ink. Therefore, TPCi could hypothetically sell 60 basic energies for a dime. Remember, they are all cardboard with ink on them.

As I said, I can have a bathtub full of basic energies, and I would still complain until basic energies are distributed into more areas by including them in existing products. The best product being the box set. As I said, path of least resistance. Between MTG and PTCG, both having their resource system, the reason why MTG is doing so well, is because it tries its best to cater to everyone.

Telling people to go buy online, or just suck it up and travel super far to a league, and yes, 11 miles is far. 50 miles is far, you are just willing to pony up on gas, and I don't have the luxury to, is no way to solve this problem. As I said, it works for you, it doesn't work for everybody.

You say attending leagues are supposed to be fun, from what I see here, I could just attend my league, get 80 basic energy, and leave, because that's my objective, which is stupid. It is a stupid business model to get people to conform to their way, rather than design the product so that it is compatible with everybody. This is why MTG is so successful and PTCG is a distant third, and I do mean distant third.

Let's just say that everyone here is viewing this in "rose tinted glasses".

Still waiting. VALID CONSEQUENCES to adding basic energy, and I'm going to be generous, 1 of each, in a box set, once a year. VALID CONSEQUENCES. I'm waiting. Here's a problem. How do you get basic energy:

1. Right away, right now, let's give a time frame of about an hour.
2. for less than $5, assuming that the value of each booster is $4 in a box set, so that ideally, less than $21 in a box set that contains 4 boosters and the basic energy.
3. Not travelling more than 5 miles for everybody.

You failed to address all 3 points. Telling people to suck it up isn't the way to go. It goes to show the lot of you are way too conservative with the game, and it isn't helping it. If the game is so growing, then how come it is so dead in Winnipeg, well I wouldn't say dead, the game is dead, but the cards do sell. The game is only dead because people here have given up on the game because getting started, and be able to build whatever decks they want without having to shell out so much cash on buying 6 theme decks isn't the best solution.

Oh for the record, I don't like to give my city and address in a forum thread. I already spilled the beans with which city I live in, so no, sending my card online via mail isn't an option. Exception being if I knew Kenny Wisdom in real life, he owns one of the many hobby shops in Winnipeg, or goes to school in Winnipeg, which I doubt.

Hey, here's a cool idea, release some of what japan releases. Release an empty box with 40 basic energies in it, and make it cost $6.59, or 525 yen. You also didn't address why Japan is more willing to distribute basic energy to the general public, but the internatonal version only distribute it to Pokemon Professors only? It even shows that Japan knows that basic energies are so required, that when someone runs out, because some people do like to build multiple decks without taking apart the previous one, they can just go buy more. $6.58 for 40 basic energy and a box. The store near me that sells pokemon card singles sells them at 25 cents each, making it $10. It isn't that hard of a concept to find a way to distribute basic energy to the general public via including them in existing product.

 

[Swordfish1989]

All I heard seriously is 'much ado about nothing'. All of the problems you mention are problems that no one else is complaining about - only you for some odd reason.

I mean seriously, driving 11 miles to league kills you? I drive 18 miles to work every day, and on Fridays I get the privilege of driving straight from work to league, a 23 mile journey. And I don't even care about competitive Pokemon that much, I just go to 1 league a week, attend 1 pre-release, attend the closest Battle Road/Cities, and Regionals/States if I'm not busy that weekend. If you're not even willing to make the slightest sacrifice for this game, casually or competitively, then your argument is null and void. I mean seriously, other posters here have named numerous easy ways to acquire energies (including buying from sellers on the gym which is much cheaper) but yet you still make it seem like it's impossible and too hard. Right now you're looking like the actors in infomercials who are struggling to complete the simplest tasks and require a weird pricey fix that no one would ever buy.

 

[SmeargleMe]

Wow. 5 pages of people beating on signofzeta and he stays in for the fight. I've read about 3 constructive posts the whole time.

Signofzeta - I agree that there's some missed opportunities to convert people over to the game playing side of the cards. However, this isn't your audience. While some P!P employees do read these forums, most are competitive players who have energies coming out of their ears but would love Pokemon Catchers in each pack. As some others have said it's a niche market you're looking at when a casual collector wants to play the game but doesn't have the right cards\energies. I think it's very limited time period because usually within 6 months after playing and establishing a means of getting the energies you need, you don't want\need any more energies and that's the resistance you're seeing here.

A while back there was a thread in the forums on the official Pokemon website asking how to obtain energies for a new league. The best answer was to ask the local OP for some since they didn't have enough points to order them. Well what if the OP doesn't get along with the shop\league owner? I was in that situation because I wanted to run an unsanctioned mutant draft at the league I attend and needed about 200 of each energy. I eventually was able to hit those number via ebay (and the donation of another professor). Trying to keep under $.05 per energy is not easy. While it shows there's a market, it's very limited one that Nintendo probably feels the theme decks and the secondary markets are filling.

I do like your suggestion about the tins. There's a lot of wasted space in them that they could easily put to use with energies (the sweetspot for how many would be up to Nintendo to research - perhaps match the type of the promo card) and maybe a rulebook. Yes there would be some additional printing and shipping costs but the number of new players would probably offset it (or jack up the price by $.25) as I'm sure the average player spends a great deal more annually than the average casual collector on new product. While they maybe trying to address that with the online game, I think adding some more tangible product would help attract new players.

 

[primeapemaster1]

Wait till this kid finds out about special energy

But in all honesty, if you came on this thread just to trash our game and tell us how MTG is so much more affordable and easier to play than pokemon, then please, stop complaining and go play MTG. If you were trying to be a competitive player i could see some of your points coming up as valid, but the fact that you're not willing to take apart a theme deck for its energy, or drive 11 miles to a league is outright ridiculous. You also complain about TnT having insane international shipping? Well i'd like to believe that in all of Canada's entirety there's at least 1 gaming store that is willing to ship and sell you basic energy. You constantly bring up the same points over and over, and when people offer you solutions, like they have been since the very beginning of this thread, you either ignore them, like you did with kenny, or you go off on a tangent and tell them how ridiculously impossible it is for you to apply that solution. If all you plan on doing is complain about how the game is run and produced, and don't plan to fix your problem in any way shape or form then please just stop complaining and stop talking altogether.

 

[Ziggmiceter]

^He said it all.

Replying to your arguments:
Ink is very expensive. It costs $50 on average for a cartridge of BLACK ink. You make it sound like it's very easy to make a Pokemon Card. This is what they have to do:
Pay for the ink
Pay the artists
Pay for the cardboard and strip in the middle of the card that verifies that the card is real
Pay for the holofoil that goes on Reverse Holos, Holos and EXs
Ship it to thousands of stores and retailers, including international retailers
No matter what card it is, whether it's a basic energy or Pokemon Catcher they cost the same to make barring holos and EXs

Spending $20 to travel 100 miles total isn't expensive
Your league takes less than a gallon to go to, it doesn't matter what car you have or how much traffic there is
A "valid consequence" for having a Basic Energy Box Set is losing money
"Telling people to suck it up isn't the way to go." Those people are you and you only
The game is far from dead
TCG isn't even TPCI's main product and they have more things to worry about than WOTC
YGO isn't that popular in the US, PTCG is easily second

 

[signofzeta]

Wait till this kid finds out about special energy

But in all honesty, if you came on this thread just to trash our game and tell us how MTG is so much more affordable and easier to play than pokemon, then please, stop complaining and go play MTG. If you were trying to be a competitive player i could see some of your points coming up as valid, but the fact that you're not willing to take apart a theme deck for its energy, or drive 11 miles to a league is outright ridiculous. You also complain about TnT having insane international shipping? Well i'd like to believe that in all of Canada's entirety there's at least 1 gaming store that is willing to ship and sell you basic energy. You constantly bring up the same points over and over, and when people offer you solutions, like they have been since the very beginning of this thread, you either ignore them, like you did with kenny, or you go off on a tangent and tell them how ridiculously impossible it is for you to apply that solution. If all you plan on doing is complain about how the game is run and produced, and don't plan to fix your problem in any way shape or form then please just stop complaining and stop talking altogether.

NO. That's not the point. The point is that WOTC CARES about the casual crowd, and people who play their game at home, and RESPECTS people who don't prefer to doesn't attend Friday Night Magics, and who doesn't necessarily play the game that they intended for them to play.

Here it is different. Not releasing energies, in any way, shows that they are spitting in the faces of the casual crowd. I mean, why would anyone play this over MTG, or YGO, or even WoW if they don't have access to the cards they need, and they either have to travel further, buy online, which some people, they don't prefer, or prefer to play at home? Because WOTC allows them to without making them spend a ton of cash.

Basically all I'm seeing is, TPCi doesn't release basic energy beyond the league locations because they are saying "you aren't playing in league locations, and you want to play and build decks, and do whatever to our product? SCREW YOU, YOU SUCK." That's all I'm seeing with it.

As I HAVE SAID, I have YET TO SEE ANY CONSEQUENCES as to what adding 8 energy cards, 1 of each type, would do. As I said before, I would have a bathtub full of energies and I would still complain, because it isn't about if I have energies or not.

Oh, and for the record, I haven't even attended a friday night magic, or any sanctioned magic torunament, and I can still build magic decks without having to buy $60 worth of theme decks..

If WOTC makes it so accessible to get their resource system to players who don't necessarily attend their tournaments and leagues, and FNMs, then all I was suggesting that TPCi should do the same, but not really in the same way, but in a way that give access to energies without attending leagues. We have people like Kenny Wisdom donating energies, but is he TPCi? I don't think so. The fact of the matter is that, TPCi isn't distributing energies outside of leagues, and other people are doing it just shows that TPCi aren't really caring to make the game grow, and is more of a niche market game.

A person who would have absolutely a clean slate, as in no preference would most likely buy the cards for collecting purposes over playing, knowing that it is mandatory to attend a league, and they don't feel like it.

It is also the fact that there is so much disrespect here, A fact that I don't prefer to GIVE OUT MY ADDRESS OUT ONLINE IN A FORUM, and the fact that I don't necessarily play the game THE SAME WAY YOU DO, and the fact I am more comfortable playing any TCG at home, rather than in a game shop, and would rather play with someone I personally know, over a stranger.

The fact is, BASIC ENERGY is a NECESSITY in everyone's deck, but yet, TPCi, and not Kenny Wisdom, or some other volunteer, but TPCi doesn't release them in a non precon produc. The theme deck is geared towards people who hate the idea of deckbuilding. I suggested a product that is geared towards people who love deckbuilding. You have to spend SIXTY DOLLARS, yes count them, sixty dollars on theme decks just to get a good supply of each of the 8. You say that TPCi solved the energy problem by releasing theme decks, but that isn't the most effective way to distributing energy, and neither is forcing people to attend locations that they don't have time to attend. All I was suggesting is a different way to obtain basic energy cards from an OFFICIAL PRODUCT.

Another fact is, Pokemon TCG Japan also release basic energy in retail products in non-precon products too.

All I see with the lot of you is that you are wearing rose tinted glasses. Whatever TPCi do, you agree, and whenever someone comes in and suggests something that could improve the game, and I mean, distribute basic energies in boxed products like box sets or tins, and you bashing that guy just shows that the entire PTCG community disrespects outsiders, to the point that you all think that adding 80 pieces of cardboard, or even 8 pieces of cardboard would totally kill the game, and that it would be the end of the world. THE GAME WON'T DIE just because there are 8 basic energy cards included with a box set that is released once or twice a year.

Doing this is only going to bring upsides, and I am still waiting for someone to come in and give me some downsides, which I have yet to see.

 

[Ziggmiceter]

^Read my post for a reason why they won't make these. But I doubt you agree because you don't know any way they can lose money for making a product that in reality won't sell.

Another fact is, Pokemon TCG Japan also release basic energy in retail products in non-precon products too.

Not true. Japan only releases energy in their battle strength decks.
I understand this isn't just about you. That being said, WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING TO OTHER PLAYERS ABOUT THIS "PROBLEM". Why don't you send a ticket to TPCi instead and maybe they'll understand (If you write it in a respectful manner, which somehow I doubt you will).

 

[King Piplup]

The fact of the matter is that there would never be enough interest to make such a product as the one you suggest sell.

 

[Electrode]

No one spends $60 on theme decks JUST for the basic energy, they have common sense and buy them on the internet.

 

[primeapemaster1]

I'm sorry, but i'm pretty sure the person with the "rose tinted glasses" is you. As i stated before people have offered you many solutions and to use your own words show "constraints" on why what you want isn't so doable/profitable for TPCI. You're comparing a card game that is run by it's own company to 3 other card games that are run by a different company. If you have a problem with how TPCI is distributing their products, then do as Ziggmiceter said and write TPCI directly about it instead of hopping on a forum and ranting to players that are content with the way the game is now, and have no interest in how WOTC distributes their cards. If you say that you're just a casual player who wants to just play with your friends at your house, then the theme decks that you have should be fine for you. But if you want to get competitive and are too stubborn to drive 11 miles and take the energy from a theme deck (that has a list of what is in it) then no one on this forum can help you.

 

[psychup2034]

All I see with the lot of you is that you are wearing rose tinted glasses. Whatever TPCi do, you agree...

This is laughable. I criticize TPCi all the time. This is one of the things that TPCi is doing right (not wasting the resources making packs of energies that major distributors will not carry), and you come in here accusing people of always siding with TPCi.

TPCi makes horrible decisions all the time. They're making a right decision here. I sympathize with your idiosyncratic problems, but packs of energy is not the prudent solution to this problem.

 

[signofzeta]

This is laughable. I criticize TPCi all the time. This is one of the things that TPCi is doing right (not wasting the resources making packs of energies that major distributors will not carry), and you come in here accusing people of always siding with TPCi.

TPCi makes horrible decisions all the time. They're making a right decision here. I sympathize with your idiosyncratic problems, but packs of energy is not the prudent solution to this problem.

Dude, I never mentioned anything about them selling only packs of energy. I said they should INCLUDE THEM in existing box sets that they release 12 a year. Include energy in at least 1 or 2 box out of 12, that they release a year. I already proven that just by adding at least 8 cards won't increase the price by a significant margin, and how is it not a solution? People who don't have energy can buy one of these box sets, which contains a few boosters, a promo, maybe a large card or a figurine, and 8 energy cards. That is the best solution for EVERYONE, rather than catering to a subgroup that already knows how to play, attends leagues, and makes it their number one hobby over everything else. Of course your view of "everyone" is only people who attend the league you go to, rather than the untapped market.

You're making it look like TCPi will lose a ton of money just because they release 8 energy in a box set, and I am doing the minimum here, as there should be at least 24 basic energy in each box set. They are not going to lose money if they release 8 to 24 basic energy cards in ONE OF TWELVE box sets every year. It's just 8 cards. It doesn't cost a lot print, and energy cards hold no value. Every card is supposed to cost a fraction of a cent t print, but it only costs more because of what is printed on it, and the rarity. The box set, with 8 basic energy included, would be bought for the promo, the boosters, or maybe the figurine, and the 8 basic energies wouldn't be the centerpiece of that product, and in fact, the basic energies would probably be hidden behind some of the more important stuff in the box set. Of course, that is one of many ways that they could have distributed basic energies to the "General Public", and last I checked, you and your crew sitting in the league isn't defined as "general public".

I accuse you, or your crew, for siding with TPCi every time, because what I propose would only be an improvement. It taps into the untapped market. There is no consequence in this.

I have yet to see any consequence in releasing 8 extra cards once a year in a box set. I have yet to see one. Still waiting. I also want valid arguments this time, since you are so keen on saying that TPCi is doing something right by not bundling 8 extra basic energy cards into box sets once or twice a year.

But let's say that TPCi does release 8 basic energy cards as an extra bonus to some of the box sets that they release every year. The only people who would be vocal about it are those who make PTCG their life. If it isn't your life, then you wouldn't be vocal if they did something about this anyway.

The solutions I have been given are workarounds and not permanent fixes either. It doesn't work for everybody. No mode of transportation? No Credit Card? Oh too bad, can't buy online nor go to league. Some people, like me, also don't feel comfortable ordering things online.

 

[SMP88]

What good would including 1 of each type of energy be? You'd end up having to buy more box sets to get anything useful. If you include any more they're going to have raise the price, the cards aren't free to print, no matter what you may think

 

[psychup2034]

I already proven that just by adding at least 8 cards won't increase the price by a significant margin, and how is it not a solution?

To combat this, is to make a product that has all 8 energies at once, something like an 80 energy pack, a few boosters, and some semi-random cards.

Adding 80 cards won't increases costs? That's funny.

I accuse you, or your crew, for siding with TPCi every time, because what I propose would only be an improvement. It taps into the untapped market. There is no consequence in this.

A hypothetical individual who accuses me of siding with TPCi every time would be doing so because of ignorance.

The solutions I have been given are workarounds and not permanent fixes either. It doesn't work for everybody. No mode of transportation? No Credit Card? Oh too bad, can't buy online nor go to league. Some people, like me, also don't feel comfortable ordering things online.

The solutions you have given are ignorant of the fact that basic energy cards are easily accessible, as shown in this post. The fact that you think that the game has to be accessible to everyone demonstrates some short-sightedness about marketing for the game. The game's target audience isn't everyone. Pokemon doesn't have enough resources to target everyone. They have to strategically target their most profitable segments.

Why would including 80 energy packs in boxes be a bad idea? Because the Pokemon trading card game generates a majority of its revenue from little kids buying cards at retailers. What don't the kids (and their parents) want to see when they open those packs? A ton of basic energy cards. The people who actually need lots of basic energy cards are the competitive players, which is a minority among the audience that TPCi is trying to target with the Pokemon TCG products that you see on the shelves of Target and Walmart.

If I were a 10-year-old who bought a tin, I would be happier to get a promo, some packs, and NO basic energy than a promo, some packs, and some basic energy cards. Why? Because that kid feels like the basic energy cards are useless and would thus feel "gypped." Why give me basic energy cards when I could be getting more Pokemon? This is a case of addition by subtraction. Pokemon would get more repeat business from their largest market segment (little kids) by including only packs and promos in tins than by including packs, promos, and basic energies.

 

[FirestormXVI]

Spend $10 on energy. You're good for the rest of your life. I'm really confused here. We live in 2012. If you're too afraid to order things online, then honestly take your tinfoil hat to another game. I don't think you'll be missed. Folks who aren't crazy enough to think you can live in Winnipeg and expect everything up to and including trading card games to be available to you within walking distance will either just stop by their local league one night, use the base set energy they or their friends / family already own, or order them for a paltry $10 and never worry again.

Decks don't run more than 12 base energy typically. It's not a large investment.

I started playing this season and lost most of my cards long ago but was still able to scrounge together what I needed. If not, there's a league near a mall I'm often at and could just drop by and I'm sure people would give me energy for free or for a few cards / dollars.

 

[signofzeta]

Adding 80 cards won't increases costs? That's funny.



A hypothetical individual who accuses me of siding with TPCi every time would be doing so because of ignorance.



The solutions you have given are ignorant of the fact that basic energy cards are easily accessible, as shown in this post. The fact that you think that the game has to be accessible to everyone demonstrates some short-sightedness about marketing for the game. The game's target audience isn't everyone. Pokemon doesn't have enough resources to target everyone. They have to strategically target their most profitable segments.

Why would including 80 energy packs in boxes be a bad idea? Because the Pokemon trading card game generates a majority of its revenue from little kids buying cards at retailers. What don't the kids (and their parents) want to see when they open those packs? A ton of basic energy cards. The people who actually need lots of basic energy cards are the competitive players, which is a minority among the audience that TPCi is trying to target with the Pokemon TCG products that you see on the shelves of Target and Walmart.

If I were a 10-year-old who bought a tin, I would be happier to get a promo, some packs, and NO basic energy than a promo, some packs, and some basic energy cards. Why? Because that kid feels like the basic energy cards are useless and would thus feel "gypped." Why give me basic energy cards when I could be getting more Pokemon? This is a case of addition by subtraction. Pokemon would get more repeat business from their largest market segment (little kids) by including only packs and promos in tins than by including packs, promos, and basic energies.

ok, you're not making any sense here. How is it that by paying the SAME PRICE, that you are gypped if you get 8 extra cards? It makes no sense at all.

I SAID THAT THE BASIC ENERGY ISN'T THE CENTERPIECE OF THE BOX SET. What part of that couldn't you understand?

Just think of it. You have 2 groups. One is the "little kid" market, or in this case, the collector market, and one is the potential "Pokemon TCG player" market, which does include little kids. By not including energies, you are only tapping into one market. If you do include them, you are tapping into BOTH markets. Have you heard of this, If you are feeling gypped just because you have some basic energy cards in your posession, then you are being gypped for the wrong reasons. Since when does getting something more for a fraction of a cent counts as being ripped off? It doesn't. I have tons of basic lands from fat packs that I still keep in the wrapper, because I don't need them. If you were smart, you'd do the same.

80 basic energy is the ideal number because typically, 10 of each energy is enough to make a 2 type deck. But considering that box sets come with 3 or 4 boosters, and that from that little amount of boosters, you get 1 or 2 cards from the desired type, I would have to make it so that these box sets would include 8, 16, or 24 basic energy, depending on the number, but that doesn't matter here. It's just 8 extra cards, basic energy that have no value, and therefore WON'T AFFECT THE PRICE. It's not like you are paying $1, no, 50 cents, extra just because of the basic energy. Wow, you get gypped if you had to pay an extra penny? Last I heard, pennies are worthless nowadays. You can find one off the street.

 

[psychup2034]

ok, you're not making any sense here. How is it that by paying the SAME PRICE, that you are gypped if you get 8 extra cards? It makes no sense at all.

Have you ever studied psychology? The less-is-better effect is an important consideration when determining how to package products.

A tin with packs and promos would be preferable to the target market (little kids) than a tin with packs, promos, and basic energies—even at the same price.

I SAID THAT THE BASIC ENERGY ISN'T THE CENTERPIECE OF THE BOX SET. What part of that couldn't you understand?

Read the wikipedia article on the less-is-better effect. It doesn't matter that the basic energy isn't the centerpiece of the box set. The mere inclusion of basic energy in that box set is a disappointment for the target market (little kids) and causes the box without basic energies to be less preferable when judged independently.

 

[signofzeta]

Have you ever studied psychology? The less-is-better effect is an important consideration when determining how to package products.

A tin with packs and promos would be preferable to the target market (little kids) than a tin with packs, promos, and basic energies—even at the same price.



Read the wikipedia article on the less-is-better effect. It doesn't matter that the basic energy isn't the centerpiece of the box set. The mere inclusion of basic energy in that box set is a disappointment for the target market (little kids) and causes the box without basic energies to be less preferable when judged independently.

Thank you for posting a link to the article to prove that I am right.

Yeah, according to the article, the thing only won't sell if you sold one, then the other separately. I haven't seen any wal-marts or targets, or zellers, or toysrus, or any game stores that sells each product one at a time. This effect only works if there is nothing to compare against. If someone goes to a store, sees 2 box sets at the same price, and for argument's sake here, sees that one has basic energies, and one doesn't, FOR THE SAME PRICE, then they would prefer the one with basic energy.

The only players I believe that would go for the one without basic energy would be the one who already established themselves as collectors, and those who already know that it is futile in obtaining basic energy without attending leagues or buying online, but those coming in with a clean slate, would buy the ones WITH basic energy.

In the wiki article, they say people prefer 24 dinnerware set over 24 dinnerware set + 7 broken ones. From last I checked, Energy cards has the potential to be used. Broken cutlery doesn't have potential to be used. Likewise, it says something like people prefer a small dictionary with a clean cover, over a larger one with a torn cover. For the same price, I'd rather have 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, 56, 64, 72, or 80 (any of these values), released through an official product, over buying used and slightly damaged basic energy second hand at an online retailer.

I'm going to go back to MTG in relation to this article. Starting with Magic 2013, they added a second booster. I hated it because I have to pay $2 more, and because I knew the fact that previous intro packs cost $2 less and have only 1 booster included. For those who don't know that fact, they look at both, sees that the one with 2 boosters holds more value, and buys that over the older ones. Likewise the same can be said about box sets with and without basic energy. The newer players would see that the ones with basic energy hold more value, and they get information that this is a game as well as a collectable. The only people who wouldn't buy the ones with basic energy would be the ones who actually buy tons of these box sets already, and these kids would grow out of it, and brand new kids would come into it and prefer the ones with basic energy because they have a clean slate to look at the two and compare. The exception is if they received these as gifts. But they have a clean slate anyway. They could be future players, or future collectors. I bet any kid would cry if they bought something, and realized they need something else in order to play it.

The box sets that include 8 basic energy, when compared to other box sets, without basic energy, to pure collectors, they see the basic energy as something extra tacked on, without raising the price. To players, who also collect, and by players, I mean casual players who play the game on the side, beyond collecting, sees it as completing something that was otherwise incomplete. These players no longer have to buy an incomplete product, and then buy something else to complete it.

To really test this out, if you are a hobby shop owner, try something like this. Whenever someone buys 3 pokemon TCG boosters, tell them if they want 1 of each basic energy for free. My hypothesis is, those who already have tons of basic energy would probably not go up with the offer. Those who don't, will probably take that offer. Of course this will probably be in stores that runs leagues, but if this works, it proves that a box set that contains basic energy can work, and can be sold not only in stores that run leagues, but stores that don't run leagues too.

 

[psychup2034]

Thank you for posting a link to the article to prove that I am right.

Yeah, according to the article, the thing only won't sell if you sold one, then the other separately. I haven't seen any wal-marts or targets, or zellers, or toysrus, or any game stores that sells each product one at a time. This effect only works if there is nothing to compare against. If someone goes to a store, sees 2 box sets at the same price, and for argument's sake here, sees that one has basic energies, and one doesn't, FOR THE SAME PRICE, then they would prefer the one with basic energy.

You're making a simple mistake here. It's understandable, so I'll explain it to you:

It would make no sense to sell both box sets (one with energy, one without energy) because the one without energy would not sell. Thus, given the fact that you can only sell one, you would prefer to choose to sell the one without basic energy cards, as it prevents the target customer (little kids) from feeling like they're getting worthless cards (basic energy). Basic energy cards are only valuable to the competitive player, who is a small part of the market segment. This part of the market segment would be able to procure basic energy anyway.

---------- Post added 10/27/2012 at 11:23 PM ----------

In the wiki article, they say people prefer 24 dinnerware set over 24 dinnerware set + 7 broken ones. From last I checked, Energy cards has the potential to be used. Broken cutlery doesn't have potential to be used.

Your comparison is fallacious. Basic energy cards have almost no value to the target market (little kids), just like broken dinnerware has almost no value to the target market.

For the same price, I'd rather have 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, 56, 64, 72, or 80 (any of these values), released through an official product, over buying used and slightly damaged basic energy second hand at an online retailer.

Once again, this returns to the point that I was making on the first page of this thread. You're just being finicky and acting entitled. I still use the base set energy that I played with 13 years ago. They're slightly damaged from all the shuffling I've done, but they're still playable.

Access to basic energy isn't really a problem, and it certainly ranks low on the list of items that makes competitive play prohibitive. Your attempt to conspire a problem when none exists is admirable, but ultimately lacks any true substance.

---------- Post added 10/27/2012 at 11:29 PM ----------

The box sets that include 8 basic energy, when compared to other box sets, without basic energy, to pure collectors, they see the basic energy as something extra tacked on, without raising the price. To players, who also collect, and by players, I mean casual players who play the game on the side, beyond collecting, sees it as completing something that was otherwise incomplete. These players no longer have to buy an incomplete product, and then buy something else to complete it.

The fact that you think that including a rainbow assortment of 8 basic energy in a box would "complete something that was otherwise incomplete" is ridiculous. Which competitive deck only uses 1 of each different type of basic energy? Which competitive deck can be built using only the cards that come out of a tin? None.

---------- Post added 10/27/2012 at 11:32 PM ----------

To really test this out, if you are a hobby shop owner, try something like this. Whenever someone buys 3 pokemon TCG boosters, tell them if they want 1 of each basic energy for free. My hypothesis is, those who already have tons of basic energy would probably not go up with the offer. Those who don't, will probably take that offer.

Which hypothesis does this experiment attempt to answer? Your experiment doesn't test the core problem: is including more basic energy in boxes a good business decision for TPCi?

You keep trying to remove the business side from your arguments, which in my opinion, demonstrates a tremendous amount of short-sightedness.