I think there needs to be another product that has basic energy cards.

[Articjedi]

Funny how you are a huge PTCG fan, but not know everything about the official tournament formats, while I have NEVER played in tournaments, and know what each format is. If you actually read the link that I posted, TWICE, you would know that.

Deeper, and deeper in the hole....

 

[psychup2034]

Make a product for deckbuilders, which as a secondary affect, gives access to energy for people who don't have them, and put energy in retail products so that people have easier access to them.

Energy is already easily accessed through internet distributors and Pokemon League. In fact, there have been multiple people in this thread who have offered you to send you the energy that you need.

Do you have any evidence that there is a profitable market for a "deckbuilder"-type product in the North American market? (Just because you want the product, it doesn't mean that there's a wide market for it.)

Pokemon's TCG's target market is little children (and their parents who spend the money). Pokemon, unlike Magic, does not depend on its TCG's competitive play to survive as a franchise. That's one huge advantage the Pokemon franchise has over the Magic franchise. Therefore, Pokemon sells products that are most marketable and most palatable to the tastes of little children. A "deckbuilder"-type product is certainly not one of those products that would appeal to Pokemon's target audience. Don't get me wrong, if I would be happy if TPCi made a "deckbuilder"-type product. I just don't think they will because there's no wide market for it.

That being said, your initial proposal (the one that you finally agree is bad) was terrible. Packaging 80 energy cards to sell? That would be tragic.

I was thinking that selling packs of only energy wouldn't sell, so I decided it would be better to bundle it with something, whether it be boosters, deckboxes, or card storage boxes.

I'm glad you've finally come around on this part of the debate. Your revised proposal of a "deckbuilder"-type product has been discussed before (and is widely accepted by the community as a good idea). However, it may fall under the same "wouldn't sell" category as packs of energy.

You have to remember that casual players and competitive players only make up a small part of Pokemon TCG's revenue stream.

 

[Trican]

To be honest I've read this thread on and off so if this point is bought up somewhere my bad guys:

We had this conversation on our League's Facebook thread recently so I wanted to share my two cents. If you want to be a casual player you have full rights to do so. You'll likely pick up a starter theme deck and start your deck building from there. You want to diversify you find a way to get that new energy. You don't like your options? You continue to work on what you do have access to. You don't want to keep buying new product for the game? Buy a chess set. Ignoring any books you'd purchase to better learn chess you only have to buy supplies once. If you're goal is to become competitive in Pokemon you will have to get used to the price to play. If you can't deal with the price to play you're not going to be competitive. Mind you this doesn't always have to be a cash answer. If you have local friends who are going to play and you decide sharing cards between you is a possibility you have dealt with the price to play.

I am not particularly old (late 20s), but I feel half the time I grew up in a different time than so many people that play this game. I know growing up I had chores I got an allowance for (yes I do realize some parents say you get free housing, food, clothes, etc so no allowance) and if I needed more than my allowance I was allowed to work odd jobs for neighbors and when I turned 16 I got a part time job.

This isn't meant as a spite for anyone of a particular socioeconomic group, but just a bit of how I feel on a subject. TL;DR if you really want to compete you're going to find some way to deal with the cost of entry into high level tournaments (in this case acquiring cards that you need since TPCi doesn't charge an entry fee.) No one is going to spite you for being a casual player, but at the same time if you're looking to drop money into the game a minimum amount of times there are games that better accommodate one time investments. The TCG is expecting to continually make money (reasonable) especially considering they don't charge you to enter their tournaments (more than generous.)

 

[Otaku]

...

What if they started packaging the Energy with some sort of toy?

I mean, I am surprised TCG cards aren't included in every Pokémon product large enough to hold them anyway. Especially if they were foil (or some other special treatment) of Energy, including it with a toy would still entice at least some kids.

Serious players who want this Energy just get a bonus toy.

 

[solo59486]

...

What if they started packaging the Energy with some sort of toy?

I mean, I am surprised TCG cards aren't included in every Pokémon product large enough to hold them anyway. Especially if they were foil (or some other special treatment) of Energy, including it with a toy would still entice at least some kids.

Serious players who want this Energy just get a bonus toy.

Isn't that what they did with Mcdonalds twice. (except it wasnt an energy card)

 

[Otaku]

Isn't that what they did with Mcdonalds twice. (except it wasnt an energy card)

Except instead of just doing that with a kids meal, just make it the common approach to the products as a whole. I mean, just throwing in an Energy card would still "advertise" the game.

Not focusing on the primary topic of getting a lot of Energy out there, but just adding the TCG to current non-TCG products as a "bonus"/cross-sell that could already fit a single card in. The weight would go up on a massive trailer full of goods since now that-how much does a card weigh?-is being multiplied by however much the shipment contains of individual goods, but this isn't quite the same as adding 80 Energies to a single product.

The question is, how much would it cost to maintain normal promo guidelines to just re-release current versions as promos? I suggest that to minimize impact on the actual game for those already playing and to minimize production costs.

 

[ChaosJim]

I think the conversation has taken a great turn.

How does a "deckbuilder" concept gain appeal to a younger audience?
1) Legendaries
2) Foils
3) Popular Characters

Seriously, we never got Ash's Pikachu or Ash's Pikachu Level X. I honestly believe you could package those two cards in a clear plastic box with 58 energy and a barcode and watch it sell.

If we take the view that Black and White Kyurem, as well as Dragon types, are the hot market item right now, let's consider what you could do with them:
Release 2 different 30 card packs.
1 (Color) Kyurem EX
3-2-1 line of unplayable Dragon-type (can't make it too good)
3 Basic from the TV show
(10 Pokemon)
2 Supporter not from the most recent set (Juniper? Full Art?)
1 Supporter from most recent set
3 in some combination of some of the trainers we didn't get in the most recent set.
1 Switch or Potion or something
(7)
13 Energy

It looks like a starter deck with the fat trimmed off.

 

[Otaku]

3-2-1 line of unplayable Dragon-type (can't make it too good)

I disagree there; some kids (or perhaps more likely parents) will be turned off if the very first product they purchase for the game turns out to be almost useless. Plus, it just never is a good policy to make intentionally "bad" cards. "Simple" cards do not have to be "bad".

Instead of doing [insert owner/] Pokémon, with recognizable characters from the games as recurring characters in the animation who would have "teams" from both sources (animation and games), yeah making some "character" decks sounds like a great idea.

Make them a decent starting point (e.g. about as good as a properly doubled Starter deck) and I can't emphasize enough, include an actual "toy" or DVD with it and you have a good gift pack for someone who doesn't even know the TCG but like Pokémon, but still worthwhile for other players as well; alternate artwork and the like coupled with reliable pulls can please both experienced collectors and players.

...

Why doesn't the cartoon work with the TCG more anyway? I don't expect Ash to be playing the game or anything, but coordinating video game, animation, and TCG so that they compliment each other seems like good marketing.

 

[chrataxe]

I only read the first page of this...

...but...

I must say, just based on the first page, shame on everyone but the OP. Obviously he is new and all everyone did was put him down because he had a good idea, but whatever, I guess that's how the internet it. I also like how the thread went off topic on the second post...


Based on some things I've seen on the first page, I'd like to point out somethings that are just...incorrect.

1. Making a product is such is an awesome idea. It doesn't even have to be a promo item and it DOES NOT have to increase the price for EVERYONE else, as the claims say. MtG and WoW both have 15 cards packs and have a lower MSRP than Pokemon. Every WoW pack has resource cards (though not needed) and every MtG pack has a basic land. Either bumping the packs to 11 cards or replacing a common for an energy every pack is an easy way to make energy easily accessible and NOT increase the price.

2. Selling "energy packs" is an amazing idea as well. If there is a legitimate fear of children being angry about getting energy instead of Pokemon, there is a really, really simple solution: don't sell them at large retail locations. In other words, sell them exclusively at local game stores, or online even. It amazes me that basic land is free at most stores and new Pokemon players are expected to pay for a starter deck to get them. I remember being happy this past year as we got tons of decks with dark energy in them. Doesn't seem like the best way to go about it.

3. Comparing MtG and Pokemon (or any other game) is NOT a bad idea, even if YOU don't like it. Collectively, as a GAME (which is why we all PLAY) and OP, MtG is light years ahead of Pokemon. If you don't understand that, you must have no desire to want to see Pokemon grow and be better. But, if comparing them is a bad idea, then lets go back to Elo. Pokemon went to the point system after seeing it excel in MtG.

To me, NOT selling energy just shows how little TPCI cares about OP...if the "kids" and "collectors" don't want the energy, then its "only" the "players" needing it, thus the reason its not available...

To quote one of my new favorite quotes: "What you do speaks so loudly, I cannot hear what you say."

 

[psychup2034]

I must say, just based on the first page, shame on everyone but the OP. Obviously he is new and all everyone did was put him down because he had a good idea, but whatever, I guess that's how the internet it.

People disagreed with the OP because his initial idea of selling "packs of 80 energy cards" was horrid, not because he is new. You are confusing the causality of people's reactions.

There is a huge difference between creating a "deckbuilder"-type product (which the OP has now revised his argument to) and packing packs of 80 basic energy. Packs of 80 basic energy will not sell, regardless of how badly you want them to sell. "Deckbuilder"-type products (that contain some basic energy cards) are a good idea if they are made attractive to both casual/competitive players and little children. Packaging more basic energy into existing products is a horrible idea.

Someone who thinks selling energy packs is an "amazing idea" certainly has no idea about Pokemon TCG's primary market. Those players who play casually/competitively can get basic energy cards easily and inexpensively from league or from online retailers. Those people who comprise a majority of Pokemon TCG's revenue stream do not care for boring packs of basic energy cards. Horrible idea is horrible.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

People disagreed with the OP because his initial idea of selling "packs of 80 energy cards" was horrid, not because he is new. You are confusing the causality of people's reactions.

There is a huge difference between creating a "deckbuilder"-type product (which the OP has now revised his argument to) and packing packs of 80 basic energy. Packs of 80 basic energy will not sell, regardless of how badly you want them to sell. "Deckbuilder"-type products (that contain some basic energy cards) are a good idea if they are made attractive to both casual/competitive players and little children. Packaging more basic energy into existing products is a horrible idea.

Someone who thinks selling energy packs is an "amazing idea" certainly has no idea about Pokemon TCG's primary market. Those players who play casually/competitively can get basic energy cards easily and inexpensively from league or from online retailers. Those people who comprise a majority of Pokemon TCG's revenue stream do not care for boring packs of basic energy cards. Horrible idea is horrible.

I disagree. Yes while the initial concept of the OP was unrefined and excessive I don't think it was without merit, and I feel that a lot of the argument that have been made on this thread have been overly critical and unhelpful. Instead of criticizing the OP for making 'dumb' suggestions you could always try to improve the idea instead of destroying it.

I've been asked several times in the past if I had any energy by new players, players who don't want to buy a theme deck they don't need, and who either don't want to buy online, know about TnT, or other such reasons. So there are people who would use such a product.

The question then becomes how do we make such a product useful to the average player? Well why not make them holo with a neat design to them akin to the ones from Emerald, or Holon Phantoms, making them unique and interesting for players who want to foil out their deck. Make them come in packs of 8 with one of each, or packs of 5 of one energy type, They could be their own product or included in tins or blisters, and change the energy designs once a year or once a block to give them a longer lasting appeal. That way players get a new way to foil out their deck and new players have easier access to energy.

 

[vaporeon]

^ I'm also tired of seeing people destroy a post because they feel there are other means of getting cards. Like you said, not everyone knows about a secondary market or retailers that sell cards. most energy bundles you'll find are not cheap and adds up fast.

The purpose for this would be for beginners to have access to the game for as cheaply as they can. They can make a starter kit and sell it for like 40 bucks that would include;

9 booster packs of the latest set (Boundaries Crossed)
15 of each basic energy
10 supporters
20 item cards (Switch, Potion, etc)
A starter deck
A few Legendary Pokemon to appeal to the kids (Keldeo, B/W Kyurem)

There is no real reason this can't work. Magic has one. Because of that, we know it can work.

 

[FunnyBear]

The purpose for this would be for beginners to have access to the game for as cheaply as they can. They can make a starter kit and sell it for like 40 bucks that would include;

9 booster packs of the latest set (Boundaries Crossed)
15 of each basic energy
10 supporters
20 item cards (Switch, Potion, etc)
A starter deck
A few Legendary Pokemon to appeal to the kids (Keldeo, B/W Kyurem)

This product would need to have a retail price of $55+ to be consistent with the current line and its retail pricing. At that level, I think you are pricing out your target market. Compare to other entry level products like theme decks.

I think the original concept product already exists and is sold in the Professor store for points. How much would that need to go for retail?

There is also a need for simply a better class of theme decks, though we should all know by now that if you buy two theme decks, you can make a decent deck of 60 cards.

 

[vaporeon]

A better class of starter decks can work as well.

 

[espeon200]

I only read the first page of this...

Read the rest of it. Trust me, read the rest and you would see that that approach was tried and it failed.

 

[Aron Figaro]

This product would need to have a retail price of $55+ to be consistent with the current line and its retail pricing. At that level, I think you are pricing out your target market. Compare to other entry level products like theme decks.

I think the original concept product already exists and is sold in the Professor store for points. How much would that need to go for retail?

There is also a need for simply a better class of theme decks, though we should all know by now that if you buy two theme decks, you can make a decent deck of 60 cards.

Cut the boosters, price it at 20 bucks. The point is to make it cheap and accessible, and besides - I barely see starters sell without being priced to clear.

 

[Otaku]

Cut the boosters, price it at 20 bucks. The point is to make it cheap and accessible, and besides - I barely see starters sell without being priced to clear.

Which brings us to what the thread should have been about; why are people so annoyed at just buying starter decks to get Energy? Because many starter decks are only good for Energy.

Making starter decks a little more deck and a little less "starter" might be good, but even that is a bit misleading; I don't consider them that great of starters, either.

 

[FunnyBear]

Doubling theme decks work as decent starter decks with a lot of extra cards and you'd be at $24 retail. Surely one could cut out the redundancy and make a decent one at $20.

 

[Otaku]

Yes, and something that we were discussing before the latest... shift was how to make products geared for serious players (beginners or vets) that appeal to random little kids in the mass market was... tack on a toy or something. Sort of the reverse approach to McDonald's; the kids meals only appeal to kids so much for the food... but toss in a toy and most of us grew up loving the concept.

When we finally started getting Pokémon cards in them, toys were added in so that kids weren't too bored. So if we have a product geared for deck building but want to make it look good to a kid not especially interested in playing or even collecting, a small plush toy, simple action figure or detailed statue, etc. can help it appeal to a broader audience.

If they would start coordinating the games, the animation, the manga (in Japan at least), and the TCG, there are so many product combinations that would make sure that even if a particular release wasn't a high priority, every bit of the fandom would have reason to get it.

Especially with the willingness to create "filler" promos, I don't see why every Pokémon product that can easily accommodate a trading card doesn't have a promo card included.

 

[ChaosJim]

Otaku, when I say "bad" cards, I mean uncompetitive. If you believe every single card in a product targeted to casual and competitive players must be competitive, you also believe it is okay to hurt the sales of booster packs: it is not.