Infinity Engine

[Flaming_Spinach]

Sorry. I was at school all day.


Re-post with edits enclosed:


The fix depends on what type of deck becomes big in your area.


Maganium-Steelix: Ho-oh would definatelly be the better choice. Ray d ex is resisted too hardcore by Steelix to be any good. If you play Ray, they will simply send up a Steelix and snipe your Fearows and Pidgeots until you have nothing left to prevent the 2HKO on your Ray. Agro Hooh is the only real chance you have. Dugtrio's a possibility.

Raieggs: Hard to tell which version would be better. Their Zzzaps plus Curse Stones plus BFs plus Ces. Crystals would make this a very hard match. Dugtrio might be able to save your bench (at least, until they play a Ces. Crystal and Zzzap the same turn).

Metanite: They CAN reach 110 damage. Ho-oh would at least be able to OHKO their Metagrosses, but they will just OHKO you back (eventhough it may take a turn or two). Buffer Piece would help.

Gardevoir d ex (yes, it'scoming): They place 1 Seal Marker and defeat everything you setup for. Since there's no way(I can see) that you're going to OHKO them, each Gardevoir will put AT LEAST 2 Seal Markers in play. The only way you have a chance is with Tropius.

Mewtrick: They can trap a stadium in play. Ruins runs through you, and BF stops your Pidgeots and Amphy DFs. You can 2HKO Mews, but Manectric is very hard for you to deal with. Tauros gets rid of the stadium lock.

Lunarock: Depends on what stadium they play. They can play BF and Stone, which hurt you, but they have no way to lock them into play. If you can play around the stadiums, they still shut off your Pidgeots power. Space Center can help you.

Flariados: Hard to tell. They can OHKO your main guys (whatever you use) if you flip a tails with Full Flame in play, or Spider Trap a Pelliper and make things hard for you. Here's another deck that plays BF. I'm not sure what can help with this one.

Basically, you lose to anything with power denial or bench damage. If you're looking for ideas, here's a list of what I proposed, andsome other ideas I didn't get to.

Buffer Piece
Dugtrio
Tropius
Tauros
Space Center
Ho-oh > Ray aslong as you can get the right energies on him.


As I said, it's too delicate. Anything that shuts down any 1 of your cards shuts down EVERY one of your cards because you need ALL of them to make the whole deck work.


I look forward to your refutations!

 

[Prime]

Prime, based on the translation I'm reading, Rayquaza reduces its costs by (C), not removes all (C) from its costs.

So it would cost LLC to do 70, not LL.

There was actually an english scan of Rayquaza EX d on ZEO, let me find it:
http://www.sugarshock.net/zeo/mvt/ff_rayquaza.jpg

There you go. "Ignore all C energy needed to use..."

On the topic of authenticity, I trust that it's correct.

 

[ryanvergel]

I agree with FS, at the deck's current state- a gardevoir D would CRUSH this deck. Cessation Crystal also binds the deck up a lot (4 Windstorm is nice, but you might get locked up with a C Crystal and not have a way to counter it for a turn and get hurt big).
Bench killing (in the form of Megalix, or Delta, or even Lunasol sniping) will hurt the deck too. Giant Stump could really hurt if used in a good combo.

Has anyone brought up Shiftry? You have to use every power you have every turn. You also don't have a fighting or grass pokemon... The deck is also pretty slow and cumbersome. Shiftry can also snipe the bench. I see you having a huge problem against shiftry. All your pokemon take 20 a few times (Fearow can only take using its power three times... and you don't have infinite Brineys). Shiftry sniping would kill this deck. Use a power once and both Fearow, Mewtwo, and Pelipper are in range for OHKO. With a jolteon ex, you could be verrrry hurt. Jolteon ex+Shiftry=60 damage. If you already got hit for 20 by using his power, Pidgeot has 20 hp left. He's not useless, because he will die upon usage.
Shiftry will see play, and it will hurt you a great deal.

The deck is very frail and vulnerbale to prize issues. Against Megalix, if any pokemon is Prized and sniped, you're virtually at a loss. If they snipe your pidgeot twice, it will crush you. Snipe a Pidgeot and have one prized and it's even worse.

Just about every big archetype will have an answer to this deck somewhere.
Ludi- Crystal Shard OHKO all your energy. Shut down.
Delta-Energy Root to make sure you have to 2HKO. Zzzzap the bench a few times and you're going down hard.
Flariados-Trapping a Pelipper (like FS said) will hurt you big.
Gardy D-A few turns of it's power and it's pretty much game. Click one on the Pidgeot P2 or the Pelipper one turn, and the other the next, or two of the same kind... Without a Tropius, you're stuck in a rut.
Metanite-They can do the OHKO. Give it a few turns of sacrificing Castforms and they can take you down. You're also dangerously weak to Lightning, so if they manage to Reversal a Pelipper or Fearow or Pidgeot early and kill it, and if the counterparts are prized, you're stuck.
Shiftry-The deck inherently counters this.

This seems like a metagame deck to me.
If you know what you're expecting, you can tech the deck accordingly and make the matchups better. At a league or CC or GC, this might work extremely well. However, come a big tournament with a lot of decks and possibilities, and it will get harder. The deck is also prone to bad luck. It's hard to set up, and bad prizes could kill you, as could a bad matchup here or there. As it is, almost every deck that is probably going to be an archetype has an easy time with you (delta, metanite, Gardy ex...)

 

[Dendrobatida]

Flamin' Spinach:

Thanks for the in-depthyness! Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to give you the refutations you crave, because at its core, this is a powers-based deck...A powers-reliant deck...and it's a complicated combination. Thus, it is as fragile as you suggest. I have no "Ha-ha, my deck is perfect, because you failed to consider THIS! --------->" for you. Rai-eggs is a horrible matchup. Anything that shuts down powers is a horrible matchup - that's just the nature of this deck. In fact, that was one of the primary reasons why I questioned the viability of this deck for competitive play ("Competitive? We'll see.") in my initial post. Let me reiterate my reason for building it and intending to play with it: it looks like fun to me. And my reason for posting it: to get help with the execution of the deck. We usually reserve a matchups section for archetype sorts of decks, or tested decks. I feel like doing a complete matchups section is sort of like seeing if the sharks can penetrate your diving cage before you test whether or not it rusts...I'm asking for help with the deck itself, the main engine of it and the cards that make it work, and you want me to think about four or five steps ahead of that - remember, I'm not putting this little deck out there as a potential archetype, or trying to get it stickied as a feature article. I'm trying to get help with it....

That being said, I also realize that your analysis of matchups is not necessarily done in order to bash my deck, or its concept. You're asking me to consider it IN a competitive format, even if it might not be my intent to play it regularly there. I dig that. In a way, it's flattering, because it indicates that you expect me to be doing most of my play at a high competitive level...or, at least, that's the way I'm gonna choose to interpret it, because it does wonders for my ego that way. Unfortunately, it might also mean that I can't just post for-fun decks and expect less scrutiny and more help. Scrutiny ain't always bad, though. So matchups...Since I still lack the cards, the best I've been able to do is simulate setups with the second version (the first, legal now, is fun to play, but pans out as you might think...stalls a bit when you have to make a choice between picking up the mewtwo or the rayquaza), and not run intense matchup comparisons. Still, lemme see if I can come up with how I'd play the decks you've listed, bearing in mind that none of this is supported by playtesting.

Meganium-'nstuff: Meganium as an active isn't scary. Groudon isn't scary. Kyogre is, and so is steelix -ex. Dugtrio would prevent the bench damage, but as you've likely ascertained, there ain't much room for a dugtrio on your bench. I agree that ho-oh is the most viable option that I've found. The bench damage makes it a tougher matchup. One distinct possibility might be the inclusion of several holon energy and a tech delta pidgeot, to shut down powers other than mine. With the delta ampharos in play, my own pop2 pidgeot would still work. However, that's another bench slot to consider...

Raieggs: If it was a really hard matchup for blastoise, it's going to be hard for this deck too. The windstorms will help, as will liberal amounts of shuffling in with pidgeot. I'd be more inclined to try a splashable basic fighting pokemon to address the raichus and weakness. Not much comes to mind - it'd have to be able to withstand a shot for 90 from a scramble'd raichu after taking the first down. If I ran a few holon's castform, or other pokes, once the cessation crystal was gone I could fearow for them, effectively being able to power a groudon or regirock of some sort. Hitmontop is the only basic fighting pokemon with a completely splashable attack that can ohko a raichu, and it's bleh. But yes, this is no doubt a difficult matchup. I run several pokes resistant to exeggcutor, so I don't fear that as much, but then again, who does?

Metanite: Here I'd be looking to exploit weaknesses as well (dragonite is horribly weak to ampharos and pidgeot, metagross to ho-oh, should I go that way). The fact that it can reach 110 damage is an issue, since the deck doesn't have much space to run buffer pieces. But what deck doesn't have issues with an opponent being able to do 110 damage a turn?

Gardevoir ex d: Another pokemon that gives anything with powers problems. POP2 pidgeot can help, and I'd probably be looking to get both in play, so that I could continually cycle out things that had seal markers on them. The delta pidgeot tech would help here, too.

Mewtrick: Another place where the fighting pokemon would help. Or a psychic pokemon. As I'm writing these, I'm wondering - do folks do this to all decks people post? What deck posted in the last 30 or so posts would withstand a listing of ten or so other decks that give it problems? Or are you just suggesting that this deck isn't good for the current format? Maybe that's why the rules suggest people shouldn't post "This deck loses to...." type posts...it keeps focus off the deck itself and improving it, and redirects it into yet another conversation about the metagame. Does anyone just build a deck that looks like fun and take it to league anymore? Why can't I? Woe is me! Anyway, back on track. I'd definitely keep my energy well-spread out, so that once a benched pokemon took a shot I wouldn't lose all of it in one go. That way I can manage better. Fearow helps, because I can evolve without dealing with rare candies, and it allows my flaafies to evolve, because fearow would be a better choice to snipe.

Lunarock: I'd definitely use rayquaza to snipe off the ones that shut off pidgeot. Since they'd have a tough time ohko'ing my main attackers, I'd ignore the pidgeot in the early stages and just go aggro until I found a window of opportunity.

Flariados: They'd have to focus on pelipper, I'd imagine (Again, remember, I haven't tournament tested any of this...I was mostly looking for input on the deck itself, rather than matchup issues, which I probably would have shared after I'm able to build it and test it). While they focused on pelipper, I'd see what I could do about using rayquaza to harrass benched flareons, or ohko'ing ariadoses if I'm down on prizes. I'd particularly go for getting two pelipper out at once, since that would effectively nullify spider trap's effectiveness.

Tauros is a nifty idea, particularly since I'd be able to use it, essentially, infinitely. It'd also make a nifty starter. There's gotta be room for it somewhere.

Again, sorry for the lack of refutations. I didn't do a matchups section in my initial post because, frankly, I'm not there yet with the deck. You may have been looking for a more argumentative sort of back-and-forth, but I'm not ready to give it to you yet, since I'm still in the building phase with this one. The mental exercise was fun, though.

And remember, kids, just because your deck might have a tough matchup with other decks, doesn't make it any less fun or rewarding to play (I'd argue it makes it more fun). If every player were afraid of the metagame, we'd all be playing the same deck.

EDIT: I just read every thread on the front page of the deck help/strategy forum...this is the only one among all of them where the creator has been asked to address matchups, rather than been given help with the content of the deck. I must be special! That, or competent enough to not need input on the pokemon ratios, the draw engine, the energy allotment. Any tweaks on those? Are rare candy necessary in the second version, with spearows to fetch the evos, given that the stage 2's can't attack on t2 anyway without special energy? Should I drop the candies for tauros? Any suggestions like that?

 

[Prime]

"Gardevoir ex d: Another pokemon that gives anything with powers problems. POP2 pidgeot can help, and I'd probably be looking to get both in play, so that I could continually cycle out things that had seal markers on them. The delta pidgeot tech would help here, too."

Gardevior is delta itself, so delta Pidgeot would not shut it down.

I wish I could contribute more to the idea.

On the subject of being critiqued with matchups, I feel the reason is because people know what you've done in the past with winning tournaments and stuff. So people expect great things from you, which I guess can be taken as a compliment. The game has lost a lot of the fun factor and added more serious competitive factor in it's place. Less and less people have fun at league. So when they see a deck idea from you or any other acclaimed player, they tend to take it very seriously disregarding much of the original idea of the game, playing for fun. Just my honest opinion though.

 

[Dendrobatida]

"Gardevoir ex d: Another pokemon that gives anything with powers problems. POP2 pidgeot can help, and I'd probably be looking to get both in play, so that I could continually cycle out things that had seal markers on them. The delta pidgeot tech would help here, too."

Gardevior is delta itself, so delta Pidgeot would not shut it down.

That's a darn good point.

 

[celeni]

pokemon
3amphros(2UF,1d)
2flaffy
3mareep
2pideot
1pidgeotto
2pidgey
2pelipper
2wingull
2ray ex
1ho oh ex
2tauros
(22)

trainers
4celio
2mentor
1scientist
1adventurer
1farmer
4transceiver
4windstorm
4rare candy
3copycat
2steven
(26)

energy
4lightning
2fire
2water
2grass
1psychic
1fighting
(12)

i think this should help with your metagame problems without destroying your concept. this deck has the potential to be one of the best stalling decks available and amphros really hasnt be made into an arcetype yet. this is why i am interested in helping you.

fearow doesnt help your deck as much as everthing else does. but if you really want it in here remove the tauros. although the tauros are your infinite counter gyms. so

-1tauros
-1steven
+1fearow
+1spearow

 

[pokemonfan123]

I have also tried this idea. Instead of playing the fearows and a hitter, I played Vileplume d and Houndoom. With 2 Celebii ex and 8 Mentor and 4 Holon Circle. You place Holon circle down with doom, and once it is discarded, you can Mentor for 2 Celebii and 1 Aipom. You celebii the gym on top, Aipom it, shuffle the celebii back in. Then you can either a) place the other Celebii if your opponent have more bench then you after you place it down and put a Mentor on top so you can redo the combo, or if you have a Mentor in hand, then leave the Celebii in your hand. With Vileplume d, hopefully you will be able to get a prize. It is a great stall deck, but the problem is you dont gain any cards, so your hand can run out pretty quick.

~fan

 

[Dark Ninja]

I figured out what the Infinity Engine is! and it has nothing to do with Pokemon! Today I got a new Gameinformer, and in the back, on page 155 (if you get it) It says something about the infinity engine. The infintity engine was software created by Bioware that they used from 1997-2002. It was used mainly for open-ended RPG's.