Is the current format the worst ever?

[FSULugia]

Its really hard to say what a real balance should be. I like how some of these decks have some creative strategies and how that energy acceleration is not the only means to winning games, but at the same time its very easy to gain advantage over one player quicker and easily end games. Its almost too easy how you can win games with big basics and energy acceleration vs. evolutions and more focus on special energies. The slower decks can win if they get a break but if they dont then they get wrecked.

I play Ho-Oh EX and If I open 1st turn with Ho-OH EX, 3 energies, Juniper, Mewtwo/some beater, the game will end very quickly. Once I get momentum going, its very hard for my opponent to do anything, especially if they cant make any moves. Especially with things like Catcher and Energy Switch, its very easy to accumulate high damage in such small amounts of time. The thing is about my deck is that it doesnt take much set up, I just keep dumping my hands, bring Ho Oh back and do the rest. The most I worry about is a coin flip at best, my deck gains huge advantages without much set up. Sometimes it doesnt go off as planned but thats how every deck in the game operates. Its 50/50 some games, especially with two good players. Its very one sided with a good player vs. a bad player (which is good), but sometimes the game just plays itself out.

And ultimately I think thats the biggest issue. Its too easy to put big damage on the board very quickly with not much effort. But in a way its necessary when half the cards you go up against have 150+ hp on average which really makes it almost impossible to run anything under 70 hp. I seen it too where so many evolutions have hps like 80-120 which makes them trash and not worth running.

The skill level is probably the best you can get for a card game since games with probability will always have issues, but I think terms of card design and in terms of deck designs, theres a lot of work that needs to be done.

 

[Gamester2488]

I think a lot of the problems can be solved by simply scaling back the HP of the Big Basics. Mewtwo EX would be completely fine at 150 HP, as would Darkrai EX and the rest of the crew. Making a cap on the EX HP would help create breathing room for non-EX's to shine. Unlike the original format, pokemon these days just can't get away with 60HP or less, whereas back in the day, for a pokemon that was going to evolve into something, 60 HP was a TON! The fact that the difference between Basics that were going to be your focus, like Scyther, Hitmonchan, etc (70 HP) and basics that were going to evolve, Squirtle (40 HP) was so minimal meant that the fringe Evolution decks had a CHANCE to get set up without the risk of being shut down on turn one/turn two if they didn't get a great start.

I understand filler has to happen. It has to exist for the game to continue to grow. However, creating such a wide gap between filler and playable cards is awkward for new players. Creating an environment where new players can be allowed to flex their creative muscle is important. Open a pack, find a sweet evolution card, insert Rare Candy and voila, a sweet deck that may not win many games, but you won't FEEL out of the game at any point. They may be doing things that are inherently more powerful, but at least you'll have the opportunity to set up your sweet, uncompetitive combo. That was the biggest draw to the original format. The ability to flex that creative muscle.

So, I guess the difference from my viewpoint, and the reason why people would say this format sucks, is because the difference in power level between the Basic EX's and EVERYTHING else is so huge that it really just shoves any hope for anything remotely rogue out of the format.

For example, look at the top decks in the format that run Stage evolutions:

Hydreigon
Blastoise
Eels

All three of these are simply used for their abilities. They create an engine to "cheat" your EX's into attacking harder and faster. Really, the biggest difference in these decks is how you want to cheat energy. Do you want to play them all from your hand for quick turn 2/3 strikes via Blastoise? Do you want to play for the long game with Eeels and just power up out of the discard? Maybe you want to salvage your energy from pokemon who are about to get KO'd with Hydreigon while being able to utilize Max Potion to it's finest? Either way, the goal is the same. Power up Big Basics with energy and try to out strike your opponent. Where is their room for anything else?

 

[cabd]

Empoleon, accelgor, flygon, and dusknoir say hi.

 

[baby mario]

So, I guess the difference from my viewpoint, and the reason why people would say this format sucks, is because the difference in power level between the Basic EX's and EVERYTHING else is so huge that it really just shoves any hope for anything remotely rogue out of the format.

Properly good competitive rogues are very rare in any format (at least since the massive expansion of info on the internet). It is still possible to have success with decks that are generally thought of as not quite top tier (eg: Empoleon). Quad Sigilyph is a great example of a successful meta counter, but people won't give it any credit because they think its 'too obvious' (why weren't they using it then?) or 'cheap' (which is meaningless).

All three of these are simply used for their abilities. They create an engine to "cheat" your EX's into attacking harder and faster. Really, the biggest difference in these decks is how you want to cheat energy. Do you want to play them all from your hand for quick turn 2/3 strikes via Blastoise? Do you want to play for the long game with Eeels and just power up out of the discard? Maybe you want to salvage your energy from pokemon who are about to get KO'd with Hydreigon while being able to utilize Max Potion to it's finest? Either way, the goal is the same. Power up Big Basics with energy and try to out strike your opponent. Where is their room for anything else?

Really dislike the way you use 'cheat' here (even in inverted commas) to make it sound like it's somehow wrong, unfair, or shouldn't be a part of the game. Energy acceleration has been part of Pokemon since day 1 (Blastoise Rain Dance), it featured heavily in most people's favourite ever format (Metanite, Dragtrode, LBS in the old ex era). Even GG decks had Scramble and DRE, while SP used Energy Gain as a form of acceleration.

 

[Otaku]

Empoleon, accelgor, flygon, and dusknoir say hi.

*waves back*

So I've been wracking my brain how to not only communicate this concisely, but also how to avoid being snide or condescending. I fear I have failed, but this is my attempt:

Am I (and apparently others) so far behind in the "metagame" that we are unaware that there is a more or less even spread of decks built with Basic Pokémon, Stage 1 Pokémon, and Stage 2 Pokémon filling the role of main attackers or the major supporting Pokémon? This is not a sarcastic question, though I fear it reads as such; I've missed the direction the game was heading before and just wish to make sure I have not again.

Otherwise, I must emphasize that this isn't just having a deck built around two Stage 2 Pokémon existing, or a Stage 1 and a Stage 2. It isn't such decks performing "well". We need very similar performances from such decks as we have for decks with big, Basic Pokémon functioning as the primary attackers and supported by Evolutions, and even similarly to decks that are built completely around Basic Pokémon.

Again though, I may be misreading the shifts that are happening in the format (especially in light of revealed future cards), but I don't really see that, and of course in my particular case I see several other elements of imbalance that will remain a problem, but that was not a part of your comment so I won't restate it.

 

[Gamester2488]

Those cards aren't "tier 1" though. They aren't the big five or so. Those cards are "rogue-ish" and thats fine, they have their niche. But look at those decks. They still run Mewtwo EX or a way to deal with him, like Mew EX.

Now, as far as the comment regarding properly good rogues, I think there is a difference between "good" and "psuedo-good." I can't pick up some random stage 2 and honestly believe that I have any chance of even taking a prize. I think that creating a format where you can reasonably play a rogue deck and expect to not just get blown all over the place is something that is important.

For example, in Magic the Gathering I can play the best deck in the format and compete. I can also pick some cool cards that I want to play, and reasonably expect to play those cards in the game, and have them do something in the game. I probably wont win, even a single match, but I'm going to be able to feel as though I could win. I get the feeling that a win is possible if only I had been able to finish my sweet combo in time, but alas, I didn't. I still got to play some sweet card that my opponent who's playing the best deck in the format has never seen before.

In pokemon, chances are VERY likely if I play some cool card against one of the big five, that I will never actually get to evolve into that pokemon and use its attack. Man I want to play Glaceon and feel like I have a chance, but even if I evolve into my Glaceon, I'm probably just going to get donked and I wont even get an attack. Worse, I spent a turn evolving my Eevee and they just play some stupid big basic pokemon and OHKO me every time...

Now, I'm not calling for every card to be competitive. However, people should be able to have the notion that they can play these sweet, underpowered, not good cards and not just get OHKO every time. So, if these big basics either did 50-70 damage fully charged, or only had 120-140 HP, I would be able to play these cool stage 2's and HAVE the feeling that I'm competing. Giving people the ability to believe they are competing, even if they really aren't and have NO chance of making top cut every time, is important to the growth of the game in my opinion.

I may not be making my point well enough. So, I'll TL;DR...

1) People should be able to be comfortable playing cool cards that don't fit into the meta, and feel comfortable that they will get to do something cool in the game, even if they realistically have no shot of winning said game.

2) 80% of the Meta right now (rough guesstimate based on the graphs I've seen floating around) is Big Basic with acceleration of some sort. If this is not accurate, let me know, but when 80% of the format is the same, people tend to believe the format is either stale, boring, bad, etc.

 

[Kayle]

Those cards aren't "tier 1" though. They aren't the big five or so. Those cards are "rogue-ish" and thats fine, they have their niche. But look at those decks. They still run Mewtwo EX or a way to deal with him, like Mew EX.

I fail to see what is wrong with this. It's an extremely good card that demands an answer. Mewtwo is not the only answer to Mewtwo - smart play and prize denial can overcome it, too, though admittedly not as effectively.

Now, as far as the comment regarding properly good rogues, I think there is a difference between "good" and "psuedo-good." I can't pick up some random stage 2 and honestly believe that I have any chance of even taking a prize. I think that creating a format where you can reasonably play a rogue deck and expect to not just get blown all over the place is something that is important.

I don't know what you mean by "pick up some random stage 2". You should never be able to just pick up a random card of any stage or type, including EX, and expect to do well with it. The game is supposed to take some level of competence, planning, and awareness of metagame in order to do well.

I think you also misunderstand the meaning of "rogue". A rogue deck is one that is designed to defeat the decks that are doing well. They are made by surprise and innovation. I'm not going to say that PCL doesn't design rogues into the format, but I will say that the idea that you should "expect" to come up with one and do well automatically shows some level of ignorance as to how they are actually made and how they actually work.

For example, in Magic the Gathering I can play the best deck in the format and compete. I can also pick some cool cards that I want to play, and reasonably expect to play those cards in the game, and have them do something in the game. I probably wont win, even a single match, but I'm going to be able to feel as though I could win. I get the feeling that a win is possible if only I had been able to finish my sweet combo in time, but alas, I didn't. I still got to play some sweet card that my opponent who's playing the best deck in the format has never seen before.

The thing about Pokemon vs Magic is that the power gap between "okay" and "bad" in Magic is more fluid than Pokemon's. I don't mind either way, but it is certainly sad that there is no chance that the modified-legal Glaceon right now could do anything, for example. But it's not impossible to build a zany deck and do well. I DID build a moderately successful Glaceon MD + Froslass AR deck for a while that was purely just because I like Ice-types, even though there's not much redeeming about either of those cards.

I also had a positive record at an extremely large BR (that is, 4-3) with a tri-Hydreigon deck focused around the Consume attack. That was actually hysterical, and has cemented in my mind that this format certainly can be played "for fun" as long as you know what you're doing.

In pokemon, chances are VERY likely if I play some cool card against one of the big five, that I will never actually get to evolve into that pokemon and use its attack. Man I want to play Glaceon and feel like I have a chance, but even if I evolve into my Glaceon, I'm probably just going to get donked and I wont even get an attack. Worse, I spent a turn evolving my Eevee and they just play some stupid big basic pokemon and OHKO me every time...

Trust me, SP was just as bad... you couldn't build a deck that relied on Uxie drops (which most everything did). And let's not talk about one of my poor friends who was traumatized when he made a beautiful anti-meta deck that he absolutely adored to play... and whose entire premise was shattered when someone said "What do you do about Dialga G Lv. X?"

Now, I'm not calling for every card to be competitive. However, people should be able to have the notion that they can play these sweet, underpowered, not good cards and not just get OHKO every time. So, if these big basics either did 50-70 damage fully charged, or only had 120-140 HP, I would be able to play these cool stage 2's and HAVE the feeling that I'm competing. Giving people the ability to believe they are competing, even if they really aren't and have NO chance of making top cut every time, is important to the growth of the game in my opinion.

Pokemon is doing this, in a different way - by inventing decks like Ninetales/Amoonguss and Garchomp/Altaria that just don't work here, but have enough competitive merit that they SEEM like they SHOULD, and you will certainly win a game or two with them. But the primary Pokemon interest just doesn't seem to be in providing a competitive card game. Our precon decks are just awful, and that seems really telling to me that they don't care for beginners that much. Hopefully that makes sense.

I may not be making my point well enough. So, I'll TL;DR...

1) People should be able to be comfortable playing cool cards that don't fit into the meta, and feel comfortable that they will get to do something cool in the game, even if they realistically have no shot of winning said game.

2) 80% of the Meta right now (rough guesstimate based on the graphs I've seen floating around) is Big Basic with acceleration of some sort. If this is not accurate, let me know, but when 80% of the format is the same, people tend to believe the format is either stale, boring, bad, etc.

1. I don't mind agreeing with this. It is awkward going into tournaments and seeing EVERYONE playing meta decks, regardless of their skill or investment in the game.

2. You are misclassifying 80% of the format. They are all centered around Basic Pokemon as attackers, but that does not make them the same deck, nor does that make the selection of decks stale or boring. That is poor perception on the part of the player.

 

[baby mario]

Now, as far as the comment regarding properly good rogues, I think there is a difference between "good" and "psuedo-good." I can't pick up some random stage 2 and honestly believe that I have any chance of even taking a prize. I think that creating a format where you can reasonably play a rogue deck and expect to not just get blown all over the place is something that is important.

This has not been the case in Pokemon since it became widely known that Haymaker decks were better than Charizard decks (i.e: fairly soon after Base Set was released). Ironically, a game where 'random Stage 2s' are viable would be a nightmare for rogue decks, as their success comes from responding to a clearly defined metagame.

For example, in Magic the Gathering I can play the best deck in the format and compete. I can also pick some cool cards that I want to play, and reasonably expect to play those cards in the game, and have them do something in the game. I probably wont win, even a single match, but I'm going to be able to feel as though I could win. I get the feeling that a win is possible if only I had been able to finish my sweet combo in time, but alas, I didn't. I still got to play some sweet card that my opponent who's playing the best deck in the format has never seen before.

Can't respond to this as I know nothing about the game, but it seems very subjective. In MTG you 'feel' as if you could win even when you can't, but Pokemon fails to give you that illusion?

In pokemon, chances are VERY likely if I play some cool card against one of the big five, that I will never actually get to evolve into that pokemon and use its attack. Man I want to play Glaceon and feel like I have a chance, but even if I evolve into my Glaceon, I'm probably just going to get donked and I wont even get an attack. Worse, I spent a turn evolving my Eevee and they just play some stupid big basic pokemon and OHKO me every time...

Now, I'm not calling for every card to be competitive. However, people should be able to have the notion that they can play these sweet, underpowered, not good cards and not just get OHKO every time. So, if these big basics either did 50-70 damage fully charged, or only had 120-140 HP, I would be able to play these cool stage 2's and HAVE the feeling that I'm competing. Giving people the ability to believe they are competing, even if they really aren't and have NO chance of making top cut every time, is important to the growth of the game in my opinion.

Again, it's down to 'feelings' which are quite difficult to discuss as they vary between players. Actually there are plenty of decks in Pokemon that are not top tier but are capable of sneaking wins here and there (even against the big decks). It's just that for obvious reasons hardly anyone plays them.

1) People should be able to be comfortable playing cool cards that don't fit into the meta, and feel comfortable that they will get to do something cool in the game, even if they realistically have no shot of winning said game.

Again, feelings. It's all so vague . . . 'do something cool', it's going to mean different things to different people.

2) 80% of the Meta right now (rough guesstimate based on the graphs I've seen floating around) is Big Basic with acceleration of some sort. If this is not accurate, let me know, but when 80% of the format is the same, people tend to believe the format is either stale, boring, bad, etc.

'Big Basic with acceleration' is very reductive. Speed Darkrai plays very differently to Hydreigon, which plays very differently to Eels, which plays very differently to Blastoise, which plays very differently to Ho-oh.

 

[psychup2034]

2) 80% of the Meta right now (rough guesstimate based on the graphs I've seen floating around) is Big Basic with acceleration of some sort. If this is not accurate, let me know, but when 80% of the format is the same, people tend to believe the format is either stale, boring, bad, etc.

100% of the Meta right now contains Pokemon cards. If this is not accurate, let me know.

It's almost as ridiculous to lump all big basic Pokemon together as it is to lump all Pokemon together. The big basics in this format are as balanced as ever. There isn't really one big basic Pokemon that's running away with the format. This format is quite balanced and has a ton of skill-based games.

Now, if you'd rather have a format were every Magnezone list runs 56 of the same cards and every Chandelure list runs 56 of the same cards, that's fine as well. This format emphasizes deckbuilding, because the skeletons of the big basic lists run from 50-54 cards. It's much harder to netdeck and be successful this format, because metagaming is so important. Do you run more Enhanced Hammers? Do you save those spots for Max Potion? Do you run Tropical Beach? Do you run Shaymin EX to counter Keldeo EX? Do you run 2 Sigilyphs?

Last year during Cities, Chandelure/Vileplume was a very popular deck. You really can't screw up a Chandelure/Vileplume list. Most lists shared 54-57 cards, and once one list is posted on the internet, everyone has close to the best list. That's definitely not the case this year. I've seen some terrible big basic lists posted on sites like SixPrizes, because it takes skill to build decks in this format.

For example, Kyle S. and Dylan B. (two of the best players in the U.S.) each contribute 3 of the 6 total wins by Ho-oh EX-based decks this year. Their Ho-oh EX lists are drastically different from other (worse) lists that I've seen floating around the internet. I've heard people complain that they can't get their Ho-oh lists to work, and that they don't know how Kyle/Dylan do it. (This answer is that Kyle/Dylan are world-class deck builders, and those people trying to imitate are not.) It took me 2 weeks to work out my Ho-oh list, and I doubt it's as good as Dylan's list. This is a format where skilled deck builders can really thrive.

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

Now, as far as the comment regarding properly good rogues, I think there is a difference between "good" and "psuedo-good." I can't pick up some random stage 2 and honestly believe that I have any chance of even taking a prize. I think that creating a format where you can reasonably play a rogue deck and expect to not just get blown all over the place is something that is important.

I actually get where you're coming from, the last time I think this was possible was D&P. As long as something wasn't complete junk you could pick a rare and attempt to build around it and do at least ok. The difference between the ok and the awesome cards was a little smaller, sometimes even subtle. Like, the 3 D&P starters were all decent, it turned out Empoleon was the best of the 3... but you wouldn't get curb stomped if you tried playing one of the other 2. I think the original ex series was even more like this. Of course in the top tournaments there'd be a few tier 1 decks that had proven themselves and the odd few different rogue decks (not just rogue builds, complete decks), but at League you'd see all sorts of things and plenty of them would be doing fine with all 3 stages of Pokemon, ex and normal, all making significant appearances!

People keep saying, "but the B&W legendary Pokemon ARE balanced, look there's 5 or so different ones all in the top tier". Well yeh, they're balanced with each other, but totally overpowered otherwise. The meta may have a "balance" but the design itself is poor. To go back the the old Magic analogies, it'd make no sense if they just started printing 5/5s at 1 Mana... and 5/5s at 5 Mana. One requires less resources to use and so of course shouldn't be as good... that's basic game design. The players could still play such a game and grind a "balanced" meta out of it just using the new 1 mana guys (and binning 90% of other creatures, sound familiar?) but I think most Magic players would quit in such a situation just in disgust of the poor design involved. Just say we went to B+W on as soon as it came out (i.e. no Primes around) I think Reshiram and Zekrom would have been just fine as EXs compared to the rest of the game, perhaps +10hp and attack and you're good to go.

Zekrom gets used as an ex in the 150 format and I still groan whenever it hits the table...

 

[vaporeon]

I'm going to defend Gamester2488 for a bit because we share similar views. There are a TON of stage 2 Pokemon that personally interest me. Just to name a few; Luxray from NDX. I really love this card. There is nothing wrong with this. 60 damage and 20 damage snipe. 140 HP and the ability to be used with Eeels. I would say it would be a solid contender if the format did not have overpowered basic. Next Pokemon is Scolipede from BC. Again, this card does everything right. 150 HP keeps it in the battle, a ability for auto poison and a attack that works with its ability but Mewtwo EX ruins it.

I can go on and on with the list but the trainer cards being made are made for basic Pokemon and makes them more powerful. The game is suffering from balancing issues and the overpowered basics and overpowered trainer cards are causing it. Again I know its something people dont want but Pokemon needs a ban/restriction list. This way we wont have a need or use for ace spec cards.

 

[FirestormXVI]

Please don't mix up what Pokemon needs with what you want.

 

[Kayle]

I'm going to defend Gamester2488 for a bit because we share similar views. There are a TON of stage 2 Pokemon that personally interest me. Just to name a few; Luxray from NDX. I really love this card. There is nothing wrong with this. 60 damage and 20 damage snipe.

Actually that 20 is to one of your own, so it's 60 with an irritating drawback. That's actually not very good, nor is its next attack, which is 3 energy for 20 more damage and a potential energy discard. I don't know what kind of format would find this card as being competitive, but unless it involved a convoluted series of cards that empowered or accelerated Lightning Pokemon with the requirement of having damage placed on them, I don't think I'd like that format.

Next Pokemon is Scolipede from BC. Again, this card does everything right. 150 HP keeps it in the battle, a ability for auto poison and a attack that works with its ability but Mewtwo EX ruins it.

If it wasn't Mewtwo EX, it would be something else - how about the 4 energy cost for 80 without having already poisoned the enemy somehow, or the fact that 120 isn't really an impressive number in this format (though admittedly them hitting into you, taking 10, and then eating a Venoshock actually makes for 140, which is much better). Whether or not it was Big Basics doing it, I think most people would rather play a Pokemon with greater mobility (dat retreat cost) and a lower energy requirement to do a consistent 90 or 80 more quickly and easily.

I can go on and on with the list but the trainer cards being made are made for basic Pokemon and makes them more powerful. The game is suffering from balancing issues and the overpowered basics and overpowered trainer cards are causing it. Again I know its something people dont want but Pokemon needs a ban/restriction list. This way we wont have a need or use for ace spec cards.

I know of two cards "made" for Basics: Eviolite, and Skyarrow. The former has a countercard: Tool Scrapper. The latter is countered by its own mechanic; play a counterstadium such as Aspertia, Virbank, Tropical Beach (which arguably benefits evolutions more), Pokemon Center, or Twist Mountain.

Catcher isn't made for basics. Evolution decks would abuse it just as much as basics do. Catcher in an Evolution-heavy format would result in extremely one-sided games where the first player to get evolutions out doing damage can catcher and prevent the other from setting up at all.

I don't know what else you consider to be "for" basic pokemon, since no other card comes to mind as having "basic" in the effect description. You can Dark Patch to an evolution, you can search Evolutions with most search cards (including Level Ball!), you can pluspower evolutions, PHB has no requirement of Basics, Colress has no requirement of Basics...

And who says we don't need or like Ace Specs?

 

[vaporeon]

Actually that 20 is to one of your own, so it's 60 with an irritating drawback. That's actually not very good, nor is its next attack, which is 3 energy for 20 more damage and a potential energy discard. I don't know what kind of format would find this card as being competitive, but unless it involved a convoluted series of cards that empowered or accelerated Lightning Pokemon with the requirement of having damage placed on them, I don't think I'd like that format.



If it wasn't Mewtwo EX, it would be something else - how about the 4 energy cost for 80 without having already poisoned the enemy somehow, or the fact that 120 isn't really an impressive number in this format (though admittedly them hitting into you, taking 10, and then eating a Venoshock actually makes for 140, which is much better). Whether or not it was Big Basics doing it, I think most people would rather play a Pokemon with greater mobility (dat retreat cost) and a lower energy requirement to do a consistent 90 or 80 more quickly and easily.



I know of two cards "made" for Basics: Eviolite, and Skyarrow. The former has a countercard: Tool Scrapper. The latter is countered by its own mechanic; play a counterstadium such as Aspertia, Virbank, Tropical Beach (which arguably benefits evolutions more), Pokemon Center, or Twist Mountain.

Catcher isn't made for basics. Evolution decks would abuse it just as much as basics do. Catcher in an Evolution-heavy format would result in extremely one-sided games where the first player to get evolutions out doing damage can catcher and prevent the other from setting up at all.

I don't know what else you consider to be "for" basic pokemon, since no other card comes to mind as having "basic" in the effect description. You can Dark Patch to an evolution, you can search Evolutions with most search cards (including Level Ball!), you can pluspower evolutions, PHB has no requirement of Basics, Colress has no requirement of Basics...

And who says we don't need or like Ace Specs?

Seems I read Luxray wrong. What I mean by made for basic is they are more useful in big basic decks because evolution decks needs to run more cards for their own engine while big bacis they can run more trainers then you can.

On Scolipede, 120 damage is good damage when every other stage 2 in the format have at least 140. its those big basics you defend that make this 120 damage seem weak. The attack cost is big but works well with its whole evolution line. You can even play it with Gardevoir to reduce that cost a lot. Like you said, the attack does 140 after damage from poison is factored it. It could hit 160 with the gym card next set. Everything else on the card is not a hazard. The retreat cost is huge and I agree with that but its going to be your attacker so it getting stuck active are low. Its not like Klingklang who does noting but move energy or Terrakion who you sat down 1 turn early. You'll be attacking with Scolipede. If one gets stuck at gets attacked, the pokemon attacking it gets poisoned.

To be clear, I never said people dont need or like them. I was saying, with a ban list or restriction list, the game has no need of cards like ace specs.

 

[psychup2034]

On Scolipede, 120 damage is good damage when every other stage 2 in the format have at least 140. its those big basics you defend that make this 120 damage seem weak. The attack cost is big but works well with its whole evolution line. You can even play it with Gardevoir to reduce that cost a lot. Like you said, the attack does 140 after damage from poison is factored it. It could hit 160 with the gym card next set.

Scolipede wouldn't be useful even if EXs were banned. It's a horrible card.

 

[vaporeon]

Scolipede wouldn't be useful even if EXs were banned. It's a horrible card.

Why would it be a horrible card? Is it because you can't find a way to play it? It's a card that has great potential.

 

[bullados]

Scolipede wouldn't be useful even if EXs were banned. It's a horrible card.

Before EXs, I took an EP/DP Scol deck in TCGO to about an 80% win rate. The deck was built 100% out of PCD cards. Granted, it's TCGO, but that's pretty darn good for a card that "wouldn't be useful", dontcha think?

 

[psychup2034]

Why would it be a horrible card? Is it because you can't find a way to play it? It's a card that has great potential.

Retreat cost and expense of attack. OHKOed by Meloetta for 1 energy once powered up. It's a horrible card because its attributes are bad. It's certainly not because I can't find a way to play it.

"Has great potential" is just another way to say that a card sucks.

 

[Kayle]

To be clear, I never said people dont need or like them. I was saying, with a ban list or restriction list, the game has no need of cards like ace specs.

Okay, fine, but my point was, why is that a point in your favor?

@Bullados, I think Psychup has a little bit more strict a definition of "good" than we might be thinking for this particular conversation. Scolipede is "maybe could be a fun deck that wins a couple games" material, but for him (and me to some extent) that doesn't make it "good", and it wouldn't be "good" if EXs were removed.

 

[psychup2034]

Before EXs, I took an EP/DP Scol deck in TCGO to about an 80% win rate. The deck was built 100% out of PCD cards. Granted, it's TCGO, but that's pretty darn good for a card that "wouldn't be useful", dontcha think?

Knowing the wide variance in skill among TCGO players, and knowing the constraints to deck quality that resulted by card distribution, I would take any testing results from TCGO (during the time period you're talking about) with a large grain of salt.

---------- Post added 12/24/2012 at 04:45 PM ----------

To be clear, I never said people dont need or like them. I was saying, with a ban list or restriction list, the game has no need of cards like ace specs.

The Ace Spec mechanic is TPCI's way of implementing a restricted list into the Pokemon TCG... Either they can have a list of cards that they say "you can only play 1 of any of these cards in your deck," or they could print it on the card itself. They chose to print it on the card itself, which was a great decision.

Compared to the Ace Spec mechanic bring printed on the card itself, a restricted list is just bad. It's confusing and unnecessary.