Issues Facing the TCG

[Porii Sames]

Um, no. They made Call energy for a reason.

If you don't want to get donked, play Calls, play Tombs, play Vilegar, play Dchomp, play no Q, whatever.

They are seriously not that hard to avoid. Yes, I know that even if you play Vilegar w/ 2-2 DGX and 4 Calls w/ no Unown Q you may still get donked; but it's a lot harder than getting doked if you just ran the standard build. Plus, Calls are a pretty universal card; not getting donked is just iciing on the kace.

 

[Kayle]

If you don't want to get donked, play Calls, play Tombs, play Vilegar, play Dchomp, play no Q, whatever.

It's like you completely ignored my post! The fact that you are telling people they have to play Vilegar (Dchomp is still perfectly donkable, by the way) is exactly the problem. It's damaging the format by forcing people to either take these terrible, no-fun-at-all turn one wins, or to play a single deck that just happens to be good at avoiding those wins (some of the time).

They are seriously not that hard to avoid. Yes, I know that even if you play Vilegar w/ 2-2 DGX and 4 Calls w/ no Unown Q you may still get donked; but it's a lot harder than getting doked if you just ran the standard build. Plus, Calls are a pretty universal card; not getting donked is just iciing on the kace.

I can think of six good decks in the format right now and three of them, to my knowledge, usually don't run call: Gyarados, Machamp, Sableye. Not exactly universal.

I really have no idea what you are trying to say here, or what you really think. You have been running Beedrill G as a basically donk-oriented deck since you came here, and have happily touted its success in your metagame (which is not that great, but hey, it works so whatevs). So yeah, I can see you defending donks, but... part of your defense is, "donks can easily be avoided." If they can be avoided so easily...... why are you running Beedrill, and why is it that you think it does well? You obviously can't be running Beedrill for fun (unless you are a self-centered ...) because getting donked is no fun at all, so you must think it's competitively strong... but donks can be easily avoided?

I just don't get it.

 

[The Gorn]

But are these donk deckers really winning tournaments?

I think these decks are by their very nature self-limiting.

 

[Porii Sames]

I'm not saying people should play Vilegar; they can just use that as a safer alternative if they are that scared about being donked. Besides, it's a metagame choice. If your area is filled with Uxie Donk or Beedrill G; then you probably want to stop playing Luxpluff (example) and start playing Plumepluff or just Vilegar. It's like saying that you should be forced to play Gyarados or Donphan if Machamp is big in your metagame. It's the same with donks; more specifically donk decks.

I said it's a pretty universal card; Luxchomp, BLG, sometimes Vilegar, and other rogue decks run it too. Those aformentinoed decks can run it if they choose.

Beedrill G is moderately successful, but it works. Beedrill G does decently for a card that only does 10 for 1 because people don't run Calls/Spiritomb against me; and even if they do, I still have a chance to beat them (take me winning vs. Plumepluff for example).

For example, Machamp, in general, does badly against Gyarados. But you may still run it because Luxchomp in the area is scaring off Gyarados and you think that Machamp would be a good choice against your metagame.

 

[NoPoke]

@The Gorn: Kingdra definitely won several tournaments.

 

[Porii Sames]

But are these donk deckers really winning tournaments?

I think these decks are by their very nature self-limiting.

Yes, they are. In fact, could I have not been rules-lawyered in my last tournament, I could've gotten to T2 and possibly won since I beat that player earlier and I had a favorable matchup against his deck (Gyarados). Oh well.

But they are certainly viable.

 

[Yoshi-]

So you complain that someone rules lawyers against you if you plan on koing him on the first turn?! Yeah...

The issue is that you see donk as something like a metagame choice and everyone else thinks donk is something, well...
pretty much was jimmy wrote, although thats still a pretty nice description...

 

[Porii Sames]

I'm just kinda frustrated with it, but yeah.

I don't really understand the rest of your post.

 

[Kayle]

I'm not saying people should play Vilegar; they can just use that as a safer alternative if they are that scared about being donked. Besides, it's a metagame choice. If your area is filled with Uxie Donk or Beedrill G; then you probably want to stop playing Luxpluff (example) and start playing Plumepluff or just Vilegar. It's like saying that you should be forced to play Gyarados or Donphan if Machamp is big in your metagame. It's the same with donks; more specifically donk decks.

(Who plays jumpluff anymore, for serious? )

I can go into a metagame of Machamp with Luxchomp and do well. I have done it before.

I can not go into a metagame of Shuppet with Luxchomp and do well.

Donks shut other decks down by preventing the game from ever even starting. It's not a metagame issue when there are no decks that can reliably stand up to it.

I said it's a pretty universal card; Luxchomp, BLG, sometimes Vilegar, and other rogue decks run it too. Those aformentinoed decks can run it if they choose.

Not really: Sableye doesn't have room, there would be zero point in Gyarados, and Machamp needs the fighting for Take Out. They would if they could, that's the thing. When half of the serious metagame doesn't run a card, it stops being universal. Great obviously, but not universal.

Beedrill G is moderately successful, but it works.

I... what? What am I supposed to get out of this sentence? "it works" - so it does good? "But" it works? It's moderately successful, but it does good? What? Make up your mind. Is it good or not.

Beedrill G does decently for a card that only does 10 for 1

Don't even lie, it does 40. <<

because people don't run Calls/Spiritomb against me; and even if they do, I still have a chance to beat them (take me winning vs. Plumepluff for example).

And yet you just told me that if people want to avoid getting donked they should just run Vilegar... but Vilegar doesn't even have a solid shot against you... which was my point to begin with...

For example, Machamp, in general, does badly against Gyarados. But you may still run it because Luxchomp in the area is scaring off Gyarados and you think that Machamp would be a good choice against your metagame.

Well, yes, obviously. I have no idea what this has to do with Shuppet/Beedrill/Uxie, though. I can take Beedrill into an area that plays Luxchomp, Gyarados, AND Machamp. AND Sableye. AND Dialga! Why? Because I don't care what my opponent plays. They start with one, MAYBE two Pokemon. I can end the game on my first turn with trainers. Doesn't matter what those Pokemon were, I can KO them.

I don't think you see the basis of this argument.

I suppose I should be acknowledging that Uxie/Beedrill/donkwhatever.dec is not BDIF by a stretch, and that's for numerous reasons - it has trouble if it doesn't go second, it DOES sometimes hit those Tomb/Call/Gastly/Spray starts, etc, etc. But they remain a pretty solid gameplay option. The fact that such an option exists, one that isn't fun to play against at all and resolves games without allowing the opponent to take their turn, is the issue. If it was just this silly thing that never worked, then yeah, it can be a silly thing that doesn't work, but the fact that we are even having to discuss how Beedrill or Shuppet actually matters in a tournament proves that the problem exists.

I have nothing against new decks, but I have a lot against donk decks.

 

[Cyrus]

It's like you completely ignored my post! The fact that you are telling people they have to play Vilegar (Dchomp is still perfectly donkable, by the way) is exactly the problem. It's damaging the format by forcing people to either take these terrible, no-fun-at-all turn one wins, or to play a single deck that just happens to be good at avoiding those wins (some of the time).

And it looks like you completely ignored his post. He offered a VARIETY of solutions to the problem which INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, Vilegar. Learn to read before you start insinuating things about people.

Anyways, donks are at their highest, but that isn't the biggest problem about the metagame so much as how the format has developed. Don't want to lose against a Mewtwo with SP? Run Dialga or a counter. Don't want to lose against SP? Shut off their Trainers!

Rather than printing cards that directly harm a strategy, why not just release more diverse, balanced strategies and ideas? Somewhere along the line, they made a mistake by fighting fire with magma.

 

[nnaann]

I really like the post, and definately agree with it.

Donks aren't good, period. Just because Uxie Donk hasn't won the most CCs, doesn't mean it can't win against someone in swiss and deny them the chance to top cut. I think that they're realised this problem, and are trying to correct it with Black and White.

The change from the 4 prize rule is awful. In testing, it's so easy with a fast deck to take it to Sudden Death at worst and be able to win that - I think POP need to change it back ASAP.

 

[Kayle]

And it looks like you completely ignored his post. He offered a VARIETY of solutions to the problem which INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, Vilegar. Learn to read before you start insinuating things about people.

I've spent the last several posts, or sections thereof, pointing out ways that his "solutions" are not viable in decks outside of Vilegar anyway, actually.

 

[iPlaySP]

Would you guys reckon this TCG is worth getting into? It seems like it's dying.

 

[nnaann]

Would you guys reckon this TCG is worth getting into? It seems like it's dying.

It's actually growing pretty quickly in numbers. I know a couple of years back, there was a 30% increase in attendances for some annual tournaments.

This thread does point out some problems with the game at the moment, but overall it's a great TCG to get into and alot of fun.

 

[The Gorn]

Would you guys reckon this TCG is worth getting into? It seems like it's dying.

How many people would have to be at the US Nationals to make you think it isn't dying?

 

[iPlaySP]

How many people would have to be at the US Nationals to make you think it isn't dying?

Uhhh, well I'm sure Nationals and Worlds are okay; but no one seems to go to league. More often that not, in my area (Brooklyn, New York) there is league only once a week with 20 people max.

 

[Raen]

Uhhh, well I'm sure Nationals and Worlds are okay; but no one seems to go to league. More often that not, in my area (Brooklyn, New York) there is league only once a week with 20 people max.

Well, then that just means the league in your area doesn't get a lot of players. Looking at the overall health of the game is more important than just individual leagues.

I must also not that not all competitive players play in leagues.

 

[bullados]

It's actually growing pretty quickly in numbers. I know a couple of years back, there was a 30% increase in attendances for some annual tournaments.

Up until last year, at events that remained relatively stable in terms of both time and location (States, Regionals, Nationals), there was fairly consistent 30% growth year-by-year every year since 2004. That isn't an increase of 30% compared to 2004 numbers. That's 30% growth over the previous year. Look up Compounding Interest to understand just how remarkable that kind of growth is.

Last year, attendance basically remained constant through both States and Regionals, while US Nationals increased by about 300 players over the year before. That's during the biggest recession period since at least the 80s (and probably since the 30s).

Given the support that this game has on a competitive level, the new and improved support at the local level, and the insistance on SOTG at every level, I don't see attendance dropping this year. I can only see it increasing regardless of the economic situation (outside of the 1930s), and increasing *more* as the economy improves.

 

[SLOW DECK]

I still think the biggest DOWNER to the game is the fact that NEW cards are NOT competitive with SP pokemon, and the SP Cyrus Engine. SERIOUSLY, playing with SP decks is like cheering for the New York Yankee's. Not hard.
.
Pokemon want to Sell Cards, why did the LEAVE SP legal in the FORMAT. My son and I don't play SP pokemon. We have the cards, we have the skills, but what fun is it. I have gone to one Cities this year...... I think I am tired of SP decks, and the lack of originality in the format.

 

[Porii Sames]

(Who plays jumpluff anymore, for serious? )
It is kinda popular here; seen a few. That was just an example
I can go into a metagame of Machamp with Luxchomp and do well. I have done it before.

I can not go into a metagame of Shuppet with Luxchomp and do well.
Again, just an example
Donks shut other decks down by preventing the game from ever even starting. It's not a metagame issue when there are no decks that can reliably stand up to it.

All right, let's be honest. Have you ever been donked when playing Vilegar with Calls before? Maybe once or twice by Sableye; but it's unlikely. Like, what if, every time you played BLG, you'd have all your Blazikens, Luxrays, and Garchomps prized. You have little shot of winning now; but that's just luck. It's just luck that you didn't have a double Tomb start when I Cycloned your Tomb awa. It's unlucky that you missed that SSU on that Uxie that may have gotten you a collector. Donks are DEPENDENT on luck. I'm a donk.dec player; I would know. You have to be pretty darn lucky; and know when to go for the donk and when not to when playing a donk deck.

Not really: Sableye doesn't have room, there would be zero point in Gyarados, and Machamp needs the fighting for Take Out. They would if they could, that's the thing. When half of the serious metagame doesn't run a card, it stops being universal. Great obviously, but not universal.

OK, maybe I stretched it a bit. Machamp, imo, can use it better tho. Just saying.

I... what? What am I supposed to get out of this sentence? "it works" - so it does good? "But" it works? It's moderately successful, but it does good? What? Make up your mind. Is it good or not.

lol sorry, I grammar failed :lol:. My bad. It is good when it works (by sheer speed and overpowerment).

Don't even lie, it does 40. <<

When you put it down...

And yet you just told me that if people want to avoid getting donked they should just run Vilegar... but Vilegar doesn't even have a solid shot against you... which was my point to begin with...

What is "solid"? Vilegar has a VERY favorable Beedrill G matchup (it's hard even IF you know what you're doing and your opponent misplays) but, let's be honest, it's pretty hard for me to donk a Vilegar; at least with Beedrill G. If you play Gyarados and 4 Magikarps/Azelf get prized, then you're probably gonna lose. Have you played the Beedrill/Vilegar matchup? It's a pain; I don't even like playtesting it. They have a good shot if they don't get donked. Yes, they MAY get donked, but this is rare.

Well, yes, obviously. I have no idea what this has to do with Shuppet/Beedrill/Uxie, though. I can take Beedrill into an area that plays Luxchomp, Gyarados, AND Machamp. AND Sableye. AND Dialga! Why? Because I don't care what my opponent plays. They start with one, MAYBE two Pokemon. I can end the game on my first turn with trainers. Doesn't matter what those Pokemon were, I can KO them.

It's essentially saying that you may have to play different stuff depending on the decks in your meta. Just adapt and play the correct build/deck.

I don't think you see the basis of this argument.

Mmkay

I suppose I should be acknowledging that Uxie/Beedrill/donkwhatever.dec is not BDIF by a stretch, and that's for numerous reasons - it has trouble if it doesn't go second, it DOES sometimes hit those Tomb/Call/Gastly/Spray starts, etc, etc. But they remain a pretty solid gameplay option. The fact that such an option exists, one that isn't fun to play against at all and resolves games without allowing the opponent to take their turn, is the issue. If it was just this silly thing that never worked, then yeah, it can be a silly thing that doesn't work, but the fact that we are even having to discuss how Beedrill or Shuppet actually matters in a tournament proves that the problem exists.

So, are you saying that Beedrill G is viable only because it donks? I have played 15 matches this season. Guess how many were donks. Guess. 1 was. ONE GAME. 1/15 of my games were donks. What were my other wins? Sheer outspeeding and overpowering.

I have nothing against new decks, but I have a lot against donk decks.

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