Judge support being cut by Nintendo?

[BJJ763]

We haven't handled match slips for quite some time now - i found that as i was walking a slip up, someone at the other end of the room had their hand raised. SO i had players take "victory walk" and bring their slips up (i've also started having people get up from their chair, spin around, give the "V for victory" sign, and say "I won" in an Ash Ketchem voice). At our Regionals we had some volunteers be slip runners.

 

[beatlerat]

This is a very sore subject with PTOs / TOs because there are players (including Professors) that DEMAND a lot of support for their time.

I have never heard of judges that demanded a lot of support for anything. i have heard of PTOs promising a certain amount of support, then pulling the support right before the tournament.

I want to give someone fair compensation for what is usually a full, hard day's work.
I'm trying to figure out alternate compensation that also makes economic sense for me.
It's going to be tough with some locations.

I agree. Maybe it is better that POP/PUI spend moneys here instead of some of the prize support doled out later. I think the Hawaii thing just made everything a little more expensive this year.

But, I agree w/ 'Pop. If someone works for/with you, they ought to get something. We PTOs have to figure that one out on our own.

I am really glad that some PTO's feel this way. It is better for me to know that my PTO WANTS to give out support for his people's hard work and long days, instead of not caring either way.
Most of us give our time every week for our leagues, for me 4 1/2 hours every week.
It used to be nice to get rewards for judging at the local level and events. I stopped judging this year because the compensation also stopped. That was a personal decision, but I hate to hear that they are pulling the plug on all support. I hope that POP/PUI takes a good look at this. From what I have seen at most tournaments, next to the PTO, it is the judges that are the backbones to good tournaments, and everyone will always need good judges. What better place to recruit the new judges than local tourneys?
I am not saying that compensation be huge, but something should be left in there for those who help, especially those with the 100+ tourneys that run all day. Before, I never realized that all support was the same for all areas. Otherwise, I would have (and still do) supported a plan for PTOs that had the most people (regular attendance at tourneys), get the most support (compensation) for their judges.
I hope it is not true, but to end judge support for good can't be healthy for the game.

 

[dld4a]

Re: "Greedy Judges"

I volunteer quite a bit for school events and functions and scouting. I never get, not expect, any compensation for any of those things. But those are non-profit endeavors.

Pokemon TCG, however, is not a non-profit endeavor.
Sure some events and local tourneys, and all of league for that matter, are run "non-profit", however, the enterprise known as "Pokemon TCG" is in fact a business and from what I see, it's a business that makes a fair amount of money.

I know what your saying Pop, but ... Leagues are not non-profit. And I'm not talking about charging a small amount to attend (I believe it's still O.K. to do that), because I/my store owners have never done that. My one league is however the best money raiser for that store, because it brings so many people into the store. So much so that when he goes out of business at the end of the month he is going to continue holding league at the park district. I do profit from my leagues myself, but only in playing time and professor points. That's enough for me to keep doing it.

 

[Team Cook]

It used to be nice to get rewards for judging at the local level and events. I stopped judging this year because the compensation also stopped.

This is your quote from November 2006 (on the Gym) about fair judge support:

"I probably wouldn't work a tourney for free. I might, but would rather play for 18 packs. I would definetly help/judge for a box. Simple as that."

Judge compensation hasn't been stopped in your area. You stopped judging this year because you felt you weren't getting enough compensation.

 

[evil psyduck]

Anyone judging just to get the judge support is judging for the wrong reason. Judge because you want to help not to see how much you can get out of it. I know if i was a TO and that is all someone wanted to judge for i would not have them as a judge.

" Ask not what the game can do for you. Ask what you can do for the game"

 

[meganium45]

MW Regionals had 2 Judges for each age division, plus two "roaming" judges, one person on the computer, one guy just going whatever needed, one person talking care of "league", and two PTOs experienced as Judges. And I still thought we were more than a little understaffed...

Hmmm...ryan...never brought that to me first...interesting.

We were busy at one of the biggest Regionals, and with the fireworks that went off, we were pressed at times, but I think we were fully staffed, and no area was under represented.

We had a staff of 15 people. It was great, including Camille and myself.

3 Division HJs, 2 support judges in each division, 1 compu god, 1 runner, 2 extra judges, side events coordinator/cake GODDESS!, Art Inspiration guru!

With so much going on...we needed the people in every area.

I cannot imagine a Regional with less than 10 on staff. (Insanity factor)

Vince

 

[bullados]

*open mouth, insert foot*

When I say "understaffed", I mean I kinda wanted to get those side events that you had planned going. I understand that even the best laid plans can sometimes go awry. For the main event, there was plenty of staff, I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression about that. Camille also had enough staff for States in the area, but couldn't find the staff to run sides. "Understaffed", to me at least, means that there was not enough to do everything that was planned, not that there wasn't enough for the basics. "Woefully understaffed" would mean that there wasn't enough for even the basics. There was plenty for the basics, and the concurrent events going on were also nicely staffed. That was more an expression of disappointment at not getting side events at a large event that I was helping out on (again). Again, I'm sorry if I came accross wrong in that particular regard.

 

[meganium45]

I am beginning to think side events, even those intended, are not viable on an event day as long as a Regionals turns out to be.

By the cut, the staff, and the players are beginning to be wiped out.

Don't worry Ryan...I am just teasing with my "tell me first" comment. You were a great staff member, and will be a part of any large event I am running in the area.

Vince

 

[beatlerat]

This is your quote from November 2006 (on the Gym) about fair judge support:

"I probably wouldn't work a tourney for free. I might, but would rather play for 18 packs. I would definetly help/judge for a box. Simple as that."

Judge compensation hasn't been stopped in your area. You stopped judging this year because you felt you weren't getting enough compensation.

Sort of taken out of context, and I don't want this to get personal. I stopped because I was lied to. Pokemon does not rule my life any more and I don't NEED to judge for whatever the compensation. It is just not worth my time, the hassle, and the lip I take from PTO's who could care less about who helps them judge tournaments.

Back to topic
I really feel for all of those fine volunteers that still take the time to judge and help at tourneys, sometimes all day in an environment that is sometimes hostile (ask Sniper), and never complain, do their work diligently, whether compensated or not, and whether they want to be compensated or not, and at the same time I am thankful of the job they are doing, and understand how difficult it can really be because I have been there, done that, in the worst of situations.
Regardless of what anyone else might think on this forum, I believe that judges should be compensated (through POP/PUI and not the TO/PTO), and if they plan on cutting out perks for judges, I think it is a mistake. My final word on judge's compensation. I am certain I won't be receiving any soon.
Keith

 

[secretsof2113]

I started judging at a cities tournament. It was a very small one (14 ish players total) so of course, I was the only judge, but it was a good way to get my feet wet. I've never had a problem with compensation. If they did cut judge support, I would still do it. I love the game, and I like most of the people I'm around while there. I always feel that I am compensated somehow otherwise (free lunch, getting to hang out with some awesome people), and on top of that, my PTO is pretty awesome. It's just nice to be able to give back to the game after so many years.

 

[butterfly719]

Mmm..I guess I'll voice my opinion on the subject now...

I share the opinion that some have mentioned here of kind of expecting a moderate compensation for the work you do. I mean it is work in most cases, especially if you are understaffed. Everyone puts in atleast a good 8 hour day. Of course, I would never actually demand compensation, especially not from my TO. However, I can't agree with Nintendo's/PUI/POP/whoever it was decision to cut it. It should be the company's job to provide this, not my TO's.

When it comes down to it, we (the judges) are working for Nintendo. Yes, the TO might sometimes make a decent amount of money off running the tourney, but they are essentially working to promote the game (just as we do), whereby Nintendo/PUI profits the greatest from the work via card sales. Nintendo makes enough money where providing a couple boxes for judge support per tournament should not be a big deal.

I know our forum as a whole tends to complain a lot, but it seems like the complaints drawn on Nintendo's decisions are just racking up now. I hate to be a complainer too, but I see a pattern developing here that isn't looking good. I mean, a lot of people were unhappy when prize support was cut from the Prereleases and everyone started receiving the same thing, regardless of how they did during the tourney. Boxtoppers have disappeared from boxes now. The announcement a few months back about the increase of Prerelease prices to $25 per person, per tourney started a big discussion. And now, judge support has gone bye-bye from Prereleases as well. It's a lot of small stuff, but it all adds up.

A lot of judges I know have kids who play in the prereleases. So they judge and pay for their kids to play. Typically, they have 2 kids or more. So based on 2 kids, that's $50 for the prerelease, + another $50 for the side event run after the prerelease. Gas prices have also increased substantially recently, meaning a greater cost in transportation to travel to the event. So now the judge puts in a full 8 hour day, shells out $100 for tourney fees (which could just be used to buy a complete box) + more for lunch/gas/etc. and now on top of it, isn't going to get their box for judge support to help recoup some of what they spent (in both money and time)? Or in a different scenario, if the judge has been dropped from the tourney do you really think they are still going to pay the money to drive all that way and now spend more than they originally would have had to? I see attendence dropping instead...


Again, I'm not really trying to attack Nintendo/PUI/POP, but looking at this from a practical standpoint, I can't see how this is going to improve or even maintain anything. I understand the amount of money they've spent making Worlds this year exceptional and I am glad the money is going back to the players (some), but I honestly think Worlds should have been kept at a less "exotic" location, reducing the overall cost. I'd rather see them give back to the player population at large, than just the select few that make it to Worlds (I know opinions are going to differ greatly on this subject. I'm prepared...)

Opinions?

 

[ShadowCard]

I agree with you, butterfly719. On the topics of leagues being non-profit, prereleases are not leagues and prereleases do charge. It is work to have to judge. Judges are most likely not just judging, they are setting up and breaking down the tournament props as well. Work should get some form of compensation. Maybe your volunteering, and that is your choice, but that should not be the default (unless you're playing in the People's Republic of PokeGym, of course ). A problem that I used to see is players judging because they knew they would get lots of packs for free, vs the players who had to pay for just 8 packs. The amount of judging support shouldn't heavily outweigh what the players are getting at a prerelease.

The +$5 for the prerelease is going to turn away families that play in those tournaments. A family with two players now has to pay $50, instead of $40. A family of 4 players - which we do have in Virginia - has to pay $100, instead of $80. You can convince people to pay $40 and $80, but the numbers $50 and $100 are connatatively much bigger than $40 and $80, respectively. I hate to bring up the "it's better to buy a box" argument, but my online sources are charging the same price for D/P as they are Dragon Frontiers. Price per box has not gone up on the internet. Why pay $100+ for 32 packs when you can get 36 for less than $100? You can say "you're playing in a prerelease for the wrong reason..." until you're blue in the face, but then you'll be blue in the face while having less attendance numbers at your prerelease. The promotional item had better be worth it. I'm not going to push the promotional item until I know what it is - a notebook was pushing it, I narrowly escaped getting run out of town .

As for POP getting a lot of complaints, it doesn't seem like it is that many. Most of the complaining is about the ranking system. It could be a lot worse.

For POP's choice of Worlds, I'd prefer they'd move it back to the mainland USA, back to the east coast somewhere around the Mid-Atlantic . However, it being Worlds, it should be a select few from each participating region instead of a swarm of Americans and a few from the other regions. Hawaii was a good choice for that. Or maybe Worlds should be in Europe?

 

[Team Cook]

A lot of judges I know have kids who play in the prereleases. So they judge and pay for their kids to play. Typically, they have 2 kids or more. So based on 2 kids, that's $50 for the prerelease, + another $50 for the side event run after the prerelease. Gas prices have also increased substantially recently, meaning a greater cost in transportation to travel to the event. So now the judge puts in a full 8 hour day, shells out $100 for tourney fees (which could just be used to buy a complete box) + more for lunch/gas/etc. and now on top of it, isn't going to get their box for judge support to help recoup some of what they spent (in both money and time)? Or in a different scenario, if the judge has been dropped from the tourney do you really think they are still going to pay the money to drive all that way and now spend more than they originally would have had to? I see attendence dropping instead...Opinions?

Please take note that this is a PTOs opinion.

First off, a fact, not an opinion, a thought, or rumor. FACT, It is not PUIs responsibility to provide you with judge support. When a TO / PTO runs a tournament, it is up to the TO / PTO to provide judge support.

Now my opinion on Butterflys quote.

You've made it very clear that you're not that happy about judge support so I would strongly suggest that you quit judging, just like Beatlerat did. This isn't meant to be a mean opinion. If you really feel this way, stick with playing the game. Why? I can promise you this, if you continue to want to judge and then be disappointed about the judge support, your disappointment will turn to hatred. Once this happens, it's all down hill. Trust me, I've seen it happen in the short time I've been a PTO, and I'm NOT talking about Beatlerat.

For some reason, you seem to know about your TO / PTOs financial situation when it comes to Pokemon. Knowing this, I say again, offer to judge without judge support. After all, you're the one that started this thread because of that reason. Another thing, if you feel you're spending to much money at at a Prerelease, then stop paying for side events. There, you just saved 50.00.

One last thing, WE DON'T RUN EVENTS AND ASK YOU TO JUDGE SO YOU CAN "RECOUP" YOUR LOSES FOR THE DAY. Recoup is your word, not mine.

I wish you the best of luck and hopefully I'll see you at Nationals.

 

[PokeDaddy]

I offer this, right, wrong, or indifferent:

• A Corporation is out to do one thing - Increase their Market Share thus increasing the per unit price of a Share of Stock.
• A Corporation makes decisions on the basis of financial profitability, not emotion
• Actions Corporation take may look great to a share holder but bad to those who may not see the total financial picture.
• This Corporation is Nintendo. They are the parent company to PUI

This thread is a collision of Business 101 and Passion 101.

 

[PokePop]

I know what your saying Pop, but ... Leagues are not non-profit. And I'm not talking about charging a small amount to attend (I believe it's still O.K. to do that), because I/my store owners have never done that. My one league is however the best money raiser for that store, because it brings so many people into the store. So much so that when he goes out of business at the end of the month he is going to continue holding league at the park district. I do profit from my leagues myself, but only in playing time and professor points. That's enough for me to keep doing it.

I will note that I do sell packs and PCDs at League (at a healthy discount), but I'd make more money working at the local Walmart stocking shelves. For the majority of players, if a free weekly event.
Heck, with the cards I give away helping build decks, the players make more off of me. :tongue:

I should also note, for completeness sake, the PokeGym is a non-profit endeavor. With 5 partners that change from time to time, it would be a nightmare if we tried to transfer ownership of a for-profit business as TC members ebb and flow over the years. Keeping it non-profit makes all that a non-issue.

 

[butterfly719]

In RE: Team Cook (as replied in PM)

Actually, I'm not sure my point came across as clear as I intended it to. I feel that YOU and other PTOs should not be the ones responsible to provide this judge support. Don't you think you already do enough to help out Nintendo? I mean, you bust your butt just as much as the judges, if not more so, getting orders in, getting venues set up (should you operate tourneys outside of your own store), promoting the tournament and getting new players, AND making sure that you have your own roster of judges to help all of this move along smoothly. And I bet you and other PTOs do even more than that, but not being one myself, I wouldn't know the extent to the work.

Now I'm sure you probably profit atleast sometimes from running these, but Nintendo is obviously reaping the greatest rewards from your and other PTOs hard work. I know, again like comparing apples to oranges since Nintendo is a huge corporation. But being a huge profitable corporation, I do not think it is unfair to expect Nintendo to provide reasonable compensation for the people who "work" for them. I would think it is more unfair to expect the PTOs to handle this and cut into the profits they make, to make sure they have a sufficient staff. It just seems to me that Nintendo has started "cutting too many corners" so to speak.

In Re: to the quitting judging

See, I would never want to actually stop judging. I like it too much, most of the time more than I like playing, and it is definitely not only for the judge support. Most of the time, I work with the Junior and Senior groups (I love working with younger kids) and I find this very rewarding on its own. However, I think Nintendo is wrong in removing the compensation all together. I know they provide us with Prof Points, and that's great as a supplement, but it appears that they are trying to switch over to using only that form of compensation. I'm really not trying to sound greedy in saying this, and I apologize if it comes off that way. But I don't view it as fair for anyone to commit to an 8+ hour day to run a tourney (after incuring their own travel expenses), most of the time doing atleast a moderate amount of work, which at the end of the day they receive enough professor points to get one 2-card POP booster pack. If they needed to cut something for whatever reason, I would have rather seen them cut the Prof. points.

And I'll agree, maybe recoup wasn't the proper word to use. However, I'm not sure what would be. I wasn't talking about "recouping losses" in that sense, but was mainly pointing out that the judge of families usually already spend quite a bit during the day paying for their kids to play the main event and side events, but usually they atleast walk away at the end of the day with their judge box which they can open with their kids. If there are no more judge boxes, now it's money that is normally spent for their kids + the time they commit to running the tournament, with no additional benefit.

 

[JohnnyBlaze]

I do side with judge support of some type. There has to be some carrot given out and not just dangled. Judge support- that is healthy for the game. Judges need to talk with their PTO's b4 hand. If the judge disagrees with the outcome then guess what? Don't judge and play instead. With more judges playing there will be an increase in attendance and less help for the PTO's. Hopefully this does not have a negative spiral on the game if we have a lot of judges dropping because a lack of judge support.

I personally have always preferred to be a competitor but I did assist judge at Worlds 2002 in Seattle under WOTC but can't remember if there was judge support or not. I still have the cool shirt though!

Also I am very similar to PokePop when it comes to giving out any free extras that I may have to new players.

 

[butterfly719]

Hopefully this does not have a negative spiral on the game if we have a lot of judges dropping because a lack of judge support.

See, my main concern wasn't so much about judges quitting because of the lack of judge support. It was the PTOs dropping judges themselves, because they can't afford to give the compensation to every judge they have, feeling that it would be unfair to compensate some and not others (even if the others were doing it voluntarily), and down-sizing the staff as a result. The main problem I would see coming from this would be the PTOs feeling overwhelmed and understaffed, perhaps making for a more hectic event than there should have been.

 

[Team Cook]

Heck, I might as well ask this, but please don't name names because I'm not here to call someone out. Are there TO / PTOs out there that DON'T give anything for judge support? Y'all make it sound like this is a regular occurrence. I would really be surprised if the answer is yes. Everyone I know offers something. Maybe not cards, but something. Maybe not always a FULL BOX, but something.

The good thing is that I have a group of parents I know I can count on if I really need staff help. I don't mean judging, but staff. By using them, it frees us up (us being Mia, Anthony and me -- Team Cook) to get on the floor and judge. That's an automatic one per age group coverage. Great for our smaller events. More difficult for larger events, but at least we've got that. (We do have others studying to take the professor test). In any case, I don't think there's been a time when we have not offered them some sort of support. I have had times when parents refuse support and if they do, I take note of it and make sure they get taken care of in the future.

I've had judges come right out and say that they refuse to judge for 18 packs. I've had them get mad at me and refuse to ever judge again (not Beatlerat). You know what I say to that? See ya, don't let the door hit you in the back.

 

[NoPoke]

Yes,

and No. No because the system outside the USA makes it difficult to afford staff.

We have to charge entrance to cover costs, there is little to no advertising/support to help us from out local OP provider, each event that we run is a risk. My goal is to not loose money running events. I haven't always met that goal.

UK tournaments frequently run with just the TO doing everything. Actually I should qualify that. The common practice in the UK is to attempt to run tournaments with just a TO and no staff.