Judging Rewards...What is fair?

[beatlerat]

Hi,
I have been in Pokemon a long time and seen the changes from WOTC (no 15+) to the present format. There are ideas that have been good and worked out reasonably well, and some of them not so good, causing a disturbance along the rank and file of Pokemon players. Although a point system is needed, I am not sure that the present system in place is fair to players in rural communities that may have a chance to go to 1 or 2 CC's, whereas in Houston, there are 7 scheduled and another 1 or 2 in the works. That certainly favors the "Big City" players.
But what I would like to talk about is the rewards given the people that are asked by the TO or PTO to help judge their events. What is fair? So we know that you get points for judging events, but is that enough?
A former PTO in the area always gave his staff a box of cards each, no questions asked. Our current PTO generally gives the head judge (or professor/league leader for the staore in which the tournament is being held) a box for judging and helping out, and I assume his staff splits the rest.
But at the CC's this year, it seems they have cut back. A half a box for judging. Depending on the number of people in the tournament....say 6 rounds, lunch, cut to top 8 (3 more hours), you are looking at an 8 hour day including registration and deck checks.
It is obvious to me that on eBay I can get a box of cards shipped to my house for about 75.00. Now I don't know about most of you, but I earn that in a couple of good overtime hours on the weekend. So any time I judge, I am still losing time and money while judging a tournament. Why do I do it? Because I like doing it and the compensation is OK.
But to be dropped to 18 packs for the same length of time on the clock may not cut it for me. I know many of you would jump at the chance to judge for a half a box. Some of you may even want to judge for free. But for me, the compensation WAS always something. It really MEANT something.
Now I am not complaining about our PTO's position. He may have his reasons for cutting back and that is fine. That is his business.
I wanted to see what other judges received and/ or what they expected to receive as compensation for judging. IS there a possibility that it will stop some of the usual profs/judges from judging (that they may play) and weaken the judging pool? What is just compensation for judging a tournament all day? What do you feel is fair?

 

[EeveeLover]

I'm not sure if you are talking about the City Champs Series or support in general. For the Cities events, the TO/PTO is sent 4 boxes of product. 3 boxes to split between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th places and the last box to be split between the judges. If you are lucky, you get 18 packs for working a Cities. Most locations the Staff will receive 8 - 12 packs each.


For other events, I do not have an answer for you.

 

[PokePop]

EeveeLover: He's not asking about what is being sent, he's asking what should be sent.

 

[Team Cook]

EeveeLover: He's not asking about what is being sent, he's asking what should be sent.

He's not asking what PUI sends us for judge support, he's asking what's considered fair for judging Cities.


Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:





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Well, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too!

My thoughts on this:
-- Team Cook Mom

But what I would like to talk about is the rewards given the people that are asked by the TO or PTO to help judge their events. What is fair? So we know that you get points for judging events, but is that enough?

First of all, judging is VOLUNTARY. You are NEVER under any obligation to judge. PERIOD.

We ask our judges if they WOULD LIKE to judge -- sometimes, it is merely an offer of courtesy.

A former PTO in the area always gave his staff a box of cards each, no questions asked. Our current PTO generally gives the head judge (or professor/league leader for the staore in which the tournament is being held) a box for judging and helping out, and I assume his staff splits the rest.

Perhaps you don't realize that there have been lots of changes since those days of the "former PTO", but it's not necessary to go into them. What was offered in the past doesn't matter now.

Anthony is the head judge for all our events (except Regionals). For events held in stores, we have the league leaders from those stores also judge. In addition to the floor judges, there's usually a support system in place consisiting of other volunteers. Depending on the type of event, they help with an assortment of duties: help manage the little kids, record match results, distribute and collect match slips, registration, theme decks, etc... There are lots of pieces to the puzzle. Some ALWAYS want more, while others would gladly give theirs up. We have all kinds. Unfortunately, the most vocal ones are the ones who want more.

It is obvious to me that on eBay I can get a box of cards shipped to my house for about 75.00.

Long live ebay!

Now I don't know about most of you, but I earn that in a couple of good overtime hours on the weeke
But to be dropped to 18 packs for the same length of time on the clock may not cut it for me.

Then don't judge... There, problem solved!

Now I am not complaining about our PTO's position.

No, you're complaining about what you assume will be your judge support for judging a CC (and you haven't even judged a CC yet).

I wanted to see what other judges received and/ or what they expected to receive as compensation for judging.

Why? Do you think what they receive or what they think they should receive has a bearing on anything we do here?

IS there a possibility that it will stop some of the usual profs/judges from judging (that they may play) and weaken the judging pool?

I agree that it will discourage some of the usual professors/judges from judging (just read your post), but I disagree with the part about it weakening the judging pool. ( Absolutely not! We have a very strong judging team, and Anthony is by far THE most knowledgeable professor/judge in the state). If anything, it will help weed out those who say "I'm not complaining, but...." or "It's not about the judge support, but...".

Maybe it's about time....

Houston, we're looking for new judges.


-- Mia
Team Cook Mom

 

[~Blazi-King~]

It is obvious to me that on eBay I can get a box of cards shipped to my house for about 75.00. Now I don't know about most of you, but I earn that in a couple of good overtime hours on the weekend. So any time I judge, I am still losing time and money while judging a tournament. Why do I do it? Because I like doing it and the compensation is OK.

I am glad that I get what I get from judging a tournement. You got to remember though, that most people dont make what you make. So to them getting that much product is wonderful, mainly because them or their parents are not able to go and buy a box of cards.

My mother makes just as much as you do if not more. In 2 1/2 hours she makes $75 easy in overtime on the weekends, she is also getting to work holidays this year making almost $100 an hour, So dont go there. Not many people make that kind of good money, and get the things they want without having to work whole weeks at a time to save it up and still pay the bills. If you want to judge you want to judge regardless of what you get in return. There are some people who want to judge so that they can help propel this game to a higher level, and others who want to judge JUST to get product, or a combination of both.

But to be dropped to 18 packs for the same length of time on the clock may not cut it for me. I know many of you would jump at the chance to judge for a half a box. Some of you may even want to judge for free. But for me, the compensation WAS always something. It really MEANT something.

Isnt that being greedy though? Are you in it to have fun, or to make money? I hate to be this blunt but thats whats comming across from your post...

 

[EeveeLover]

EeveeLover: He's not asking about what is being sent, he's asking what should be sent.

Ok, I will toss my thought on that one. Like the other poster in this, I work with staff that is there for the game and the fun involved, and I deal with others that have the "Show me the money" attitude.

Personally, I would do it for free. I enjoy the fun and satisfaction that I get working with the kids, parents, stores, and other staff members. Yes, in my area some of our normal judges are more interested in playing than judging. Some because of support, some for the K rates.

For the ppl that are in it for the "money", they don't judge, period. Some are used at small events and pres, most of the time we spend chasing them around or trying to find them. So what is the point. Yep, PUI cut back support, but it is not all about the staff and judges. It IS all about the players.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to this. If you don't feel it is worth your time, don't do it. Would I love to see each staff member get a fullbox, yes, I would. Was I overwelmed at Worlds with the Support there, Yes I was.

Should judging replace a persons need to purchase product, no. The more that is given away, the higher the price goes.

 

[Shellshock929]

There are some people in my area who only judge for boxes and just stand around talking amongst themselves. They have very little SotG, from my experiences seeing them judge. I'm not pointing fingers on anyone, but I've seen it happen most of the time.

As for me, if there is anyone that needs help, I am always there. I honestly don't care for judging rewards that much because of the Greed that's involved, but I believe that it's the thought that counts. I love judging and I would continue to do this whenever people need me to do so.

And if anyone has any problem with judging support, then it's because they're greedy, and shouldn't be judging, period.

 

[beatlerat]

Well, so far, I am not getting the answers I thought I would. Except from Team Cook. I never said that any of the product support was NOT fair. It is obvious from my post that I don't need to judge to get cards. I was mearly asking what type of product support do feel is fair to judge an 8 hour event?
Nothing, 18 packs, a Box?
Compensation is exactly that. It is nice to receive product for your time. I also thougbt that the compensation was in appreciation for what the volunteers do, besides the judging.

No, you're complaining about what you assume will be your judge support for judging a CC (and you haven't even judged a CC yet).

Are you kidding? If I don't judge a city this year, it will be the first year in three that I have not. I am not complaining about prize support, I just want to ask what people think is fair for support. Who's whining?

Maybe it's about time....

Houston, we're looking for new judges.

Why look, wouldn't you rather do it without the help of Volunteers? Seems to me from your attitude that you would.

 

[PokePop]

I think Beatlerat makes a very reasonable point.
This is a capitalist society we're in.
Being compensated for one's efforts is not evil. It's how things work.
Especially this year, when the incentive to play every event is so strong, to build up one's record in hopes of earning that invite. Why expect people to give up that chance for nothing other than a pat of the back?
Don't get me wrong. I do a lot of things for free.
Running a league is pretty much a lot of work for free.
We could sell lots more ads on this site, but we choose to run it non-profit.
But a TO (or PTO) gets paid to run a Premeire event. That's not a secret.
If money's being made by the "boss", the workers should get compensation too.
How much is fair compensation?

I'd like to see this topic get to that rather than stuck in "you should be happy to work for free".
I think there are some openings in North Korea for those that want to work for free.

 

[Lawman]

Fair comp would probably be a box. That breaks down to about 8-10 bucks/hr. Now, the way I see it, most of the judges I know and have been priviledged to work beside, are pretty good players also. BUT, they have decided it is better to give more back to the game than what they COULD get so that many many others get that chance to chase the "brass ring".

I like judging in 15+, but the real joy is watching the Juniors and Senoirs play. Especially the Juniors. Having worked in the 10- arena @ Worlds 2006, it re-inforces why "we" judge. To see how Kim Cary took the time, effort and compassion to HJ that area.....I enjoyed my Worlds experience greatly (and would do it again in a heartbeat!)

So, bottom line, many judges get the "comp" from other sources....not just the packs. Seriously, where do those packs go any way? Most go to the kids, if they are parents who Judge.

JMHO

Keith

 

[PokeMama]

Personally I think the Judge support from PUI should be at least somewhat based on attendance like it is for Prereleases. Hardly seems fair that the CC with 12 players requiring only 1 Judge has a box of Judge support while a CC like ours with 70, 80 or even 90 players requiring 5 or 6 qualified judges giving up their chance to play would have to split the same 1 box. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind it. I mean, I'll still compensate my Judges for the fine work they do the same as I usually do to show how much I personally appreciate all their help. I just don't see why I would be allowed less to give them for this event when the stakes for the players are much higher than at a Prerelease, especially given the importance of having the extra time of Top Cuts and having quality judges to staff these 'first step to Worlds' events.

 

[TOM CAT]

I think that in our area there is alot more going on than what PUI sends as judging support versus what is needed/fair. Unfortunatly there is quite a bit of "politics" if you will. Our PTO already has a staff of three: himself, his wife, and son. Most events that is sufficient and others really aren't needed. For "appearances" (I hesitate to use the word courtesy) other people are "allowed" to judge (if you have to ask I don't consider it inviting). When you feel that you are the "token" judge and then receive lower compensation you might make the decision not to judge. It is not only about the SOTG and whether you support Pokemon but also about respect.

( Absolutely not! We have a very strong judging team, and Anthony is by far THE most knowledgeable professor/judge in the state).

I think we have MANY fine judges in Houston and Texas. While I agree that Anthony is very knowledgable I think that there are many who are just as qualified i.e. Prof. Birch, Patriarch, Ryan, Blazi-king, Jose, Beatlerat, Danny and Diana to name a few. There are others who have told me they won't judge for this PTO either.

 

[Team Cook]

I think that in our area there is alot more going on than what PUI sends as judging support versus what is needed/fair. Unfortunatly there is quite a bit of "politics" if you will. Our PTO already has a staff of three: himself, his wife, and son. Most events that is sufficient and others really aren't needed. For "appearances" (I hesitate to use the word courtesy) other people are "allowed" to judge (if you have to ask I don't consider it inviting). When you feel that you are the "token" judge and then receive lower compensation you might make the decision not to judge. It is not only about the SOTG and whether you support Pokemon but also about respect.



I think we have MANY fine judges in Houston and Texas. While I agree that Anthony is very knowledgable I think that there are many who are just as qualified i.e. Prof. Birch, Patriarch, Ryan, Blazi-king, Jose, Beatlerat, Danny and Diana to name a few. There are others who have told me they won't judge for this PTO either.

Let the personal attacks begin!

 

[Lawman]

PokeMama brings up a couple of salient points. 1) CCs are more important than PRs bc "they count now" towards a global ranking and ultimate Worlds invite. A PR is supposed to be a fun, relaxed environment. There isnt a top cut at a PR, which shortens the event by at least 2 hrs. So, CCs should have more judging comp than a PR IMO. 2) Why should a CC w/ 25-30 ppl get the same comp as a CC w/ 50-70 ppl, requiring more staff? Most, if not all PTOs know their player base, so they should be able to let PUI how many players to expect and what size staff is required. That can help get the comp at the appropriate level.

PTOs that have spouses that help are great, dont diss them bc they help! I wish my wife would understand more about what Judges do, players do, etc. She just says she is a 'pokemon widow' during certain times of the year bc oldest son and I are gone. This thread wasnt meant to be a diss towards anyone in particuler. I think beatlerat, 'Pop and others have interesting issues to discuss. Those that bash certain PTOs, shame on you. Take it up w/ them in person, they will respect you more that way. Dont blabber about it here, behind the veil of the internet! If you bash here, dont be surprised if those PTOs look for judges elsewhere.

Keith

PS As I was typing, Team Cook posted a reply. So sad that people feel the need to bash online. Give them the repect that PUI shows in them bc they ARE PTOs and talk to them in person. JMHO

 

[TOM CAT]

It wasn't an attempt to bash anyone. Just a statement of facts. If I run events I'm grateful that my family helps. I love that we play Pokemon as a family. The only bashing I saw was the lack of respect for the GREAT judges we have in Texas. I just wanted to point out that other things come into play when people decide to judge or when other people ask people to judge besides what product is involved. I think we can all agree on that.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Yes I would never post anything here that I hadn't stated in person before. As a matter of fact I woulddn't have posted now except for the comment about the judges.

Oh by the way I do agree that events should have judge support based on attendance and that PUI should recognize that some markets have larger events. If they won't increase judge support maybe they should cap the number of entries like they are doing with worlds.

 

[Team Cook]

Lawman and others:

Unfortunately the Houston Pokemon politics has been around for a long time. It was there since Day 1 of my becoming a PTO. A couple of people have been unable to get past this. We have been able to keep it under control, until recently, when we felt that "enough is enough". Something happened at a recent CC that brought all this on.

Because of the politics, I feel even more fortunate to have a built-in team. I can go into any event knowing that I can trust my wife and 20-year old son completely, and I know that like me, they have the best interest of the event at heart. The show will go on regardless....

We've decided to channel all our energy into our events, and making them fun for our players. We just don't have the energy to fight with anyone over anything. Our events and players come first in our book. We won't let a disgruntled judge or two ruin it for the hundreds of players in the Greater Houston area.

There's so much I could say about what has recently been said... but I won't. I'll trust in the people who really know me, and the players who really matter.

And I agree that we have some fine judges in Texas. We never said we didn't. We've had the pleasure of working with some great ones, and will continue to do so.

To get back on topic: The bottom line remains the same. If you don't like the compensation, then don't judge.

 

[bullados]

The only thing that I want out of my judging is recognition from within PUI on a job well done and future consideration for other important judging jobs (Nats, Worlds would be nice). The cards are a nice bonus, but I'd do it just for the recognition. I want to become a good TO, and eventually PTO, through my work, and I want the work that I do to count towards what I'm trying to accomplish...

OK, I'm rambling. I'll stop now...

 

[TOM CAT]

I think that Keith's intention was to do a little fact finding and get discussion going about compensation in relation to PUI. Historically, PUI has read these boards and listened to their players, judges, professors, etc and made changes i.e. we got the grinder back for worlds :clap: .

Hopefully we can move this discussion back to the topic it was meant to be on. I think like a lot of things communication is the key to resolution. Thankfully we live in America where we can state our opinion and lobby for change.

When we get involved in activities where the expectations are clear there is less disappointment. For instance we are all very clear on what is involved in running a league and what compensation to expect. If tournaments were the same i.e. we were always guaraneteed a box or if standards were set that for tournaments about how many judges were needed per players and PUI/PTO provided appropriate support and PUI/PTO made it clear in advance what to expect then the judges would decided whether they wanted to judge or play. I think that the problem is with the unexpected and that the compensation is not standardized.

 

[Team Cook]

Team Cook Mom here. I know it's confusing when both Mike and I are posting under the same screen name. Earlier today, I set up a Team Cook Mom account here on Pokegym, but I can't post here until they grant that account Professor status. So, I have to share the Team Cook account a little bit longer with Mike. I've just never felt the need to have my own account here until now. ((Usually though, Mike's posts are in BOLD, and I try to identify my posts as coming from me)).


First of all, beatlerat, you're still on the judge list for the Dec. 3rd event. Mike wants to make sure you know that. You have always focused on the job at hand and we've been pleased with your performance as a judge. The offer still stands if you want to judge, but we understand if you'll opt not to in light of recent events.


Now on to something that bugs me:

Last year, about the same time (City Championship season), you openly complained on the 'Gym about some of our events being on Sundays. I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish by that, but you seemed to imply that we had intentionally planned them that way. If I recall correctly, you also sent your complaint to PUI. The response was simply something to the effect of "if you can't attend on Sunday, then don't".

This year, your complaint is about judge support. Rather than defend each point you made on your original post, I responded in a manner that you apparently expected from us. Regardless of what the support is or what it should be, the bottom line is that if you're not happy with it, then don't judge".

What's it going to be next year? I have a feeling our response will once again be "If you don't like it, then don't..." It may sound familiar, but you do notice the theme here, right?

It's difficult to support your judges, when you feel like they're always trying to find fault in what you do.


Now, on to responding to your comments:

Are you kidding? If I don't judge a city this year, it will be the first year in three that I have not. I am not complaining about prize support, I just want to ask what people think is fair for support. Who's whining?

You're not new to the Pokemon community. You've been around a long time. You've seen a lot of changes during this time..... A lot of your posts on the 'Gym seem to be controversial. You knew what kind of responses you'd get from starting this thread. You DEFINITELY knew how WE would reply. So, there's no surprise there. However, if you are claiming that you were merely asking for opinions about what is fair for judge support, there was NO REASON WHATSOEVER for the terms "former PTO" and "current PTO" to be in your post. That sets the thread in a totally different direction.

While your post didn't surprise me, I am puzzled about one thing... Where did you hear that judge support for CCs is 18 packs? (Actually, I know where you got that -- I just don't know why you assumed it would apply to you). We NEVER told you that. In fact, I think Mike reminded you that judge support is not always the same for everyone. Although, it usually is, you were told THAT for a reason. Keep this in mind, while you are always focused on the job at hand when you judge for us, this isn't always the case with other judges. There were some issues with an earlier judge which we don't really want to get into. We gave THAT JUDGE 18 packs. We never said YOU would get 18 packs. You jumped to this conclusion, and now, we're seeing a different side....

There have been quite a few times when we have issued more judge support than what was alloted by PUI. This is not usually the case at the events you judge in, since the attendance numbers are more manageable. But we've had to do this for some of the larger events. We don't have a problem doing this when we feel it is well deserved. Recent developments have made us decide to stop adding product/support for a judge whose performance we're not happy with. We're not being difficult, we have just had enough.

Why look, wouldn't you rather do it without the help of Volunteers? Seems to me from your attitude that you would.

NOPE. We'd rather NOT do it without any help. Most of our staff/volunteers have been a pleasure to work with. In fact, there are some events that we could not pull off without any help. But, I would rather NOT have anyone, than have someone who's more trouble than help. And we don't want disgruntled judges working for us. It's almost as bad as a judge I have to babysit. It's a very logical thought process: Why wouldn't a PTO want someone who's an asset to his event? It just doesn't make sense -- except when that person stops becoming an asset (or maybe never was) and becomes more of a liability. There's nothing worse to a PTO than staff he can't trust.

Who's whining?

Maybe they weren't whining, but our judges have said that they wouldn't stand on their feet for half a box.....

 

[beatlerat]

Unfortunately, a PTO thinks he and his family are being stepped on.

All I want to know what people think is fair compensation for judging in tournaments. Our tournaments in Texas last longer (time wise) because we have more players enter the tournaments. I think that is a testament to the work PTO's Professor Birch and Team Cook, as well as every other League leader in Texas does for Pokemon. No league leader is compensated for their involvement in Pokemon (except for professor points which I also like). I have two leagues, some other leaders many more. We give freely of our time and no one, I said NO ONE complains. It is because of that devotion that Pokemon has flourished in Houston, and in Texas.
I wanted to know what was fair compensation for judging an event. If Team Cook feels they need no help, that is fine. No one is bashing them for their opinion.
I did not realize that PUI gives everyone the same amount of support. If that is a problem and the PTO needs more support, then they should ask for it. If product support is not a problem, and you feel you can get by with the same support for an eighty player tournament as someone with a forty player tournament, I am OK with that, too.
I just wanted to know what most considered fair compensation.
I probably wouldn't work a tourney for free. I might, but would rather play for 18 packs. I would definetly help/judge for a box. Simple as that.
It is unfortunate that some people can't stay on the topic, and instead, rake someone over he coals insted of answering the question themselves.