Mewtwo EX and Pokemon Catcher
- Thread starter GeoEdge
- Start date
You didn't really need to go that far back for an example. There was an identical situation with Bellsprout last year.As that is a little confusing, here is a historical example. Due to Slowking (Neo Genesis 14/111) and to a lesser extent, Dark Vileplume (Team Rocket 13/82, 30/82) Brock's Mankey (Gym Heroes 67/132) was run as TecH. The reason was its first attack, Taunt which for the cost ofcolorless
Any match lacking one of those two? Brock's Mankey was a liability; it was a 40 HP Basic Pokémon in a format where that wasn't a hard first-turn KO. Since you would only play it down because you had to (or felt you had to - e.g. your other Basic was also small), it usually was a liability outside of saving you from a brutal beating at the hand of the two major branches of Trainer-lock decks.
Otaku
Active Member
Except I didn't know about the Bellsprout situation. >.> How often was it played?
I went with Brock's Mankey because it is literally is how I learned the concept of TecHing Pokémon; being an old example is neither more nor less relevant in this case, I think... save I know the cards better.
I went with Brock's Mankey because it is literally is how I learned the concept of TecHing Pokémon; being an old example is neither more nor less relevant in this case, I think... save I know the cards better.
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
It was played a little in things like Reshiphlosion and ZPS. Basically as a counter to Vileplume/Reuniclus decks.
If you couldn't OHKO their active without a PlusPower, they would just keep moving and healing the damage off. Bellsprout meant you could drag out the Plume for the KO and break the lock.
Ignatious
New Member
Believe me when I say this; looking at the rest of the card pool, catcher is actually a saving grace. it creates tons of complex strategies and provides different angles to approach match ups. Its sheer power plays a big role in discarding them or using early for stall. Furthermore catcher speeds the game up, and without it, the format would likely turn into a max potion fest instead. That would would be monotonous...
Otaku
Active Member
At the risk of sounding like I disagree, you realize that it is quite easy (and accurate, as far as I am concerned) to point out that Pokémon Catcher is helping this format because of what I at least believe amounts to either flawed execution or flawed intent for the game.
Most of what makes it so annoying boils down to the speed of the format being "too fast". We need something to disrupt the Bench unless we have basically no "Bench" Abilities (and even then building Pokémon up on the Bench could cause issues - yes, really!). There are many options, such as attacks, Abilities, even Energy in addition to various Trainers, and whether they allow you to hit the Bench or change out the Active Pokémon.
Having a generic Item do it tends to work better than requiring every serious deck have a "sniper" or a Pokémon with a disruptive attack, etc. This is only due to human error; ideally there would be several major options, but then we have the problem of making them competitive with a generic and balanced with each other. So again, just being clear; I recognize the "need" for Pokémon Catcher.
If we didn't have decks that hit so hard so quickly, while some would surely still complain (it is basically a given), I think Pokémon Catcher would be above reproach; the concern develops because of how it favors the decks that really need the least help. Something with a decent (but not even "brilliant") opening attack can use Pokémon Catcher to keep an opponent from setting up while simultaneously wracking up those KOs. This just isn't the same as having it happen say three our four turns and/or when it takes a good two hits to KO something still in the process of setting up.
tl;dr: Pokémon Catcher makes bad things about the format "less bad", but if those other issues were addressed things could be quite good.
vaporeon
Moderator
Otaku, this is why I feel the need for a ban list. In a game like Pokemon, I have no idea why they don't follow through on this. They do have something like this in Japan but I'm sure players just use older cards with modified decks. The format is way too fast and we have a lot of powerful and fast cards. There's a few things wrong with the game I feel.
1- They refuse to use a Ban/Restricted List. A list like this does not hurt a game. In fact, it shows that the devolopers care about the game. I'm not saying TPC does not care about its product but its just a byproduct from about 100 other things. The TGC should not be treated as a byproduct.
I feel a card like Mewtwo EX should be a one of in a deck. Its good against everything. Even its worst matchup is not great. its very versatile and while its not bad, a deck with Mewtwo EX will win against a deck without a Mewtwo almost every time. Thats a problem because Mewtwo EX prevents other decks from being useful.
2- Ace-Spec Cards These just rub me the wrong way all together. They are not flexible at all and the execution is just bad. Sure the idea of a card you can only have one in a deck is cool and all but how is that any better then say, one Mewtwo EX in a deck? Most of them are not playable and would leave players with better options. Why would I play a Pokemon specific Ace Spec when I can use Gold Potion or even Computer Search?
So, why not just use a Ban List? it way more flexible and achieves the same things a rotation would do. Maybe 4 Mewtwo EX per deck is a little overpowered, so put it down to 1or even 2. No need to stop at Mewtwo, the sky's the limit. A ban list is far superior to Ace-Specs.
3- TCG vs VG In the video game, we ban elements because they are way to many things to account for. We ban evasion because its too hard to control. You have no idea how hard a +6 evasion Blissey is to take down. Why I bring this up? Well, because players who play the VG will say "I should not have to deal with that" or "I'm not going to dedicate a move slot for it" but when the play the the TCG, they don't want anything banned? I never got that.
Just like the VG, the TCG also has elements you can't control. There are way to many cards and deck combos that players need to deal with. The way the game is setup right now is just some decks just out right win, no matter how hard the opponent fought back. In the TCG, you don't have many options but in the VG, you do.
4- Side Decks. Again, this is not something new. Every other card game allows it. Pokemon has gotten a lot faster then what it use to be so why don't we or cant we play best of 2 in tournaments? Not only would that not allow the player who played the best to win most of the time but it also allows for a side deck. Pokemon right now has way too many you win or you lose matchups. A side deck helps with that by allowing players the extra option to tech their deck mid game.
Some good options of side deck cards would be'
.The forth Catcher
.Enhanced Hammer
.Super Scoop Up
.Potion
.Disruptive Supporters
.Extra Pokemon lines
.Ninetales line
The side deck possibilities are endless and can help a deck play better during a bad matchup they throwing a player into a best of one, draw what you draw and play.
1- They refuse to use a Ban/Restricted List. A list like this does not hurt a game. In fact, it shows that the devolopers care about the game. I'm not saying TPC does not care about its product but its just a byproduct from about 100 other things. The TGC should not be treated as a byproduct.
I feel a card like Mewtwo EX should be a one of in a deck. Its good against everything. Even its worst matchup is not great. its very versatile and while its not bad, a deck with Mewtwo EX will win against a deck without a Mewtwo almost every time. Thats a problem because Mewtwo EX prevents other decks from being useful.
2- Ace-Spec Cards These just rub me the wrong way all together. They are not flexible at all and the execution is just bad. Sure the idea of a card you can only have one in a deck is cool and all but how is that any better then say, one Mewtwo EX in a deck? Most of them are not playable and would leave players with better options. Why would I play a Pokemon specific Ace Spec when I can use Gold Potion or even Computer Search?
So, why not just use a Ban List? it way more flexible and achieves the same things a rotation would do. Maybe 4 Mewtwo EX per deck is a little overpowered, so put it down to 1or even 2. No need to stop at Mewtwo, the sky's the limit. A ban list is far superior to Ace-Specs.
3- TCG vs VG In the video game, we ban elements because they are way to many things to account for. We ban evasion because its too hard to control. You have no idea how hard a +6 evasion Blissey is to take down. Why I bring this up? Well, because players who play the VG will say "I should not have to deal with that" or "I'm not going to dedicate a move slot for it" but when the play the the TCG, they don't want anything banned? I never got that.
Just like the VG, the TCG also has elements you can't control. There are way to many cards and deck combos that players need to deal with. The way the game is setup right now is just some decks just out right win, no matter how hard the opponent fought back. In the TCG, you don't have many options but in the VG, you do.
4- Side Decks. Again, this is not something new. Every other card game allows it. Pokemon has gotten a lot faster then what it use to be so why don't we or cant we play best of 2 in tournaments? Not only would that not allow the player who played the best to win most of the time but it also allows for a side deck. Pokemon right now has way too many you win or you lose matchups. A side deck helps with that by allowing players the extra option to tech their deck mid game.
Some good options of side deck cards would be'
.The forth Catcher
.Enhanced Hammer
.Super Scoop Up
.Potion
.Disruptive Supporters
.Extra Pokemon lines
.Ninetales line
The side deck possibilities are endless and can help a deck play better during a bad matchup they throwing a player into a best of one, draw what you draw and play.
Kayle
Active Member
I don't know how you draw these conclusions from not implementing a ban list. There are so many reasons not to implement bans/restriction; here's a particularly good one: no one wants their child to open a booster pack, see Mewtwo EX, get all excited about having one (or a second copy), but then be told in a tournament that they can't use it.
Banlisting/restricting is sort of iffy practice IMO in the first place. The game shouldn't require help from the outside to be balanced.
So, you do realize that multiple archetypes function just fine without Mewtwo, right? Darkrai/Hydreigon likes it, but doesn't need it. Garchomp doesn't need it. Empoleon doesn't need it. These three decks also generally trade favorably with it.
Ace Spec is just deceptive restricted listing. I don't like it in that way. I do like that they're continuing to show foresight by PRINTING them as one-of, rather than making it look like they had to correct something after it was broken.
Not all cards are meant to be competitive. Some are meant to be silly. 300 HP sounds pretty silly to me.
A ban list accomplishes some of the things rotation accomplishes, without being nearly as simple, clear, or professional. I vastly prefer the rotation, thanks.
Because the equivalent concepts of evasion and OHKO moves don't apply. Double Team is clearly a broken move in singles play (and debatably in doubles play, I don't know). There are definitely many ways around it, not just Aerial Ace/etc - you can Roar, Haze, or even Psych Up - and some of those ways (Roar) are pretty commonly used. But a fan-controlled metagame can do what it wants, and people decided - reasonably - that Double Team is just obnoxious and they don't want to deal with it.
Mewtwo EX isn't really obnoxious anymore. Might have been last format, but not anymore. It's easily dealt with now. Honestly I really don't understand why people still complain about it, when several archetypes don't run it, and at least one dedicated counter card now exists (Sigilyph).
Double Team requires you to run one slot on your team to implement and destroys entire other teams that aren't running multiple counters (or one very well-played counter). Mewtwo EX requires a couple of spaces and some tactical shenanigans to work correctly (Scramble Switch for example), and is countered by carefully played D/H, a well timed Sigilyph drop, or by itself. These concepts aren't equivalent.
You've completely lost me. Please elaborate: what decks "just outright win"?
Maybe Pokemon likes being unique?
Sidedecks are a little complex of a mechanism. Lots of Juniors are going to be confused by it - not the competitive serious Juniors, mind you, I'm sure they'll be just fine. Pokemon is unusual because of the market it needs to cater to, and it doesn't have the same privileges of other card games for that reason.
Good one! That's a pretty funny joke.
Kayle
Active Member
MOST overrated is certainly an overstatement but he's got a valid point.
The scary thing about Mewtwo was being able to drop it and go LOL OHKO ON EVERYTHING EVER. No chance to prepare, no chance to take it out before it could destroy you, it just hit the field and won the game.
It can't do that without Shaymin. You have to charge it manually. (D/H can get around this but is usually better off just swinging with Darkrai or Hydreigon anyway. Usually. Not always.)
Otaku
Active Member
No.
No emoticon with that because I don't want to seem angry, just firm. Do you know why Pokémon doesn't have a "Ban" list? I don't either, but I can hazard an educated guess. My experience with games that use them is that Ban lists don't work well, often at all! I find this so important, I will hold off responding to your other points.
This is why I try to lay out my arguments carefully. My experience with Ban Lists is that they are almost always behind. The game was designed to be balanced in a certain fashion. When the game is out of balance, it may be because a card/combo/deck is more powerful than expected, but you have to ask yourself "Why?"
Sometimes cards are balanced but distribution issues or player perception/tastes result in something being played more than expected. Sometimes counters are just slow in coming (Mewtwo EX loses some power with each set). As I keep stating most "problems" with Mewtwo EX are in no way unique to Mewtwo EX, but are about game direction and design. It makes no sense to ban it when a replacement is either already out (and just overlooked) or would be released in the next set.
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vaporeon
Moderator
See Otaku, other games that use ban list work very well with them and use them to balance the format. Not sure how you got that they don't work well.
Tagrineth, you know what I mean. I was talking about having a list that restricts over having a card saying you can't have more then one. Ace specs cards are just only 1 in a deck, no matter which one you use as with a ban list, you use/dont use whats on it.
Tagrineth, you know what I mean. I was talking about having a list that restricts over having a card saying you can't have more then one. Ace specs cards are just only 1 in a deck, no matter which one you use as with a ban list, you use/dont use whats on it.
Otaku
Active Member
How exactly do you prove this, that a Ban List is "good" for Pokémon?
Pokémon has many "unique" aspects not applicable to others. We have TecH for a reason; in Pokémon such a thing makes sense and works well. This is less true and sometimes flat out false for other games.
Nearly all of my Ban List experience comes from Yu-Gi-Oh... but while I can accept that their execution of such a thing was at least less than ideal, I don't see how the fundamental concept works well... and I already explained why.
So you tell me why it works.
Why does removing one card that is meant to balance out other card not result in further imbalance?
Why does it not take prohibitively long to adjust Ban Lists, since it is a response to a mistake (or at least unexpected player reaction)? The cards the banned card balanced out have to also be banned, or a new counter introduced to take the banned card's place. Sets in the works have to quickly be adjusted: I find it just silly to think that a single set is designed at a time. A time has to be selected to update the bans, and since this is reactionary, it has to be after the new set was released (at least with respect to problem cards in the new set).
This is before addressing how it affects the players as well; how hard it will be to explain to little children that sets still legal have cards that can't be played... and how for we older players we will never know when our favorite card will be affected by the Ban List. I know that is a lot of bold text, but the whole thought is very important; I had plenty of decks ruined because it turns out some piece of support (not the main focus) was "broken" when combined with something else.
tl;dr: Note that if you did read the whole thing, this contains my summary. I've seen Ban Lists fail almost totally. When used in Magic: The Gathering they... function. Arguably the best TCG and the best TCG organization can only make them functional. I do favor bans... when playing Base Set Through Fossil, for fun. For Modified, only when it is absolutely necessary and here, it simply isn't.
Pokémon has many "unique" aspects not applicable to others. We have TecH for a reason; in Pokémon such a thing makes sense and works well. This is less true and sometimes flat out false for other games.
Nearly all of my Ban List experience comes from Yu-Gi-Oh... but while I can accept that their execution of such a thing was at least less than ideal, I don't see how the fundamental concept works well... and I already explained why.
So you tell me why it works.
Why does removing one card that is meant to balance out other card not result in further imbalance?
Why does it not take prohibitively long to adjust Ban Lists, since it is a response to a mistake (or at least unexpected player reaction)? The cards the banned card balanced out have to also be banned, or a new counter introduced to take the banned card's place. Sets in the works have to quickly be adjusted: I find it just silly to think that a single set is designed at a time. A time has to be selected to update the bans, and since this is reactionary, it has to be after the new set was released (at least with respect to problem cards in the new set).
This is before addressing how it affects the players as well; how hard it will be to explain to little children that sets still legal have cards that can't be played... and how for we older players we will never know when our favorite card will be affected by the Ban List. I know that is a lot of bold text, but the whole thought is very important; I had plenty of decks ruined because it turns out some piece of support (not the main focus) was "broken" when combined with something else.
tl;dr: Note that if you did read the whole thing, this contains my summary. I've seen Ban Lists fail almost totally. When used in Magic: The Gathering they... function. Arguably the best TCG and the best TCG organization can only make them functional. I do favor bans... when playing Base Set Through Fossil, for fun. For Modified, only when it is absolutely necessary and here, it simply isn't.
vaporeon
Moderator
I'll need to do some more research on ban list and how they affect the game. The huge issue with pokemon is the best of one.
For a ban list to work, there needs to be best of 3 and a side deck. You can't really have one without the other. Not too sure on Yugioh though. While I do play that game, they make way too many overpowered archetypes after they make a ban list and not ban anything until the next format change when its too late. I see thats the problem with ban list.
On another note, I guess pokemon is modeled after the E4 where you have to use what you have on hand and thats it.
For a ban list to work, there needs to be best of 3 and a side deck. You can't really have one without the other. Not too sure on Yugioh though. While I do play that game, they make way too many overpowered archetypes after they make a ban list and not ban anything until the next format change when its too late. I see thats the problem with ban list.
On another note, I guess pokemon is modeled after the E4 where you have to use what you have on hand and thats it.
Otaku
Active Member
Side decks/boards are not a good idea for Pokémon. Pokémon is far too "modular". In a game like Magic: The Gathering the sideboard works (supposedly - I know the fundamentals of that game, barely, and that is it) because of the resource system and (compared to Pokémon) lack of draw/search effects. Again, for emphasis, I know there are draw and search cards in Magic: The Gathering, but the differences between the two systems really come to bear here (e.g. mana costs on everything).
See, the "side deck" doesn't really work all that well for Yu-Gi-Oh, or at least didn't while I played. Oh, having a Side Deck that was well made was vital past the earliest days of the game. However like so many "features" of Yu-Gi-Oh, when the Side Deck 'works', it just makes throws "broken" cards/mechanics at "broken" cards/mechanics. It creates a "fake" balance.... while doing to the game of Yu-Gi-Oh what GeoEdge and vaporeon claim Pokémon Catcher and Mewtwo EX have done to the Pokémon TCG.
You see, like Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh has a much less restrictive resource system... and I almost ended up writing a small article again. If you don't know Yu-Gi-Oh, understand that unless a card's effect (including "costs" written in the "effect text", whether recognized as a cost or part of the effect) plus having an open Spell/Trap Zone are all that restrict Spells and Traps (and some themed monsters). What this ultimately meant for myself (and players like me) is that our creative decks that actually could even remotely compete with the archetypal strategies usually ended up with some "silver bullet" (perhaps "kryptonite" is more apt a description) vulnerability that you'd find... in the Side Deck.
This is the beauty of Pokémon; your deck needs to be your entire deck, and needs to be able to acquit itself against all comers. I know many have said this is impossible and/or leads to the "BDIF" syndrome, and they are half right: the problem is the design/balance issues already present. If we switch back to the +X Weakness system, a lot of lopsided match-ups go away right then and there. With that change, it just boils down to reasonable cost-reward relationships, be they about acceleration (any), damage-to-Energy, or cost-to-effect (for Abilities, Trainers, and Special Energy).
Adding side-decks will just result in TecH disappearing... being replaced by a sideboard of (however many are allowed) high utility cards or "counter-deck killers". The top decks remain the top decks, possibly even further cementing their hold on that status, while everything else more than likely suffers. With the current format, I'd think side decks would mostly consist of Trainers, and from there Items, give or take some easy to splash, potent Pokémon. Garbodor (BW: Dragons Exalted) would be a first-game trick: with a sideboard, players have room for extra Tool Scrapper! Decks that rely heavily on Special Energy? Crushing Hammer and Enhanced Hammer are also probably sideboard picks. Tornadus EX would also likely love Side Boards. PlusPower might be good there as well.
tl;dr: Again, I am using this more as a summary, but if someone insists on skimming, I am still trying to "play nice" and communicate. Simply put, Ban/Restricted Lists and Side Boards/Decks are both ideas seen in other games, and while they work (or at least function) in a successful game like Magic: The Gathering, that game has resource requirements on pretty much every card but mana (the game's basic resource card). Pokémon would almost certainly end up like Yu-Gi-Oh, where the most powerful card (not Banned) fill decks and side boards/decks. Creative ideas usually get crushed by a generic counter in said side board/deck.
Test and research to identify actual balance issues.
Make known your concerns as widely as possible while supporting them with evidence or logic.
Wait for TPC to listen and institute appropriate changes, and Set Rotation to handle the old mess.
See, the "side deck" doesn't really work all that well for Yu-Gi-Oh, or at least didn't while I played. Oh, having a Side Deck that was well made was vital past the earliest days of the game. However like so many "features" of Yu-Gi-Oh, when the Side Deck 'works', it just makes throws "broken" cards/mechanics at "broken" cards/mechanics. It creates a "fake" balance.... while doing to the game of Yu-Gi-Oh what GeoEdge and vaporeon claim Pokémon Catcher and Mewtwo EX have done to the Pokémon TCG.
You see, like Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh has a much less restrictive resource system... and I almost ended up writing a small article again. If you don't know Yu-Gi-Oh, understand that unless a card's effect (including "costs" written in the "effect text", whether recognized as a cost or part of the effect) plus having an open Spell/Trap Zone are all that restrict Spells and Traps (and some themed monsters). What this ultimately meant for myself (and players like me) is that our creative decks that actually could even remotely compete with the archetypal strategies usually ended up with some "silver bullet" (perhaps "kryptonite" is more apt a description) vulnerability that you'd find... in the Side Deck.
This is the beauty of Pokémon; your deck needs to be your entire deck, and needs to be able to acquit itself against all comers. I know many have said this is impossible and/or leads to the "BDIF" syndrome, and they are half right: the problem is the design/balance issues already present. If we switch back to the +X Weakness system, a lot of lopsided match-ups go away right then and there. With that change, it just boils down to reasonable cost-reward relationships, be they about acceleration (any), damage-to-Energy, or cost-to-effect (for Abilities, Trainers, and Special Energy).
Adding side-decks will just result in TecH disappearing... being replaced by a sideboard of (however many are allowed) high utility cards or "counter-deck killers". The top decks remain the top decks, possibly even further cementing their hold on that status, while everything else more than likely suffers. With the current format, I'd think side decks would mostly consist of Trainers, and from there Items, give or take some easy to splash, potent Pokémon. Garbodor (BW: Dragons Exalted) would be a first-game trick: with a sideboard, players have room for extra Tool Scrapper! Decks that rely heavily on Special Energy? Crushing Hammer and Enhanced Hammer are also probably sideboard picks. Tornadus EX would also likely love Side Boards. PlusPower might be good there as well.
tl;dr: Again, I am using this more as a summary, but if someone insists on skimming, I am still trying to "play nice" and communicate. Simply put, Ban/Restricted Lists and Side Boards/Decks are both ideas seen in other games, and while they work (or at least function) in a successful game like Magic: The Gathering, that game has resource requirements on pretty much every card but mana (the game's basic resource card). Pokémon would almost certainly end up like Yu-Gi-Oh, where the most powerful card (not Banned) fill decks and side boards/decks. Creative ideas usually get crushed by a generic counter in said side board/deck.
Test and research to identify actual balance issues.
Make known your concerns as widely as possible while supporting them with evidence or logic.
Wait for TPC to listen and institute appropriate changes, and Set Rotation to handle the old mess.
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vaporeon
Moderator
Otaku. I now see where you come from with this and why it can't work with Pokemon. I rather Pokemon not become Yugioh. While were talking about balancing future cards, lets talk about the new Hydreigon. There is a lot wrong with this card and kind of falls into the same boat as Magnezon Prime.
If you look at most of the cards in our format now, they are ether beat sticks, supporters or tanks. I mean, it has a very powerful ability, a attack that will ko just about and non ex attack other then the ones with HP less then 140 and 150 HP. The card has a lot of balance issues.
I was playing a game on TCGO and going for a 140 damage attack to ko it, then realized it had 150. It sucked because it retreated to the bench, was maxed potion and then I had to deal with a darkrai. I'd really like to see TPC stop making cards that can do everything.
If you look at most of the cards in our format now, they are ether beat sticks, supporters or tanks. I mean, it has a very powerful ability, a attack that will ko just about and non ex attack other then the ones with HP less then 140 and 150 HP. The card has a lot of balance issues.
I was playing a game on TCGO and going for a 140 damage attack to ko it, then realized it had 150. It sucked because it retreated to the bench, was maxed potion and then I had to deal with a darkrai. I'd really like to see TPC stop making cards that can do everything.