Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Mewtwo ex not as good as most poeple think

Technically, isn't the title of the thread "Mewtwo ex not as good as most poeple think", but you are correct I went down a rabbit trail with card prices.

Getting back on topic, though I don't agree with most of what the topic starter is saying, with correct spelling the statement might be correct. It seems like a lot of people (maybe those oversold on the hype are just the most vocal?) are gushing over it, but I suppose that is true for most top cards. This gives me the perception that it is over-hyped. I am waiting for someone to form "The First Church of Mewtwo" over this thing.

...

Please tell me that hasn't happened yet. -_-'

Still, this is a great, great card, and I don't want to sell it short.
 
Will Mewtwo EX go down in price for States? I keep wondering if it will or just cough up the money and buy a single copy for my deck :)
 
I doubt it will go down much in price before States. If it does well at the ECC it might even get a bit of a spike.

Supply is still relatively limited, and people are holding on to them.
 
How much of a difference will Mewtwo EX make in the deck? Is there an alternative that might work?

If you really think a single copy is all you need to win and you've got the disposable income, you'd probably better pony up the cash now, or if you're a bit daring invest it in boosters and hope to either pull one, or pull enough good cards to trade for one. I may be stingy, [DEL]but I am not stupid[/DEL], but baby_mario is right that the price will likely go up before it comes down... and it may not come down for a while.

Something interesting I noticed was my "budget player's Mewtwo EX" stand in (Regigigas EX) only goes for $10 for the plain version. For that matter, if your deck actually does support one of Kyurem EX, Reshiram EX, or Zekrom EX, the financial savings might be worth running another of them over Mewtwo EX: even if you are investing the same amount of money into your deck you can focus on making sure everything else is the best. :lol:
 
How much of a difference will Mewtwo EX make in the deck? Is there an alternative that might work?

If you really think a single copy is all you need to win and you've got the disposable income, you'd probably better pony up the cash now, or if you're a bit daring invest it in boosters and hope to either pull one, or pull enough good cards to trade for one.

Mewtwo EX makes a world of difference. There's no card that has an attack quite like Mewtwo EX in terms of its flexibility (colorless cost), its potential damage output (very high), its durability (very difficult to OHKO), and its ability to counter Mewtwo EX. This is the conclusion I came to after over a hundred games of testing, trying decks with and without Mewtwo EX. The results are irrefutable, this card is good and irreplaceable in many decks.

It just saves so much space in your deck by having an attacker, wall, and revenge killer all in one. It's flexibility is really unrivaled. Obviously, there are some downsides (the fact that other Mewtwo EX can get a revenge kill on another copy of itself), but Mewtwo EX improves so many matchups across the board.

Sure, there are certain decks that can get away with running no Mewtwo. Durant doesn't need it, but if you take Durant to states, you have to understand that Durant kind of dies to Zekrom variants. Truth can get away with excluding it and Chandelure doesn't need it, but both those decks need at least 2 Tropical Beach (if not 3 or 4), which is more expensive than Mewtwo EX.

The honest truth is, if you are a competitive player that wants to try out different decks for States and Regionals, you need at least 2 copies of Mewtwo EX. Sure, some decks run fine without it, but unless you're ready to run either Durant, you'll need to invest in multiple copies of either Mewtwo EX ($65) or Tropical Beach ($90).

Look, hobbies sometimes can be expensive. In this particular hobby, if you want to be competitive, you'll need to invest some money.
 
To be clear, I was questioning whether or not specific decks might be able to get by with another Pokemon EX. I am not trying to imply that Mewtwo EX is bad. It may be the single most powerful Pokemon this format, and of course it might truly be required to win at a major event. I don't believe this is set in stone yet, and thus it is well worth questioning and testing. If you have indeed been doing this, I apologize if I seem dismissive: I am not trying to be. If you stated that earlier or in another place, I am sorry I missed it: please link me, since my own ability to test has been so severely compromised as of late that I freely (but sadly) confess I am running on Theorymon. X_X

From experience I do question the "necessity" of having the supposed "must have" card. I already laid out why:

1) Japan=/=Rest of the world - it's a good indicator, but sometimes things work differently

2) Hyped cards have fallen short before

3) Only one person can win a tournament, only a handful make top cut: if you're not convinced your going to be one of those players anyway, I'd focus on learning how to play without Mewtwo EX: it will improve your skill more in the long run and save you money.

4) I keep pointing out that while in the immediate short run prices are likely to spike, I don't claim to know Nintendo: sometimes an important card for the metagame is practically spammed, sometimes it never gets re-released no matter how much we ask for it.

Please take all of those into account. I don't know any of your personally. If I was talking to someone I knew who for some reason was on the fence, and I knew this person was a prime candidate for making it to Worlds... yes I'd tell them to buy it now if they could afford it, and if they couldn't I'd tell them to find a way to afford it.

I was questioning whether or not a player might legitimately be at least able to consider using a different Pokemon EX in specific decks. Decks where Mewtwo EX isn't giving as good a return as it could. With a source of Psychic Type Energy and some form of acceleration to get it onto Mewtwo EX it can hit for 120 better than Reshiram or Zekrom (plain versions). Of course, most decks aren't going to do that: even if the deck is running Rainbow Energy and/or Prism Energy, that's a trick your reserve for KOs that you simply have to make.

X-Ball is the attack most people are focusing on, and that's 20 points of damage per Energy on both Active Pokemon. So assuming you can change out your Active Pokemon, Mewtwo EX can be a surprise drop from your hand, have a Double Colorless Energy slapped on it (or if in the appropriate deck, other forms of Energy acceleration) and hit hard.

Mewtwo EX should be a problem for plain Zekrom: assuming both have Eviolite, Mewtwo EX hits a Zekrom that just used Bolt Strike (in a hurry, forgive me if I am remembering the wrong name) for 100 points of damage (assuming minimum Energy attachments for both), which after losing 20 points of damage to Eviolite but factoring in the 20 points Zekrom did to itself, is still 100 points of damage.. That Zekrom player can now unload a Bolt Strike into Mewtwo EX for (after Eviolite on both of them) 100 points of damage to Mewtwo EX and another 20 to itself.

Unless the Mewtwo EX has additional support (like retreating to get bounced by Seeker or a Max Potion followed by more Energy acceleration), it can hit Zekrom one more time, then gets taken down itself. Reshiram fairs even better: since it discards two Energy a Mewtwo EX with minimal investment (re: two Energy) only does 60 points of damage, or 40 points if Reshiram has Eviolite, because there is only a total of three Energy between them. Again assuming Mewtwo EX is coming up after Reshiram has unloaded on something else, Mewtwo EX will have to invest more Energy or Reshiram gets at least one shot at Mewtwo EX, probably two and maybe even three!

Yes, Mewtwo EX isn't reliant upon support for these direct match-ups, but at the same time one can't ignore this is how those two Basic Pokemon are most likely to be encountered, in decks that fully support them. I don't expect some of the most popular recent decks to poof away overnight.

This brings me to my main point: while I don't consider Reshiram EX or Zekrom EX to be anywhere near Mewtwo EX's league, that's because they are very dependent upon their decks for support. Can't just toss them into anything with Double Colorless Energy or non-matching Energy Type acceleration, ya know? In a tournament setting, where either is backed by the appropriate deck, skilled players should at least be able to approach trading Mewtwo EX for Prizes with them. Mewtwo EX comes up and eats something (that hopefully already earned a Prize, given past experiences with those decks), and either Reshiram EX or Zekrom EX can leave Mewtwo EX reeling.

Reshiram EX
or Zekrom EX are probably going to take a big hit back, but again, they aren't a super splashable utility attacker, but a big [DEL]ugly[/DEL] pretty beatstick. Likely Mewtwo EX and whatever it faces will have Eviolite, so that means Mewtwo EX is getting slammed for 130 points of damage that first hit. With minimal Energy requirements for X-Ball, it hits Reshiram EX for (6 x 20 -20) 100 points of damage, so even if Reshiram EX hit itself for (50-2) 30 points of damage, it isn't gone yet and can finish off Mewtwo EX. Zekrom EX fairs better since it discards two of its own Energy, hitting Mewtwo EX just as hard but in the same circumstances only taking 60 points of damage.

Am I going with circumstances favorable to those two Pokemon EX over Mewtwo EX? Yes, but its favorable because they are being put into decks that favor them, not splashed about into anything. If Mewtwo EX is run alongside Energy acceleration it will probably triumph over those two... but bear in mind the cost. A 180 HP Pokemon with an Eviolite means that between Mewtwo EX and the Defending Pokemon, X-Ball requires 10 Energy! Even against something with four Energy, that's six total Energy Mewtwo EX has to supply.

Can that be done? Certainly! The cost is Mewtwo EX becoming self-defeating in purpose: a large part of its power comes from it hitting so hard for so little Energy.

tl;dr: Mewtwo EX is really good, but it isn't healing the sick and raising the dead like some people seem to expect of it. It is a very expensive card right now and if you're the type who regularly attends Worlds or at least wins major semi-local events like States, even if you don't have a lot of disposable income it is a good buy. I do believe other alternatives exist, especially for specific decks; Mewtwo EX's strength is in its flexibility, its utility, but in a specialist deck you regularly won't need those things.

Plus any deck that can effectively (re: bust it out fully powered in one turn) run and power up Rayquaza & Deoxys LEGEND should. Best case scenario you get a lot of wins when suddenly you take your last three Prizes in one shot. Worst case scenario you at least get to enjoy the occasional three-for-two deal where you OHKO one Mewtwo EX.
 
My opinion now, FWIW:

1. Mewtwo-EX really is that good
2. Running one Mewtwo often isn't enough. Being outgunned in a Mewtwo war is a very bad thing

Sorry.
 
I cant get hold of a Mewtwo in time for states, or any EX for that matter. And and Im trying for a worlds invite. So Im going to play Eelzone so ai can still ko EXes.
Posted with Mobile style...
 
tl;dr: Mewtwo EX is really good, but it isn't healing the sick and raising the dead like some people seem to expect of it. It is a very expensive card right now and if you're the type who regularly attends Worlds or at least wins major semi-local events like States, even if you don't have a lot of disposable income it is a good buy. I do believe other alternatives exist, especially for specific decks; Mewtwo EX's strength is in its flexibility, its utility, but in a specialist deck you regularly won't need those things.

Plus any deck that can effectively (re: bust it out fully powered in one turn) run and power up Rayquaza & Deoxys LEGEND should. Best case scenario you get a lot of wins when suddenly you take your last three Prizes in one shot. Worst case scenario you at least get to enjoy the occasional three-for-two deal where you OHKO one Mewtwo EX.

*emphasis added

My opinion now, FWIW:

1. Mewtwo-EX really is that good
2. Running one Mewtwo often isn't enough. Being outgunned in a Mewtwo war is a very bad thing

Sorry.

This. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying to you. :frown:

So let me get this straight... Mewtwo EX really is healing the sick and raising the dead? :eek:

No?

Do you just mean that it is incredibly powerful and if you don't have a way to effectively deal with it (which right now means your own copy) you're in trouble? Okay. I think there might be some alternatives, but it's me: I get to play a lot more Theorymon than Pokemon and as such I can accept that I am wrong. I am not getting enough information to be exactly sure how Mewtwo EX cannot reasonably be taken down by another Pokemon EX, unless some of my base assumptions are false.

For example, if most players are opening with Mewtwo EX and hoping their opponent's either have one less copy than them or no copies at all... okay then I am flat out wrong. Well, still not performing miracles, but even I know that means it is easily winning games. :rolleyes:

Feel free to go into more detail about your matches: I need all the help I can get. >.> It doesn't change my views about shelling out over $60 in cash for it, but that view is unrelated to Mewtwo EX itself.
 
So let me get this straight... Mewtwo EX really is healing the sick and raising the dead? :eek:

It's healing sick matches and raising lost games from the dead, if that's what you mean :thumb:
 
Its also not responsible for the holocaust, the banking crisis Greek debt, my bad eyesight..... Adding the spurious not raising the dead destroyed any point you might have been trying to make.
 
How so No Poke? I said people were overrating it to ridiculous degrees. People are practically deifying Mewtwo EX. Most then can't explain when they lose a game despite having it (unless it was against another Mewtwo EX), but the problem remains: Mewtwo EX is a great card, but it doesn't win the game single-handed.

I allow that an overeager novice player can make that mistake, and even a few over-hyped vet, but it's the degree to which I am seeing that raises concern.

As for destroying my point, NoPoke, I carefully laid out my points in detail. If one use of humorous hyperbole is enough to disqualify my opinion to you, I suspect that was a forgone conclusion. If it was my tongue-in-cheek response to what I considered humorous phrasing from baby_mario and psychup2034 (given my own attempt at levity), I think you'd better be more concerned about how you present yourself over how I present myself.
 
Mewtwo EX is a great card, but it doesn't win the game single-handed

This is absolutely true of course. It's completely possible to win games without Mewtwo against decks that do have it.

Here's the problem though: to do that you are overcoming a disadvantage. The person with the Mewtwo(s) has the upper hand. Now I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to go into a game thinking 'my deck could be better than it is' if I can possibly help it. I mean, we all try to make our decks as good as they can be in every other way, don't we?

And right now, for virtually every competitive deck not called Durant, that means Mewtwo.
 
baby_mario, you have persuaded me that is at least almost the whole truth, if not the whole truth. My reservation has been that perhaps a few key decks legitimately can make do without Mewtwo EX by using another Pokemon EX that has better synergy with the deck. While I am beginning to be convinced it is unlikely, some very specific decks might actually do better with a different Pokemon EX in place of Mewtwo EX. Maybe.

Disregarding my own personal values for cards, even if one is a striving to build a competitive deck, if their budget is short they will likely have to innovate or lose. Mewtwo EX is that powerful... and expensive. I am curious: one of my comments that probably was lost due to the length of post was was the question of what a player should do if said player must choose: burn the entire budget on Mewtwo EX, or focus on making the rest of the deck as competitive as possible. Not just to baby_mario, but does anyone feel that if someone is in this kind of situation, it would be better to optimize the rest of his or her deck? Perhaps this situation is completely unrealistic, since someone on a very strict budget may need to focus on Durant or simply not playing.

I have been given the impression that Mewtwo EX does win on its own, or at least with the minimal required support to have a competent deck. That is instead of running it in an otherwise complete deck as the current top opener/closer/back-up attacker. I don't think this represents an educated opinion, but that doesn't mean it isn't common. It may be as simple as ol' Otaku getting bogged down by semantics. >.>
 
Disregarding my own personal values for cards, even if one is a striving to build a competitive deck, if their budget is short they will likely have to innovate or lose. Mewtwo EX is that powerful... and expensive. I am curious: one of my comments that probably was lost due to the length of post was was the question of what a player should do if said player must choose: burn the entire budget on Mewtwo EX, or focus on making the rest of the deck as competitive as possible. Not just to baby_mario, but does anyone feel that if someone is in this kind of situation, it would be better to optimize the rest of his or her deck? Perhaps this situation is completely unrealistic, since someone on a very strict budget may need to focus on Durant or simply not playing.

That's a very interesting question.

On the face of it, my answer is 'no'. It is not worth blowing your whole budget on a Mewtwo-EX if that means not having enough money to drop on a consistent Trainer engine, or the correct Pokemon lines.

In reality though, this situation will hardly ever arise. Most players will already have their staple trainers and will have few problems getting other Pokemon needed for a deck.

My advice would be to play the best deck that you can afford to play rather than a 'budget' version of an expensive deck. See the budget version will almost always lose out in a mirror match, and will not be performing at full capacity against anything else. I would much rather play something different, but with an optimum list.

I have been given the impression that Mewtwo EX does win on its own, or at least with the minimal required support to have a competent deck. That is instead of running it in an otherwise complete deck as the current top opener/closer/back-up attacker. I don't think this represents an educated opinion, but that doesn't mean it isn't common. It may be as simple as ol' Otaku getting bogged down by semantics. >.>

Mewtwo can win on it's own, as proved by Esa at the ECC. He made top 16 (only losing narrowly) with a deck that ran no other Pokemon besides 4 Celebi Prime and 3 Mewtwo.
 
Fascinating. See, I managed to miss that bit of information and it makes a world of difference, especially because before reading it I would (and indeed have) expressed my doubts that Mewtwo EX can carry a deck on its own.

Actually I still have some doubts, but its only been back to "can Mewtwo EX support its own deck when most players have had time to fully prepare?" I didn't play at the ECC (considering I can't even afford to travel to a League in my own country :p), so if someone wants to link me to a good tournament report or just inform me of how many people were packing the two or three copies Mewtwo EX that are a staple (unless a substitute can be found, which seems less and less likely)?
 
Esa's report is right here on the Gym.

Out of the Top 8 of the ECC, only one deck was not running Mewtwo (that was Mees's Mew Toolbox). All of the Top 4 were playing it. As to how many were running it overall, I've heard varying reports. One person told me that every deck they faced in 8 rounds of Swiss (except 1 Durant) played at least 1 copy of Mewtwo, but others have said differently.

Given that the ECC is the only major pre-states tournament, it seems likely that it will lead to an increase in Mewtwo use, at least in the short term.
 
Well that pretty much completely undermines any serious arguments I have. Because it's me I am still allowing that there might be some counters out there, but really anyone competitive is going to just go for the Mewtwo EX itself since its established as working, instead of taking a chance that their "miracle counter" no one else is playing is actually undiscovered and not a proven failure. =P

I thank all of you for your patience and information. Better to learn in humility than continue on in proud folly.
 
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