Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Modern Haymaker?

H

Huxmonchan

New Member
After more than 10 years I'm returning to the game and my head is spinning from all the new cards. I'd like to play in Modified but was a big fan of Haymaker decks in my day. My pokes of choice then were Hitmonchans, Electabuzz, and Dragonair. Are there any modern equivalents to the damage output of Base1 Chan and Buzz? A modern equivalent of Base1 Dragonair's Hyper Beam?
 
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Eh...I'm not really sure, but there is a deck called 6 corners, which utilizes big HP basics that do a lot of damage for little energy. Look up Virizion, Terrakion, Cobalion, Victini, and Kyurem from noble victories as well as Mewtwo EX from Next Destinies and zekrom from black and white.
 
^ this, and donphan and dragons would be the closest. Don't kid yourself though, most "haymaker" type decks nowadays aren't tier 1
 
Griftiest said:
^ this, and donphan and dragons would be the closest. Don't kid yourself though, most "haymaker" type decks nowadays aren't tier 1
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While that wouldn't surprise me at all playing a deck type I'm familiar with would help me get a feel for the game again and what kind of changes/tuning will be necessary.
 
Well there are cards which can almost do the same things like the old haymaker cards.

Sawk BW is basically a better Hitmonchan, Zangoose COL is like Scyther. I am not sure why Electabuzz was so strong, but emolga is almost like electabuzz
Accelgor from Noble Victories can discard energies if you flip heads and you dont need 4 energies to attack. There are so many cards which can discard energies if you flip heads
 
Ace- said:
Well there are cards which can almost do the same things like the old haymaker cards.

Sawk BW is basically a better Hitmonchan, Zangoose COL is like Scyther. I am not sure why Electabuzz was so strong, but emolga is almost like electabuzz
Accelgor from Noble Victories can discard energies if you flip heads and you dont need 4 energies to attack. There are so many cards which can discard energies if you flip heads
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I'm liking the looks of Sawk, is he in any theme decks? Electabuzz was used as a secondary sweeper for Chan in case of weakness/resistance match-ups, Emolga doesn't quite fit the bill in terms of destructive power..

From what I've seen of the current sets energy removal is no longer a sure thing like it was in the WOTC sets. In the early days of the game I was running with two Dragonairs in the deck along with 4x Energy Removal and 4x Super Energy Removal with a LOT of success. It doesn't look like there is any 100% energy control in the current environment though so that is a major cut against the strategies I used to employ.

The upside is - holy heck, there are a lot more options when it comes to offensive mons. It used to be Chan/Scyther/Buzz and those were your options for hard hitting basics.

EDIT: Just discovered Drill Run Excadrill in Emerging Powers, I think I'll experiment with him.
 
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i dont think sawk isnt in a BW theme deck, but it is one of the cheap rares.

There are some cards which can discard energies. Crushing Hammer is a worse ER and Lost Remover is a ER for special energies. Excadrill is slow in my opinion because you need 3 energy cards. Pinsir doesnt do any damage but you can discard up to 2 energies (use vicitini with the ability to increase the % of discarding energies)

However discarding energies isnt that strong anymore because there are cards which can attach energies from the discard pile to a pokemon. Furthermore many pokemon dont need many energy cards to attack
 
Huxmonchan said:
From what I've seen of the current sets energy removal is no longer a sure thing like it was in the WOTC sets.
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Oh dear god, I played back when it all first came out and remember coming back to the game at my first league with Raindance blastoise 4 years ago with energy removal... They threatened to kick me out :biggrin:

But if you're looking for a competetive style haymaker, look at any of the new big basics. Its just like the old haymaker, same energy cost compared to WoTC, just now they hit harder and have more HP.
 
SUPER CHAR said:
Oh dear god, I played back when it all first came out and remember coming back to the game at my first league with Raindance blastoise 4 years ago with energy removal... They threatened to kick me out :biggrin:

But if you're looking for a competetive style haymaker, look at any of the new big basics. Its just like the old haymaker, same energy cost compared to WoTC, just now they hit harder and have more HP.
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ROFL that's awesome, my youngest sister used to run a Raindance deck- it was almost required in those days to carry 4 ERs in your deck just to stay competitive. I have to wonder how my old Haymaker would do in the current environment.
 
Hello Huxmonchan. Sounds like you've been out of the game quite some time. Well I've got some good news and some bad news: Pokemon has changed. ;)

Right now the game is at an interesting point: a lot of rules tweaking done over the years was undone in the interest of making the game more "user friendly" to newer players. I am curious as to exactly when you bowed out of playing: your comments about enjoying Base Set Dragonair lead me to believe it was probably pretty early in the game's life cycle.

I'd love for you to let us know how much you've learned since coming back. In many ways, this current format is a combination of two older ones, just with higher HP scores and higher damage output.

I have to agree with Psychup2034: traditional Haymaker Pokemon just wouldn't cut it in this format. To give you an idea, here are four Pokemon that update three classics that were dominant when released in the Base Set.

Base Set Hitmonchan's update: Sawk

I know of no competitive decks that use Sawk, even though he is literally just Hitmonchan with 20 more HP and a less expensive second attack! We even have a format where Fighting Weakness is a pretty common sight.

Base Set Blastoise's update HeartGold/SoulSilver Feraligator

This card has struggled to get a competitive deck going. Its HP is just 10 under the modern maximum for Stage 2 Pokemon, and it has an attack that is better than Blastoise's as well (though it requires one more Energy to use). It even has a better Weakness (Grass Pokemon aren't doing so well right now, but Lightning Types are quite potent).

Base Set Blastoise's other successor Black & White Emboar

Even with Emboar being pretty popular, Rain Dance decks have struggled. It doesn't hurt that Emboar can attach just as much Fire Energy as Feraligatr can Water Energy, but Emboar has 10 more HP, a reasonable attack, and can attach Fire Energy to any Type of Pokemon!

Base Set Electabuzz's superior successor Black & White Zekrom

Zekrom has 130 HP, the maximum for a Basic Pokemon right now. This format has both :lightning: Type Energy acceleration and Double Colorless Energy, so not only can you hit with Outrage (20 +10 per damage counter on Zekrom) first turn, but Bolt Strike can be used the very first turn of the game with the right combo. Bolt Strike does hit Zekrom for 40 points of damage (instead of just 10 on a bad coin toss), but it also hits the Defending Pokemon for 120 points of damage. I am biased since I get to write for the site, but Pojo rated Zekrom the second best card released in 2011. Zekrom has been a major part of this format.

So in short, your Haymaker Pokemon wouldn't do so hot. The main strength of a classic deck like Haymaker against a modern one is all in the Trainers, which would present quite a challenge to the average deck in this format which isn't used to Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal. Still, even with those a lot of decks would still have the advantage.
 
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If you wanted to use your old cards today, I think your best bet would be some like Mr. Mime, which can essentially stop many decks dead in their tracks. As Otaku said the classic trainers are what would (hopefully) keep you afloat. Cleffa is definitely playable (the nerfed one we have now is a staple in most modified decks) Slowking may still be playable too. Basically, the power creep in this game has gotten really bad. Compare the classic Mewtwo with the modern one for example. As far as modified haymaker goes, 6 Corners is by far your best bet. The strategies are almost identical. As an aside, although he may look appealing, Sawk isn't a very good card. In the current format a retreat cost of two is generally considered high!
 
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Oh, Neo Genesis Slowking isn't just still playable, it is still broken. Part of me would love to see TPCi use a re-release with the Japanese wording to errata the old version. Its Pokemon Power truly is incredibly powerful; you'd think perhaps its small stature (relative to modern Stage 1 Pokemon) or abysmal attacks would offset it, but you simply never attack with Slowking, so it doesn't matter. Even with modern day Trainers, he should be easy to spam (just not first turn): Pokemon Collector for three Slowpoke. Next turn, besides just using a Supporter to draw for it, Slowking is a legal Heavy Ball target.

Something I really want to stress though is a Haymaker deck is composed of only Basic Pokemon. So no Haymaker uses Slowking. Cleffa (of Neo Genesis) and Tyrogue (Neo Discovery) didn't show up in Haymaker decks until their decline, and quite frankly are or at least were nearly universal in most formats they've appeared in. The only possible exception might be modern Unlimited, because of the nature of specific donk decks that don't actually score the OHKO via an attack, but by spamming a coming-into-play effect that places damage counters. Instead of becoming super stallers they become easy prey.

You are correct, Six Corners is often built (perhaps is supposed to be built as) a "modern Haymaker", or more accurately a modern Potpourri deck. Potpourri decks are/were a sub-type of Haymaker; specifically a Haymaker that tries to hit as many "colors" (Types) as possible. It is somewhat astounding the deck is almost as old as Haymaker, dating back to the days of just having the Base Set! In the modern format I would think it would fit the sensibilities of a "retro player" quiet well!
 
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