More on the topic of "declumping"

[NoPoke]

I am not happy if players are separating pairs. A pair is not a clump.

Once a game is underway I am not happy if a player is spending a lot of time declumping because decks, even with poor mid game shuffles, should not have that many consecutive triples and quads that will be candidates for declumping. Why? Because games are supposed to start with a sufficient shuffle and a sufficient shuffle will reduce the number of triples and quads to a low frequency or it was not a sufficient shuffle in the first place.

So if mid game a player starts moving five or six cards around because they are declumping then I would most likely tell them not to do that in future. Sorry Vaporeon but what you have sometimes described sounds suspicious to me and would get me watching your actions. Declumping is not an excuse that covers any and every action that players do before they shuffle.

But that diverts the thread to mid game shuffles which is not the topic under discussion.

 

[psychup2034]

I am not happy if players are separating pairs. A pair is not a clump.

Once a game is underway I am not happy if a player is spending a lot of time declumping because decks, even poorly shuffled ones, will not have that many consecutive triples and quads that will be candidates for declumping.

So if mid game a player starts moving five or six cards around because they are declumping then I would most likely tell them not to do that in future.

I completely agree. However, I would ask him to not do that as well, but I have no power to stop him because what he's doing is completely within the rules if it is done in a timely fashion.

(Source)
"Q. I was playing with this guy and he rearranged the order of the cards in his deck prior to shuffle it, would this be allowed in a tournament?
A. Yes but you would have the right to shuffle it yourself or cut it as well if you were uncomfortable with his shuffling method. (Sep 14, 2000 WotC Chat, Q125)"

In fact, I've gotten called out for slowing down the game for shuffling my opponent's deck sufficiently after my opponent massively declumped (in Top 4 of a major event).

I understand that declumping cannot be banned because of the difficulty in enforcement of such a rule. However, I think that all judges need to give a sufficient amount of time for randomization after a declump has happened, especially mid-game. I don't think that a 15 second shuffle is unreasonable after a declump, because that's the amount of time it takes to get 5 riffles in without damaging the sleeves.

 

[signofzeta]

Let's just say if you are "trying hard" to declump, that is, exactly 5 cards from the discard pile stacked on top of 5 cards from the main deck, with one of the benched pokemon sandwiched in between, then it may seem that someone else may think you are cheating, but really, any sort of declumping is never cheating if you shuffle the correct way afterward. Doing it this way takes tons of time away, and to me, I just want to play the game. So instead, I do what I describe in the next paragraph.

If you declump in such a way that you just pick a pile of cards from the discard pile, put it on a pile of cards from the main deck, then put more piles of discard on the bench, on the main deck, then maybe add a couple of unclaimed prizes, then I don't think that is really cheating, because that person isn't trying to add sort of a pattern to the deck. When you make the piles, you just pick some amount of cards off the previous game's discard, or the main deck. Then you put the piles in a different order, then you shuffle. The piles could be 5 cards, 8 cards, 12 cards, 20 cards, it doesn't matter, because you are just gripping and grabbing a handful of cards. I call this the lazy declump. You aren't really putting to much effort into declumping in this case.

You know what's the best (in a negative sense) cheating method? You know those silly holo cards that warp all the time, even in sleeves? When you cut your deck, you can have that holo card as the top card. I tried NOT to do it, but it is impossible. Every time I cut the deck, that holo card is always on top, unless you have multiple holos in deck. This is more prevalent when you use Theme Decks as is. But sometimes, the holos don't warp as much. Same thing with Yugioh structure decks. Haven't experienced it with magic intro packs... yet. This kind of stuff also happens if the other 59 cards in the theme deck are all warped, but the main holo card isn't, like in my Power Play deck, the 59 cards are warped, except for the holo Krookodile, and even if I put them in sleeves, when you look at the side of the deck, you could totally tell where the holo Krookodile is. It is impossible to not notice it, no matter how much you try.

So when your cards start to bend, or a bunch of stuff like that, you can never achieve true randomization. It can never be done. To do so, you basically have to only use cards fresh off the printing presses.

 

[vaporeon]

psychup2034, I refuse to to continue to debate this with you if you see cheating in everyone you play. People like you are the reason I quit playing card games. I know yugioh and magic are not better in most cases but I have never encountered people who have cheated or claim people cheat like I have in all my years of Pokemon.

Your values to me are against The Spirit of the Game in many categories. You refuse to refrain from calling declumping as stacking and you think everyone you play is a cheater.

I am not happy if players are separating pairs. A pair is not a clump.

Once a game is underway I am not happy if a player is spending a lot of time declumping because decks, even with poor mid game shuffles, should not have that many consecutive triples and quads that will be candidates for declumping. Why? Because games are supposed to start with a sufficient shuffle and a sufficient shuffle will reduce the number of triples and quads to a low frequency or it was not a sufficient shuffle in the first place.

So if mid game a player starts moving five or six cards around because they are declumping then I would most likely tell them not to do that in future. Sorry Vaporeon but what you have sometimes described sounds suspicious to me and would get me watching your actions. Declumping is not an excuse that covers any and every action that players do before they shuffle.

But that diverts the thread to mid game shuffles which is not the topic under discussion.

You play the game the way you want to and I play the game the way I want to. As long as we both follow the rules, there should not be a problem. Once you look into your deck, you can do what you want. I don't care if someone moves around every card in their deck. As long as they shuffle and I shuffle, there should be no problem. I'm tired of people saying "you ether play the game my way or no way at all". I'm also tired of this elitist attitude everyone seems to have lately. Just shuffle the deck. its not that hard.

 

[baby mario]

You play the game the way you want to and I play the game the way I want to. As long as we both follow the rules, there should not be a problem. Once you look into your deck, you can do what you want. I don't care if someone moves around every card in their deck. As long as they shuffle and I shuffle, there should be no problem. I'm tired of people saying "you ether play the game my way or no way at all". I'm also tired of this elitist attitude everyone seems to have lately. Just shuffle the deck. its not that hard.

We don't get to decide how the game is played. We don't get to play the game according to our own ideas of what is fair.

We play the game according to the standards in the rules as they are applied by the head judge.

NoPoke is the head guy for Pokemon in the UK and has judged at Worlds for many years. If he says something would make him suspicious you are probably better off listening than just saying 'no! I play the game in my own way!'.

Your choice, but personally I prefer not to do anything that a very experienced judge would call suspicious.

 

[vaporeon]

We don't get to decide how the game is played. We don't get to play the game according to our own ideas of what is fair.

We play the game according to the standards in the rules as they are applied by the head judge.

NoPoke is the head guy for Pokemon in the UK and has judged at Worlds for many years. If he says something would make him suspicious you are probably better off listening than just saying 'no! I play the game in my own way!'.

Your choice, but personally I prefer not to do anything that a very experienced judge would call suspicious.

I also don't believe in giving myself a disadvantage. I will declump if my deck get clunky. Because I play inconsistent decks, if I feel the need to put my deck in Pokemon, trainer and energy order according to my deck list and shuffle it so my deck can perform better the next round, I will. All this is still according to the rules.

A person who warms up before a exercise will get a better work out then the person who did not. A person who studies well for a test will get a better score then those who did not. The person who changes the oil in their car will live longer and have better emission then the person who does not do it often. I can go on with that forever. A player who refreshes their deck after every round will have better deck performance overall over the person who did not.

The only advantage gained is that one person will experience better draws most of the time. Everything was done with in the rules. I get my absolute best draws in round 1 of the tournament each time. Thats because I go into round 1 with the way my deck was after deck check and you mean to tell me I'm not allowed to experience that every round? If you choose not to do then then its your own fault. Everything we do is within the rules yet you all say its cheating and or stacking.

Head Judge of not, I play the game my way and not their was as long as its within the rules. We are individuals and should play as such. We play different deck, flip coins differently and shuffle differently. I'm not going to conform people deck search standards.

 

[baby mario]

You might find you have a problem if you don't conform to a head judge's deck search standards.

I don't like analogies in general because they just distract from the real issue with a load of meaningless waffle. Yes, if you change your oil your car will last longer. That's great and no-one would argue against that. But this is not a car, it's a card game. There are a lot of things a person could do to ensure than their deck runs great (just like the car) throughout the tournament, but they shouldn't because it's cheating.

Has anyone ever suggested that studying and car maintenance are cheating?

 

[signofzeta]

Seriously, if you're a judge, and you see someone trying to stack, rather than banning them, or DQing them, um, do this simple task. Shuffle their deck. If the owner of that deck refuses, then you can DQ them for all I care. Sheesh.

Declumping, stacking, and sorting of cards will be negated after a good shuffle. If you believe that the deck still seems stacked after the stacking, then it is because of the poor shuffle. Either way, if the deck wasn't stacked, it's still a poor shuffle, provided the same person shuffles the same way. You get 2 guys. Guy A stacks to give themselves an advantage, guy B stacks to give themselves a disadvantage. Most likely, in your case, Guy A will be disqualified, while guy B won't, even though they pulled the same methods, but in reality they either both should be disqualified or they both shouldn't be disqualified. This time, Guy A declumps, and gets a good hand some of the time, while guy B gets a poor hand every time, or a hand that is reminiscent to the previous game most of the time. In your case, Guy A is cheating, while Guy B isn't cheating, and therefore Guy A should be disqualified, when both players had the same poor shuffling skills, and BOTH decks aren't randomized.

Unless there is a STANDARD as to how cards should be ordered in your deck before each game, I suggest that nobody gets disqualified for re-ordering their cards before the actual shuffle.

The rule states that the deck should be sufficiently randomized. Declumping, stacking, sorting before the shuffle does not make the deck any more or less random. You can stack your deck, but once you try to randomize it, any form of stacking is negated.

Apparently, some people don't get this, and proceed to disqualify people for "stacking thier decks", but really, they should probably be disqualified for poor shuffling, or refusing to do a good shuffle.

And Why don't you turn [vaporeon] loose?

 

[baby mario]

Seriously, if you're a judge, and you see someone trying to stack, rather than banning them, or DQing them, um, do this simple task. Shuffle their deck. If the owner of that deck refuses, then you can DQ them for all I care. Sheesh.

And Why don't you turn [vaporeon] loose?

If you're a judge and you see someone stacking, you have just caught them cheating.

So you are suggesting that the judge should then offer to cover up their cheating?

Sheesh is right

 

[vaporeon]

You might find you have a problem if you don't conform to a head judge's deck search standards.

I don't like analogies in general because they just distract from the real issue with a load of meaningless waffle. Yes, if you change your oil your car will last longer. That's great and no-one would argue against that. But this is not a car, it's a card game. There are a lot of things a person could do to ensure than their deck runs great (just like the car) throughout the tournament, but they shouldn't because it's cheating.

Has anyone ever suggested that studying and car maintenance are cheating?

No they have not. Its the best analogy I can compare with it with out going overboard with it. I did not compare it to lost of life or other hard done to the body. I also did not compare it to retail theft because its not. I'm also not making the argument as if it were cheating. I'm making the argument in the case of better deck performance. Putting my cards in a order to draw better is stacking. Like I said before, stacking to me is putting cards in a order other then random to gain a unfair advantage. At the end of the round, I take my cards and order them according to my deck list and put them into a pile face down and put them in 1 my 1. I do the same thing in tournaments during round one and then riffle shuffle it many times. When I go into the next round, I pile shuffle it and do more riffles and then give it to my opponent to shuffle.

Thats all we are trying to say yet everyone seems to forget the last step that is shuffling. It does not matter about the declump. After every deck search, you shuffle. Sufficient shuffling also applies when you shuffle the deck, not only when you declump. Another thing people seem to forget.

 

[SMP88]

I also don't believe in giving myself a disadvantage. I will declump if my deck get clunky. Because I play inconsistent decks, if I feel the need to put my deck in Pokemon, trainer and energy order according to my deck list and shuffle it so my deck can perform better the next round, I will. All this is still according to the rules.

A person who warms up before a exercise will get a better work out then the person who did not. A person who studies well for a test will get a better score then those who did not. The person who changes the oil in their car will live longer and have better emission then the person who does not do it often. I can go on with that forever. A player who refreshes their deck after every round will have better deck performance overall over the person who did not.

The only advantage gained is that one person will experience better draws most of the time. Everything was done with in the rules. I get my absolute best draws in round 1 of the tournament each time. Thats because I go into round 1 with the way my deck was after deck check and you mean to tell me I'm not allowed to experience that every round? If you choose not to do then then its your own fault. Everything we do is within the rules yet you all say its cheating and or stacking.

Head Judge of not, I play the game my way and not their was as long as its within the rules. We are individuals and should play as such. We play different deck, flip coins differently and shuffle differently. I'm not going to conform people deck search standards.

If you are declumping to give yourself an advantage that is stacking, there's no other way about it. You could shuffle a million times afterwards for all I care, your initial act was done to give yourself an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. You literally just said that you organize your deck so that you get better draws. If you can't understand how this is stacking then I'm not sure what else there is to say.

 

[psychup2034]

psychup2034, I refuse to to continue to debate this with you if you see cheating in everyone you play. People like you are the reason I quit playing card games. I know yugioh and magic are not better in most cases but I have never encountered people who have cheated or claim people cheat like I have in all my years of Pokemon.

Great, then we can continue this debate because I do not see cheating in everyone I play. I only see cheating when it happens, which is clearly the case if a player stacks his/her deck between every round.

Now, please respond to this point:
If someone weren't trying to give themselves an advantage (trying to cheat), why would they stack the deck in the first place (as opposed to just giving it 7 good riffles)? Clearly, a person who stacks their deck understands that doing so could possibly give themselves an advantage in terms of an increased probability of drawing a better distribution of cards, or else they wouldn't bother doing it.

Your values to me are against The Spirit of the Game in many categories. You refuse to refrain from calling declumping as stacking and you think everyone you play is a cheater.

Declumping by definition is a type of stack. However, it is a particular type of stack that is permissible by the rules of Pokemon (and thus currently perfectly legal). When I point out definition of a word, I am not violating the spirit of the game.

When a player stacks their decks between rounds, that seems to be in violation of the "Fairness" aspect of Spirit of the Game.

You play the game the way you want to and I play the game the way I want to.

This is categorically incorrect, as pointed out by baby_mario already. I don't play the game how I want to play it. I play the game according to the rules. As such, I recommend that nobody play the game in the way that they want to, but rather play the game in accordance with the rules.

 

[signofzeta]

If you're a judge and you see someone stacking, you have just caught them cheating.

So you are suggesting that the judge should then offer to cover up their cheating?

Sheesh is right

Ok, so how do people stack? Do they just deliberately place an evolution chain of a pokemon together, and maybe have some energies around it? Newsflash, people do it all the time when they clean up from the previous match, provided they don't declump. Just by stacking the discard pile on top of the main deck, then the bench, then the active pokemon, then the prize cards on top of the active pokemon in itself is already stacking.

If they are truly cheating, then they would refuse the judge shuffling their deck. It's that simple. Once the deck is shuffled, it doesn't matter if the deck is stacked or not.

Declumping, Stacking, or Sorting changes the INITIAL STATE of the deck before it goes through shuffling. Once you sufficiently randomize it, it doesn't matter what the INITIAL STATE of the deck is in.

You have one group, the "false alarm" judges, who believe that declumping is cheating, because it makes the deck less random, and you have the declumpers, who believe that declumping makes the deck more random. Both groups are WRONG. Declumping isn't a shuffling technique. Those who declump, shuffle afterwards. Declumping makes it so that any trace of the previous game is completely eliminated. They basically don't want an unfair advantage because they keep on drawing the same stuff over and over, game after game.

If it makes you happy, there should be this rule.

Before each match, everybody needs to pre-sort their deck, from bottom to top, energies, with all the same energy grouped together, then Trainer, with the same trainers grouped together, and then Pokemon, with the same pokemon grouped together, and the evolution chains grouped together. That way, everybody's initial state of the deck is the same before the shuffle.

So I guess people who don't use sleeves and can't do riffle shuffles should be banned from tournaments then.

 

[baby mario]

If they are truly cheating, then they would refuse the judge shuffling their deck. It's that simple.

Don't be silly. Of course they won't refuse the judge shuffle (that would lead to a DQ). They will just accept that their cheating has failed this game and move on to the next one.

Once the deck is shuffled, it doesn't matter if the deck is stacked or not.

Stacking is cheating. It is an attempt to manipulate the deck. If you stop cheating from working, it doesn't alter the fact that they were trying to cheat. Personally I think that cheats should be DQ'd whether or not their efforts are successful.

So I guess people who don't use sleeves and can't do riffle shuffles should be banned from tournaments then.

This has nothing to do with anything. Are those people somehow incapable of playing without stacking their decks? Ridiculous.

 

[vaporeon]

Great, then we can continue this debate because I do not see cheating in everyone I play. I only see cheating when it happens, which is clearly the case if a player stacks his/her deck between every round.

There is nothing wrong with resetting your deck after the end of each round to insure better deck performance. You see it as cheating. I see it as playing smart.

Now, please respond to this point:
If someone weren't trying to give themselves an advantage (trying to cheat), why would they stack the deck in the first place (as opposed to just giving it 7 good riffles)? Clearly, a person who stacks their deck understands that doing so could possibly give themselves an advantage in terms of an increased probability of drawing a better distribution of cards, or else they wouldn't bother doing it.

They are not trying to gain a unfair advantage. "resetting" your deck is not gaining a unfair advantage. I can reset my deck, do as many riffle shuffles as needed. I tend to 10+, pile shuffle when the next round starts in front of my opponent and shuffle, then offer to them to shuffle. You seem to miss the part where we shuffle.

You're right. A person who stacks does so to get that unfair advantage but one is not being gained here. The only thing gain is better breathing air and a better quality of life.:thumb:

Declumping by definition is a type of stack. However, it is a particular type of stack that is permissible by the rules of Pokemon (and thus currently perfectly legal). When I point out definition of a word, I am not violating the spirit of the game.

Declumping is not a form of stacking. To stack a deck means to know the order of cards in a prearranged order. When you know that order, you can shuffle the deck and maintain some type of order so when you shuffle or your opponent cuts, you'll more or less have the cards you wanted. To stack means you have the intention of deceiving your opponent to gain a unfair advantage.

Declumping does not do this. Declumping just takes 'X' amount of cards and move them to random spots in the deck in a attempt to prevent the clump from existing pre deck shuffle. No advantage is gained because you don't know the location of the card in the deck. Its in a random spot. No one said "this Juniper would be nice next to Hydreion and Rare Candy" They said " I don't need 3 Junipers together because it would suck have to discard all 3".

Too stack does mean to deceive to gain that unfair advantage. Sadly, it does not apply to this.

When a player stacks their decks between rounds, that seems to be in violation of the "Fairness" aspect of Spirit of the Game.

Again, they are not stacking their deck in between rounds. There is nothing wrong with resetting their deck so it can perform better in the next round.

When a player does stack their deck, it directly violates the SOTG. You know what else does? Calling some one a cheater. That player will not have fun if everyone thinks their cheating because you feel they are doing something they have every right to do.

This is categorically incorrect, as pointed out by baby_mario already. I don't play the game how I want to play it. I play the game according to the rules. As such, I recommend that nobody play the game in the way that they want to, but rather play the game in accordance with the rules.

How so? I enjoy this game my own way. I play by the same rules you and Baby Mario play by but I'm also not a fool. I play for fun and to make friends. I don't rule shark but I'm sure you do. That makes you a opponent I'd rather not play with. I've scooped many games because my opponent rule sharks. At that point, the game is not fun and if its not fun, I'm not going to play. You play the game your way and I'll play the game my way. We are both playing within the rules so you'll have to suck it up when playing against someone like me. I'll declump and reset my deck as needed and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[baby mario]

Declumping is not a form of declumping.

Ummmm . . . I respectfully disagree.

 

[vaporeon]

Ummmm . . . I respectfully disagree.

I would disagree with that as well. *Edited*

 

[SMP88]

I also don't believe in giving myself a disadvantage. I will declump if my deck get clunky. Because I play inconsistent decks, if I feel the need to put my deck in Pokemon, trainer and energy order according to my deck list and shuffle it so my deck can perform better the next round, I will. All this is still according to the rules.

The only advantage gained is that one person will experience better draws most of the time. Everything was done with in the rules. I get my absolute best draws in round 1 of the tournament each time. Thats because I go into round 1 with the way my deck was after deck check and you mean to tell me I'm not allowed to experience that every round? If you choose not to do then then its your own fault. Everything we do is within the rules yet you all say its cheating and or stacking.

Bolded above is mine.

There is nothing wrong with resetting your deck after the end of each round to insure better deck performance. You see it as cheating. I see it as playing smart.


They are not trying to gain a unfair advantage. "resetting" your deck is not gaining a unfair advantage. I can reset my deck, do as many riffle shuffles as needed. I tend to 10+, pile shuffle when the next round starts in front of my opponent and shuffle, then offer to them to shuffle. You seem to miss the part where we shuffle.

You say here that you're not trying to get an advantage yet in the posts before that say that you do it to get an advantage of better draws. That's stacking.

Declumping is not a form of stacking. To stack a deck means to know the order of cards in a prearranged order. When you know that order, you can shuffle the deck and maintain some type of order so when you shuffle or your opponent cuts, you'll more or less have the cards you wanted. To stack means you have the intention of deceiving your opponent to gain a unfair advantage.

How can you say you don't have intention when you say the following:

Declumping does not do this. Declumping just takes 'X' amount of cards and move them to random spots in the deck in a attempt to prevent the clump from existing pre deck shuffle. No advantage is gained because you don't know the location of the card in the deck. Its in a random spot. No one said "this Juniper would be nice next to Hydreion and Rare Candy" They said " I don't need 3 Junipers together because it would suck have to discard all 3".

3 Junipers together is part of the game. Separating them with the intent to not draw them is stacking. Simple as that.

 

[psychup2034]

There is nothing wrong with resetting your deck after the end of each round to insure better deck performance.

They are not trying to gain a unfair advantage.

Do you realize how asinine it sounds for someone to say that people who "reset" their deck after each round to "ensure better deck performance" are not "trying to gain an unfair advantage"?

In trying to defend your own shady actions, you're proving yourself to be gaining an unfair advantage through stacking your deck in such a way that ensure better deck performance.

 

[vaporeon]

Again, Stacking is putting cards in your deck in a known order to gain a advantage. What don't you get about that?