Mulligan Charade - Who Shows First?
- Thread starter SLOW DECK
- Start date
The "playing a card down that's not a basic pokemon" debate is largely behind us. We've moved on to the actual steps and when they should take place during setup.
Still, to correct you, the player playing down the energy DIDN'T have a basic pokemon in their hand. That was the point. They had a mulligan and didn't want the opponent to get this information early.
LennonsDad
New Member
Lennon's my son, but you're welcome.
I guess it's essentially semantics at this point, because I see no correct way to do it. When you can't answer a basic (pardon the pun) question: "Who puts down first?" ... that's a hole. I understand that people are reluctant to have such rigidity in an environment that is more about fun than competition, but the fact is that every game that is played competitively succeeds (or fails) on the detailed rules. Watch the Scrabble Championships to see all the little nuances of how they have to do each turn in the name of equality. My understanding is that Pokemon has detailed rules on what happens if a die lands not fully flat; it has detailed rules on how to play Rock/Paper/Scissors (and don't get me started on THAT discussion~) ... and yet no rule for something that happens in every ... single ... game.
AyameHikaru
Active Member
Mulligans don't happen in every game. Depending on the deck you're playing it could be as often as every game, or it could only happen once every 100 times you play. I understand what you're saying, though. We do have detailed rules to follow on a lot of other areas. I would almost take the vague wording of mulligans to be deliberate.
In a lot of scenarios, who puts down first really doesn't matter. The conditions that are coming up here of gaining advantage by the mulligan, or choosing the better starter based on how many cards your opponent puts down, doesn't always happen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the rules allow you to place down one basic, wait until your opponent sets up, and then say 'oh wait' and switch it out? I know you can't switch once you've drawn for mulligan, but that would be similar to the Ambipom point brought up earlier. If you HAVE a basic, you're still allowed to switch, IIRC.
Also, I believe you can wait until your opponent gets their mulligans resolved before drawing mulligan cards. You place down a basic while they shuffle, redeal, and place something down, you can still switch as long as you haven't drawn yet. So the starting with the different basic bit could be worked around in that way.
In a lot of scenarios, who puts down first really doesn't matter. The conditions that are coming up here of gaining advantage by the mulligan, or choosing the better starter based on how many cards your opponent puts down, doesn't always happen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the rules allow you to place down one basic, wait until your opponent sets up, and then say 'oh wait' and switch it out? I know you can't switch once you've drawn for mulligan, but that would be similar to the Ambipom point brought up earlier. If you HAVE a basic, you're still allowed to switch, IIRC.
Also, I believe you can wait until your opponent gets their mulligans resolved before drawing mulligan cards. You place down a basic while they shuffle, redeal, and place something down, you can still switch as long as you haven't drawn yet. So the starting with the different basic bit could be worked around in that way.
Ehm... you can´t switch once you put something as aktiv pokemon. ------->NoPoke was faster^^
NoPoke
Active Member
I agree with you if you say that there is no SINGLE correct way to start. Maybe it is semantics but if there were no correct way to start then in the years this game has been played you would expect that we would have had at least one of these non starting scenarios.
Who puts down first? It does not matter to the game. As written the game does not care or specify who puts down first. If players want to make a big deal of it then they need to remember that the clock is ticking for both of them. In effect the question "who puts down first" makes no sense in the context of the games rules.
The problem is, the RULES say I have the RIGHT to not announce a mulligan until my opponent has laid their active. The RULES also say that my opponent has the RIGHT to not put down their active until I have announced my mulligan.
Sure, both of these are correct and either way is fine, but the problem comes in that they contradict each other. THAT can't happen in a valid set of rules. One rule ALWAYS has to be over another.
Technically, the "game" doesn't care about how long it takes to setup either. Those 2 minutes are part of the tournament, not the game.
Which is exactly what I'm asking. Who has what right? Certainly both of the things I said are allowed in the rules (no where does it say that each of those things can't be done), so what I'm looking for now is a definitive answer to who has what ability?
NoPoke
Active Member
You do not have the right to hold up the tournament.
You do not have the right to go outside the spirit of the game
You do not have the right to rules-lawyer the minutiae.
You have a responsibility to your opponent and the other players and staff to ensure that the game is fun.
If that responsibility means you have to give up a little bit of information then so be it. However as I have already indicated a way that stays within the current rules and gives up nothing at all why the continued insistence that the current rules are broken?
You do not have the right to go outside the spirit of the game
You do not have the right to rules-lawyer the minutiae.
You have a responsibility to your opponent and the other players and staff to ensure that the game is fun.
If that responsibility means you have to give up a little bit of information then so be it. However as I have already indicated a way that stays within the current rules and gives up nothing at all why the continued insistence that the current rules are broken?
I must have missed the solution you proposed. If you could paste it again that would be helpful.
This is not about rule-lawyering. Rules lawyering is where you take a KNOWN RULE and be ridiculous about it. Right now we HAVE NO set rule to lawyer about. We have just a bunch of willy nilly guidelines that don't get us anywhere.
Not really. Give me a scenario where the possibility of getting this super amazing advantage comes into play more than 40% of the time. (I would argue for 50% but this is impossible)
-Nevermind the fact that mulligans (through my various playtesting of various decks against various people) happen less often then the scneario where both players have a basic.
-Nevermind the fact that you'll hardly be able to determine whether you're going first or second before a game starts. (Sableye trumps this argument, but even if you play 4 Sableye, your odds of getting him in your first 7 cards hover around only 47%, less than half the games you'll play.)
-Nevermind the fact that most players/decks starting hands are incapable of obtaining a donk anyway. Regardless if they can draw an extra card or two.
Seriously, the advantage most people are worrying about are when your opponent is one card short of doing something really awesome like donking or getting super set-up or whatever.
WHEN DOES THIS EVEN HAPPEN ON ANY SORT OF REGULAR BASIS!?!?!?!?!?
Now if we're talking about stalling, or potential stalling (as in Michael Diaz's report), that's a separate issue imo for a separate thread. In cases where you only have one basic, WHY WOULD YOU STALL YOU ONLY HAVE ONE BASIC?!??!? Lol, there's literally nothing you can do to make it so that basic is not your starting pokemon. Stalling is definitely against the SOTG by various people's (POP too) standards.
PLAY YOUR OWN GAME! If your opponent is refusing to put down a basic, call a judge over. If you refuse to announce your mulligan cause you're worried about the various, extremely low percentage, scenarios I've described, then, I hope your opponent has the foresight to call a judge over too.
DonphanAtoZ
New Member
I can't believe this thread is going so far. It should be obvious what the right thing t o do is.
You make a false logical conclusion. It's not about HOW MUCH advantage is gained. It's about whether ANY advantage is gained.
It's the difference between going from 0 advantage to >0 advantage. It's Pass/Fail. There either IS an unfair advantage, or there IS NOT an unfair advantage.
To reply to part of this, in the T16 match, only 1 person knew he had a lone Garchomp start. That was Diaz. He should put the basic down. You can always place bench pokes down before the roll of the die/flip of coin to see who goes 1st. The oppo wont know if you have 1 basic or 3 when you place 1 down. All he will know is you have selected your STARTER. Now, the oppo made it much worse by laying the false basic down. This is what I dont get. If you draw your hand and you have 1 basic...lay it down. The oppo wont know anymore until you go to see who goes 1st and you dont add any more to the bench.
The set up procedure in place may need only a slight tweak at this point. Maybe put in "20 secs to decide your starter once you draw your 7 cards". Also clarify if you show hand before or after the placing of the active when you mulligan. IMO, you show after they place. You announce during that 20 secs to decide which basic to start with.
Keith
Please enlighten us with your wisdom then so we can put this to rest. I think you'll find that until we get a clarification from R&D that you do not have the correct answer.
I don't understand why we're arguing over whether or not a problem matters or not. ALL problems matter when they are rules problems. We just need to fix it and be done.
It doesn't even matter WHAT way we fix it. There just has to be a SINGLE CORRECT way to do things rather than some wishy washy many correct ways that conflict with each other.
AyameHikaru
Active Member
>.< I'm to used to the casualness of league play, methinks. Time to read the rule book again.
@xcfrisco: It depends on what decks you and your opponent are running. If one of you play Donkphan or SpeedChamp or another donk deck, it's rather possible. Again, not with much degree of regularity, but it does happen. This entire discussion is based on a very small percentage of games (I would say easily below 5%, maybe even below 1%) where it actually makes a difference.
@Ditto: An advantage is gained. That much is clear. The question is indeed whether or not the advantage is unfair, and just how far the advantage should be pushed.
@xcfrisco: It depends on what decks you and your opponent are running. If one of you play Donkphan or SpeedChamp or another donk deck, it's rather possible. Again, not with much degree of regularity, but it does happen. This entire discussion is based on a very small percentage of games (I would say easily below 5%, maybe even below 1%) where it actually makes a difference.
@Ditto: An advantage is gained. That much is clear. The question is indeed whether or not the advantage is unfair, and just how far the advantage should be pushed.
The advantage is LOL in the grand scheme of pokemon where only a super minority of games can have their outcomes determined by said advantage.
Are you really trying to tell me that if 1out of 1278351246t081246 games of pokemon had some sort of advantage present in them that weren't thoroughly thought out, or whatever, within the guidelines of the rulebook, then that issue which occurs during 0.00000000123% of all pokemon games would be worth not only discussing but altering/changing the rules?
The advantage is LOL in the grand scheme of pokemon where only a super minority of games can have their outcomes determined by said advantage.
Are you really trying to tell me that if 1out of 1278351246t081246 games of pokemon had some sort of advantage present in them that weren't thoroughly thought out, or whatever, within the guidelines of the rulebook, then that issue which occurs during 0.00000000123% of all pokemon games would be worth not only discussing but altering/changing the rules?
You do not seem to understand the purpose of rules. Rules are the building blocks of any game. They are what define the game. They are absolute and perfect. As soon as they aren't, they need to be changed. Right now, they're not, so they need to be changed (or clarified since they are vague).
If you have a million bricks in your home, and just 1 of those bricks are missing, you still have an incomplete home. Your home is still messed up. Regardless of whether that brick missing, putting a hole in one of your walls, bothers you or not, it's still incorrect.
Forget percentages, it's either a 1 or a 0, a pass or a fail, a right or a wrong. That's all that matters in rules.