Music

[Kibble N Bits]

Why are we not allowed to use I pods/ Zunes /other form of music players in Pokemon tournament games? I was watching a NLHE cash game on TV, that had 300/600 blinds with a 100 ante, and 3 of the 6 players had music devices. In a game like that where you are risking over $200,000 and you are allowed to use musical devices, why are you not allowed to use them in Pokemon tournaments where there is no buy-in and with the exception of the 5 big events that players are allowed to go to (2 states, regionals, nationals, and worlds) there is no cash value on first place. And in those big events only a small portion of the field is able to actually receive the cash (scholarship really, so not actually cash) prizes. In Battle Roads and City Championships the most you can win is $6ish - $40ish dollars worth of packs, that unless you sell them have no immediate monetary value, (also when you do sell them you are competing with stores, so you will often get less than the prices previously mentioned) however in poker games there is often large amounts of money at risk. It just seems weird that if the game that has the most money involved allows more freedom when it comes to this issue than the game that has no buy-in.

 

[Happiny13]

Players could make a cd or tape of advice for a player to listen to. Unlikely, but definitely a possibility, Besides, music makes it harder to hear so it could definitely be used to stall by saying "I can't hear you", etc. I'm sure there is something else.

 

[amphachu]

Mainly because in poker, you only need to be aware of the game state, not what your opponent is announcing. In Pokemon, you have to declare things, and while listening to music, you get distracted and can't hear your opponent. The prizes have no effect on this. It's all about the communication problems it would create.

 

[Kibble N Bits]

Players could make a cd or tape of advice for a player to listen to. Unlikely, but definitely a possibility, Besides, music makes it harder to hear so it could definitely be used to stall by saying "I can't hear you", etc. I'm sure there is something else.

How could that tape theoretically work, I don't really think that any tape would be longer than 2 minutes and would be anything more than than "When they play emboar poke-reversal it up" which they might just as easily listen to it before hand right now when they are not legal. If you are worried about some kind of walkey-talkey type thing, then we just have to tell the judges to watch out for anyone talking into a walkey talkey / cell phone. Although in reality I don't know how effective that would even be because the judges are super hardcore when it comes to crowd control anyway. I personally have gotten at least 5 warnings for being what the judges call too close to the players, and I wasnt standing close enough to the tables to even make out what was on the table. So there would be no way that a third party could even get close enough to the other player to see the hand of your opponent. Treat the stalling as you would anyway with warnings cautions prize penalties and so on.

Mainly because in poker, you only need to be aware of the game state, not what your opponent is announcing. In Pokemon, you have to declare things, and while listening to music, you get distracted and can't hear your opponent. The prizes have no effect on this. It's all about the communication problems it would create.

Im confused on what these communications would be. In a game like magic where there are many counter spells or other cards that are coming from your opponets hand you need to pay attention if your opponent asks for a minute to tank, but in pokemon everything is on the table. If they have emboar on the field and start attaching 15 fire energies, what do you think they are doing? If you dont know what your opponents cards do and if you are unable to recognize what they are doing than don't listen to music. Or you could have it turned down so that you can here them, you are assuming that I would have the volume turned up to a deafening roar where I cannot here people. If you play redshark most players don't announce what they are doing, but just do it anyway, and I manage to have working games with out them telling me

 

[totoro]

Us old guys find it quite rude to speak to someone with stuff plugged in their ears. It gives a subliminal message that "What I'm listening to is a heckuva lot more important than anything YOU"VE got to say to me." Pokémon is about interaction, and, sorry, "personal listening devices" do NOT facilitate interaction.

 

[baby mario]

Im confused on what these communications would be. In a game like magic where there are many counter spells or other cards that are coming from your opponets hand you need to pay attention if your opponent asks for a minute to tank, but in pokemon everything is on the table. If they have emboar on the field and start attaching 15 fire energies, what do you think they are doing? If you dont know what your opponents cards do and if you are unable to recognize what they are doing than don't listen to music. Or you could have it turned down so that you can here them, you are assuming that I would have the volume turned up to a deafening roar where I cannot here people. If you play redshark most players don't announce what they are doing, but just do it anyway, and I manage to have working games with out them telling me

You're not supposed to have to figure out what your opponent is doing. It's both player's responsibility to announce their moves and make it clear. You say it's obvious what people are doing and most of the time it is. However, I reckon everyone has come across situations where there are disputes about what a player did/announced. It's pretty common. It's also easy to miss when time is called on a round.

Besides, Pokemon is supposed to be a friendly game. Listening to music instead of actually playing the game with your opponent comes off as kind of rude, Maybe they don't want to have to sit there pointing at your cards whenever they Flash bite or snipe something on the bench.

 

[Kibble N Bits]

You're not supposed to have to figure out what your opponent is doing. It's both player's responsibility to announce their moves and make it clear. You say it's obvious what people are doing and most of the time it is. However, I reckon everyone has come across situations where there are disputes about what a player did/announced. It's pretty common. It's also easy to miss when time is called on a round.

Besides, Pokemon is supposed to be a friendly game. Listening to music instead of actually playing the game with your opponent comes off as kind of rude, Maybe they don't want to have to sit there pointing at your cards whenever they Flash bite or snipe something on the bench.

You are assuming that people will have there music set on a volume that is a deafening roar where they cannot here what there opponent is saying, or when time is called. While there is no doubt that there will be a handful of people that will have it set that high the majority of people do not like having the volume so high that they cannot hear anything

Us old guys find it quite rude to speak to someone with stuff plugged in their ears. It gives a subliminal message that "What I'm listening to is a heckuva lot more important than anything YOU"VE got to say to me." Pokémon is about interaction, and, sorry, "personal listening devices" do NOT facilitate interaction.

This is not meant as a way to be rude, or a personally attack in anyway, Instead as a way to help myself and others concentrate. In high pressure situations or in stressful situations, that are common occurrences in competitive games, and tournaments I find it easier to relax and concentrate when I'm listening to hard rock / rap.

 

[Trican]

Not to be a "kids these days" kind of guy as I'm only 25 myself, but...

Kids these days don't get that it IS rude. Intentional or not. It may help you concentrate, but a majority of older players find it rude. I won't play anyone at league who chooses to listen to music or their DS while playing a game. I've noticed that there is a big discrepancy of what the teen crowd finds OK and what I find OK. Admittedly I work with 2nd graders and am a bit more tolerant of a bit more, but it doesn't change that it's rude to be listening to your music. There is no reason why you should have to stop, remove your ear plugs and then go 'Hey what did you just do?' If you were fully in the game you'd already know. If you really want music to concentrate get a song stuck in your head and be your own juke box.

 

[Amt]

How do you know I'm listening to music? I could be on a phone call with a person standing behind you and finding out all the cards in your hand. Unlikely, but possible.

 

[Kibble N Bits]

Not to be a "kids these days" kind of guy as I'm only 25 myself, but...

Kids these days don't get that it IS rude. Intentional or not. It may help you concentrate, but a majority of older players find it rude. I won't play anyone at league who chooses to listen to music or their DS while playing a game. I've noticed that there is a big discrepancy of what the teen crowd finds OK and what I find OK. Admittedly I work with 2nd graders and am a bit more tolerant of a bit more, but it doesn't change that it's rude to be listening to your music. There is no reason why you should have to stop, remove your ear plugs and then go 'Hey what did you just do?' If you were fully in the game you'd already know. If you really want music to concentrate get a song stuck in your head and be your own juke box.

Asking what the older players want is creating a paradox here. There have been many situations where people have told me to stop complaining because "Pokemon is a kids game". You actually see the mods on this site use that as an excuse quite often. So obviously we need to enforce some kind of consistency across the board on whether we should treat Pokemon as a kids game or as an adults game. And like the other people have assumed before, you area also assuming that people will have their music so loud that they will not be able to hear what the opponent is saying. If you keep your music to a reasonable level than there shouldn't be any times where you ask you opponent what they did, purely because you could not hear them.

How do you know I'm listening to music? I could be on a phone call with a person standing behind you and finding out all the cards in your hand. Unlikely, but possible.

I am going to completely disregard everything you say from now on, because you obviously have not read any of the arguments that I have made. If you did then you would have seen that I talked about this issue in post number 4 of this thread. I try to take other people's arguments into account, but when they fail to even read mine, I stop paying attention to them completely.

 

[z-man]

Poker involves a huge less amount of communication than our game. In poker, the game state can be held by throwing cards at the dealer, pushing chips into the pot, and doing a check tap. In pokemon, players need to be much pay a huge amount of attention to the game state. Having a distraction is never good. Moreover, poker is a very psychological game. Listening to music is a good strategy to avoid having any tells. I can know EXACTLY what is in your hand and still not know what to do in Pokemon. Clearing your mind is not a strategy unless it comes down to me Cyrus Initiative or Judging you (or obviously TGW).

There is a level of disrespect behind listening to music as well. Whether or not it is intentional disrespect is unimportant. It is still disrespectful. It really bothers me when my 8 year old cousin finishes his meal at a restaurant and pulls out his DS. Even worse is when he pulls out his DS BEFORE the food even comes. The disrespect is far from intentional (he's 8 years old), but it is clearly there. People listening to music while playing a game with me that requires attention (poker is fine) shows me that that person just doesn't care about the game. They aren't having fun, so they need an alternate form of entertainment. When it gets to that point, why even bother play the game in the first place?

Also, Amt does suggest a real theory. I have seen people pull really odd schemes to win a battle roads (a tourny that has next to zero prize support). What's to suggest that that cannot happen? Poker is much more regulated and they are very careful to ensure that this does not happen... but the pokemon staff is much smaller and less experienced. There is gonna be some guy some day who is listening to the opponent's hand through a cell phone.

Considering the older players make up the majority of the player base, it is important to keep them in mind. The "kid game excuse" only comes when people want to target older players with "old people humor" or marketing towards something kids probably won't be using (such as marketing the game through a bar... bad idea :3).

Judges have varying levels of comfort zones. The average plan here (where I live in NV) is allow watchers to be right at the table until the players shoo them away. I take every chance I get to make sure that all viewers are at least a table length away. Until I make that comment, you can be right over my shoulder and the NV judges won't really care. I know other judges are more strict, however. In California, we have a fine line about 4 feet away from the actual tables that you cannot cross. If you do, you will be warned. Considering that cell phones are VERY common, it is impossible to tell a judge to watch out for cell phones. Judges would be paranoid about cell phones in the tournament area. I have a program on my phone that reads texts to me if I get too lazy to read them. It is pretty easy to have people text me to give me hints as well. There are MANY possibilities in how to cheat like this. You only addressed a few.




I would like to know why you want this change. Does music help you think? Is it just to homogenize the rules with other games?

 

[Zarmakuizz]

Electronic devices are forbidden while playing. Exception goes for an electronic watch or because of health issues.

 

[z-man]

Electronic devices are forbidden while playing. Exception goes for an electronic watch or because of health issues.

Even the watch depends on the judge. I have had to testify to judges before that my watch, being mechanical, is acceptable. If you have a digital timer on your watch, many judges will disallow them.

 

[SD PokeMom]

speaking as one who has staffed large events like regionals and nationals: we're not going to be able to inspect every electronic device any player decides to plug in to to make sure it's not capable of receiving outside communication from another party.

how are we to know if you're listening to your buddy standing behind your opponent or your exactly 30 minute playlist on your smartphone? we've got enough to watch and listen for as it is...

not to mention, there are ALWAYS issues with players 'not hearing' important announcements like the time the post-lunch round starts, or when time is called. players being plugged into earbuds during rounds is just going to make the problems worse.

pokémon != poker.

jmho
'mom

 

[Amt]

Asking what the older players want is creating a paradox here. There have been many situations where people have told me to stop complaining because "Pokemon is a kids game". You actually see the mods on this site use that as an excuse quite often. So obviously we need to enforce some kind of consistency across the board on whether we should treat Pokemon as a kids game or as an adults game. And like the other people have assumed before, you area also assuming that people will have their music so loud that they will not be able to hear what the opponent is saying. If you keep your music to a reasonable level than there shouldn't be any times where you ask you opponent what they did, purely because you could not hear them.



I am going to completely disregard everything you say from now on, because you obviously have not read any of the arguments that I have made. If you did then you would have seen that I talked about this issue in post number 4 of this thread. I try to take other people's arguments into account, but when they fail to even read mine, I stop paying attention to them completely.

You can't have a judge getting onto every single person with their cell phone or PDA etc out. It's unrealistic with a huge crowd, say at Nats or Worlds. As much as I like listening to music, I don't think it's realistic to allow cell phones / ipods / mp3 players to be used during a game.

 

[DarkBlade]

1. You could lie, and say "I didnt hear you."

2. Very hard to concentrate.

3. Annoying

4. 'Nuff said.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[ShadowCard]

I'll go with this:

Us old guys find it quite rude to speak to someone with stuff plugged in their ears. It gives a subliminal message that "What I'm listening to is a heckuva lot more important than anything YOU"VE got to say to me."

and this:

speaking as one who has staffed large events like regionals and nationals: we're not going to be able to inspect every electronic device any player decides to plug in to to make sure it's not capable of receiving outside communication from another party.
...
not to mention, there are ALWAYS issues with players 'not hearing' important announcements like the time the post-lunch round starts, or when time is called. players being plugged into earbuds during rounds is just going to make the problems worse.

Maybe it's not meant to be rude, but it is rude. Not to mention your music being too loud through your earphones and being a distraction.

 

[Kabutops141]

Yeah, headphones and music players are just generally a bad idea for all the reasons stated above. Not to mention that they can easily be a distraction. The chords are easy to get in the way, and if you happen to not hear because of them, that's going to be wasting time as your opponent repeats what he/she said.
It's simply not worth all the trouble just to have a bit of music playing as you're playing a game.

 

[TeamIvy]

After reading through a lot of the points made against Kibble N Bits' post, I have one question: Are deaf people not allowed to play pokemon? The thing I see that most of your comments have in common is that listening to music encourages a lack of communication, which apparently is a no no for pokemon, or at least competitive play. So wouldn't you say that people who are deaf 100% equate a lack of communication? Lets say a deaf person was allowed to play pokemon. How would they communicate with their opponent? Would they point? bring a computer and type their commands? Would they have someone next to them that would talk for them? I feel that the most likely of these choices would be to point. I feel like any human being who plays this game would understand if someone pointed to a power and then pointed to the object of which this power applies to. If said human is somehow incapable of understanding the pointing, then I'm sure the judges would love to help, after all that is their job.

Another popular point that is being made is that its "rude" to listen to music. Judging the rudeness is completely subjective. I may find any given hand gesture a player makes rude. I may find the way he shuffles his deck to be rude. does this mean people should not be allowed to shuffle their decks? Saying something can be perceived as rude is not enough grounds to forbid it.

Honestly the fact that other major card games/games in general allow their players to listen to music and pokemon doesn't, should be addressed. These other games such as poker, magic and even video games all allow people to listen to music when there is more on the line. You cannot dismiss the fact that these games offer more money. The bigger the reward, the more likely someone is to break the rules and cheat to get an advantage towards winning. This is the only reason I can imagine as to why Pokemon does not allow headphone devices. They think people will use them to cheat. But why is it that other companies trust their players to not cheat when more is on the line, and pokemon doesn't. You can just as easily see player's hands in MTG and call your friend to tell him what his opponent has, and yet no one does. In video game tournaments, almost all players listen to music. A person can easily look at a monitor or screen and tell their friend what the opponent is doing by calling them, and yet they don't. So does all of this just wind down to the fact that pokemon does not trust their players where as other companies trust their players to not cheat?

 

[Shadow Zangoose]

I'm just waiting for the inevitable "it's their game, their rules" post.