National Championships and POP in Europe

[Michel]

Before we start, you have to know that the Belgian Championship will be run in 3 days, and the National in Holland one week later.

These emails are from today ...

To me, from PS Games (distributor in Holland) :

"Hi Michel,

Please be aware that, after conferring with the Pokémon Company the following things have changed for the prizes for Nationals:
-Players that are not Dutch Nationals will not be competing for Travel expenses. If foreign players end first, a invitation to worlds will be extended and also the fysical prizes will be awarded, but no ticket+hotel.

Greetings,

Erik van Weverwijk"


From me to PS Games, Intrafin (distributor in Belgium) and PUI

"Hi Erik

I find quite strange that this decision is taken one week before the National.

As you probably know, we've already played a City Championship in Made. We wouldn't have played it if it was not preparing, and giving a bye at the NC.

We have also taken some dispisitions in order to be in Utrecht for your National, and these have financial implications (shop closed, organisation of a tournament refused, ...).

We also have planned our international tournaments according to the fact that we were going to play the National in Holland. We would have played other tournaments if we'd been aware of that decision.

I'm sure you'll understand that coming to Holland without any hope to win a trip to Worlds is far less interesting for us. If an invitation without trip is maybe interesting for US players, the costs of transport and hotel are too high for us.
Of course you don't prevent foreign players of playing your national, but you prevent them of winning the best prices.

In addition to that, Dutch players are welcome and can win a trip at the Belgian National Championship on Sunday 20 in Gent.

I've just seen on your website that the 15+ trip was canceled too.

I don't know if these decisions have been taken by PUI or by PS Games, but it shows a lack of serious in POP and a lack of respect towards the players.

When decisions are taken for such a main event, I suppose that these have been studied and thought before their publication. If mistakes have been made, the consequences haven't to be paid by (some of) the players.

Sorry if this mail is a little bit 'hard', but this is for me one more step on the way to the disorganisation of PUI's OP in Europe, if it has ever been really organised.

Just to give some examples : prices announced on the PUi's website for European's main events but not given in Europe, Gym Stadiums run 'confidentially' in Germany (these had to be 'international events') with 30 players but without any international advertisement, most of the US promos unavailable in Europe except on ebay, ...

Players deserve some respect, and these examples, like the decision taken for your National, go in another way.

If the decision about the foreign players in Utrecht is not changed, we'll not play there.
My daughter will play the Belgian National in Ghent and I'll play the French National in Paris (yes, like Belgium, France do accept foreign players and offer them a trip if they win !) on Sunday.

These will certainly be our last main events in Pokemon, after many years of Pokemon tournaments played and judged all over the World.
In an email, Dave Schwimmer asked me last year to be patient and to give time to PUI to run a great POP in Europe. If this is the way PUI want to run POP, that's OK, but I'm not interested.

As I'm sure you're not the only person concerned, I send a copy of this mail to PUI and to Jann Brys at Intrafin. I think my position has to be clearly known by all the people who could be concerned.

Thanks anyway for your mail

Greetings

Michel"


Another mail announced me later today that foreign players were allowed to play the Belgian championship but will not win trips.

Changing such decisions 2 or 9 days before a main event, is that professionnal ? Do they respect the players and their families ?

No further comment now, I'm too disgusted by what they dare to call 'Organised Play' and the way they run it.

POP in Europe ? Who still believes in such a joke ?

 

[Rainbowgym]

Michel, everything is going like we pronounced almost a year ago.
We all were declared mad and look now.

Nobody wanted to listen to veteran organizers and they will feel the pain after Nationals.
I never could think of something like this should happen, I have seen a lot of "mistakes" last year.
But this one is having a larger impact than they realize.

It's more like How to kill a game in 10 steps.
Is this the way PUI is not going to let their distributors fail?

 

[ukpokemonpro]

I can completely understand why this has happened and in a way I agree with it! Nationals are supported by and paid for by the National Distributor for that country so they are going to want to keep the prizes in house.

It's the disparity between US and the rest of the world in prize support, league support and communication that is the real killer of the game. After all PUI will just tell you that this was the plan all along and that it is up to the National Distributor how they kill off OP.. erm I mean support OP..

 

[Rainbowgym]

Pro = We asked about this in september saying that they have to be clear about Nationals.
No one listened.
For the Dutch 15+ at this moment there will be no player present at Worlds and for the few really supporting players this is hard.

I'm glad Belgium decided to give the trip also only to an inhabitant, it's fair to keep that inside the country.

What I don't like is that structure, rules etc are changed as easy as the wind blows.

 

[Michel]

No Ben, sorry.

If prizes are announced, if people are told they would play for a trip, you don't change that 2 days or 9 days before the event.

I don't care if it's a National or not. PUI and distributors had to think about it before they've made the info about their Nationals public.
These people show, one more time, that they don't know the basic rules of the organization of a tournament and that they don't care of the players.

Would YOU change the prizes of one of your tournaments 2 days before the event ? I'm sure you won't because you respect your players and you are honest enough to keep your promises.

PUI and distributors are not like that.

Disparity between the USA and the rest of the World. Honestly, I don't care anymore.
It's clear to me, for a very long time, that Pokemon is a US game run by a US company for US players.
International POP is a marketing idea, something you see on the web to keep the stupid people like us in the game.

More than 1 year now that we're waiting for real OP, and all we see are broken promises.

In the UK, things have been clear since the beginning. Foreign players were not allowed to play at the National.
In Holland and Belgium, foreign players were welcome.
PS Games has confirmed our participation to their National ... 1 week ago ! Now they say we may come and play for prizes we don't care about.

Who do they think they are to threat players like that ???

 

[RainbowRichards]

This thread makes me wonder - is the US National Championship open to players from other countries? If a non-US player makes 1st or 2nd in their age group, will they receive a Travel Award to Worlds????????


**runs and checks the FAQs page for Nationals**

I'm back (puff, puff) - here's a little something from a link from the US National Championship info page:

Legal Notices

Legal Restrictions. All applicable national, federal, state and local laws and regulations apply. Void where prohibited or restricted by law.

Conditions of Participation. Participating in the Pokémon ® Trading Card Game U.S. National Championship ("Championship") constitutes the agreement of the player ("Participant") (or, if such Participant is a minor, his or her parent or legal guardian) to follow the Pokémon Floor Rules and all other special event rules applicable to this event and be bound by the final decision of Pokémon USA, Inc. ("Pokémon"). Participating also constitutes Participant’s agreement (or, if such Participant is a minor, the agreement of Participant’s parent or legal guardian) that because Pokémon Organized Play (“POP”) is above all designed to be fun, safe and fair for everyone involved, that Pokémon reserves the right to suspend Participant from participating in POP (including the Championship) if we determine that Participant’s participation may compromise these values or that suspension is in the best interests of POP or other POP participants.

The Championship is open to all eligible players. Suspended players are not eligible to participate in the Championship. Please see http://op.pokemon-tcg.com for registration information and to review our Privacy Policy.

Prizes. Prizes awarded in connection with the Championship (including without limitation, Travel Awards) (“Prizes”) are not redeemable for cash. Prize winners are fully and solely responsible for all applicable taxes. If a Championship winner is suspended, found ineligible, fails to comply with the Floor Rules, or refuses a Prize, that individual's claim to a Prize is forfeited, and Pokémon may decide to award the Prize to another player, but has no obligation to do so. Prizes, including Travel Awards, may be subject to restrictions that will be set forth in official rules for that Prize published on this web Site or provided to Prize winner.

Prize winners (or, if the winner is a minor, the minor’s parent or legal guardian) may be required to sign: (a) a release (i) relieving the Pokémon Parties (defined below), from any and all claims, losses, demands, liabilities directly or indirectly arising in connection with the Championship and the Prizes and (ii) where permitted by law, granting Pokémon the right to use his/her name, voice, and likeness for advertising and publicity purposes without additional compensation; (b) affidavits of eligibility; (c) the name and address of each Prize winner (or, if the winner is a minor, the name and address of the minor’s parent or legal guardian), as required by law and (d) all legal documents which Pokémon may require (including without limitation proper identification and 1099 W 9 tax forms). Entry into a Championship constitutes each Prize winner’s (or, if the winner is a minor, the minor’s parent or legal guardian) agreement to sign such releases, affidavits and documents.

Agreement to Limit Pokémon Liability. BY PARTICIPATING IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP, PARTICIPANT (OR IF PARTICIPANT IS UNDER 18, PARTICIPANT’S PARENT OR GUARDIAN) AND HIS OR HER PARENTS, GUARDIANS, HEIRS AND AFFILIATES AGREE TO RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS POKÉMON AND THE POKÉMON COMPANY, AND THEIR AFFILIATES AND THEIR RESPECTIVE SUBSIDIARIES, SUPPLIERS, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, REPRESENTATIVES, AGENTS AND EMPLOYEES (THE “POKÉMON PARTIES”) FROM AND AGAINST ALL CLAIMS, EXPENSES, LOSSES OR DAMAGES TO PROPERTY OR PERSON OF ANY KIND, INCLUDING DEATH, CAUSED IN WHOLE OR IN PART, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, BY PARTICIPATING IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP OR ANY EVENTS OR PERFORMANCES OF ANY KIND ATTENDED BY PARTICIPANT IN CONNECTION THEREWITH, OR USE OF ANY PRIZES. THE POKÉMON PARTIES SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTICIPANT OR THE PARTICIPANT’S PARENTS, GUARDIANS, HEIRS OR AFFILIATES, FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, PUNITIVE, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES.

Indemnity. BY PARTICIPATING IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP, EACH PARTICIPANT (OR, IF SUCH PARTICIPANT IS A MINOR, PARTICIPANT’S PARENT OR LEGAL GUARDIAN) AGREES TO INDEMNIFY AND HOLD HARMLESS THE POKÉMON PARTIES FROM AND AGAINST ANY AND ALL CLAIMS, LIABILITIES, LOSSES, DAMAGES OR EXPENSES OF ANY KIND INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, (I) CLAIMS FOR THE NEGLIGENCE, FAULT OR OTHER TORT OF ANY POKÉMON PARTY; (II) PAYMENT OF ANY WORKER'S COMPENSATION LIENS, MEDICAL LIENS OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF LIEN; AND (III) PAYMENT OF REASONABLE ATTORNEYS' FEES ARISING FROM OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH ANY INJURIES, DAMAGES OR LOSSES SUSTAINED IN CONNECTION WITH THE CHAMPIONSHIP OR FROM THE USE OF ANY PRIZE, PROVIDED THAT THIS INDEMNIFICATION SHALL NOT EXTEND TO CLAIMS FOR ANY POKÉMON PARTY’S INTENTIONAL OR RECKLESS MISCONDUCT OR GROSS NEGLIGENCE. THIS RELEASE EXTENDS TO CLAIMS FOR THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE POKÉMON PARTIES.

Use of Likeness. Except where legally prohibited Participant (or if Participant is under 18, Participant’s parent or legal guardian) grants permission for Pokémon and those acting under its authority to use his/her name, photograph, voice and/or likeness for advertising and/or publicity purposes without additional compensation.

Event Cancellation. Pokémon is not responsible for the cancellation of the Championship.

Claims. By participating in the Championship, Participant (or if Participant is under 18, Participant’s parent or legal guardian) agrees that these Rules are governed, construed and interpreted under the laws of the State of New York without regard to conflicts of law principles, and that any legal action brought by Participant or his or her parent or legal guardian or Pokémon with regard to or arising out of any matters set forth in this document shall be brought only in an appropriate state or federal court in New York County, New York and consents to the jurisdiction and venue of such courts for these purposes.

©2004 Pokémon

Paragraph 3 doesn't say "...all eligible US players...", nor do I see anywhere there or on the FAQ page that limits Travel Awards to US citizen winners.

Watch that change in the next 8 days ...

 

[ukpokemonpro]

No Ben, sorry.

If prizes are announced, if people are told they would play for a trip, you don't change that 2 days or 9 days before the event.

I don't care if it's a National or not. PUI and distributors had to think about it before they've made the info about their Nationals public.
These people show, one more time, that they don't know the basic rules of the organization of a tournament and that they don't care of the players.

Would YOU change the prizes of one of your tournaments 2 days before the event ? I'm sure you won't because you respect your players and you are honest enough to keep your promises....

PUI and distributors are not like that.

I certainly don't agree with what they have done but I can understand it and again I am sure that PUI will back the distributor 100% after all delivering what you promised only matters until you change that promise to something else.

There is nothing we can do, no point in complaining and no reason to carry on with official OP! Personally when I am struggling to get players to the UK Nationals, when invites have still not gone out, when the distributors and OP provider ignore pleas for months to not hold the tournament 3 hours away from your major player base and when the date and venue have changed 3 times then nothing a distributor does to kill of OP .. erm support OP I mean surprizes me anymore.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Rainbowrichard -
As said before, what is announced on their website is not meant for players outside the US.
Even things on the International pages are not valid.

National distributors are free to do what they want, with the blessings of PUI.

 

[RainbowRichards]

Lia, what I meant was I wonder if you all came from Europe to the Origins convention on 26 June and entered - would trips won by European players at the US Nationals be honored by POP-N.A.???

 

[Michel]

Sure they will RainbowRichards, they pay the trip from Origins to Orlando and we'll have to pay a second trip from Europe to Origins

Ben, if I make a link between this topic and yours asking if we would do it again, I'd say that I don't see any reason to continue working on POP with PUI, except our love for the game.
But I see more and more reasons to quit.
BTW, our love for the game has been given to us by Wizards, their organization, their OP, their communication, the nice people we've met there like Harlan, the MT's, ...

Yes PUI will back the distributors, PS Games talk about a 'Pokemon company' in their email. I suppose they're talking about PUI, or is it another secret company working on POP ???

You say there's nothing we can do ? Sure there is something ... nothing !
That's what I'll do in the future. No OP anymore, except the league I run at the same time as the YGO, DM and Magic leagues (I don't want to penalize my players, they don't already have so much left).

I'm now a player, like I was before, not a TO or judge anymore.
I'll play official or non official tournaments, I don't care. The most important is to have fun and play.
I've spent a lot of time in running and judging events instead of playing at all these tournaments.

I was happy to do it because I found that, that way, I helped the game and the people who were involved in OP, those people who were working for us and for our game.
Today I think that working for (with ? ) people who don't respect the players and the basic tournament organisation rules would be nothing else than a waste of time and energy and, in a way, an agreement given to what they do.

But the game, thanks to PUI, has already lost so many people in Europe. I'm just one more, ... nothing really important actually

 

[Rainbowgym]

Brian - they can change things right under your eyes, so I will not be suprised if monday those rulings are changed.


Michel - We will always be there for you and Leatitia, if you want to play and have fun, we will have a nice tournament at the start of OUR pokemonyear.
We liked it in Brussels and now we know how to drive we will come another time (when it's not raining).

I know there are not to many players left, but you know that also playing with a small group can be very nice.
They didn't only lost you but also Maurice, Frans, Hugo, Henna and me. That's 5 adults who are so disgusted by what is done to them and their players. But it's also the group of people who kept the game alive and have a great knowlegde of the game.

Either if this game is going to survive or not, we don't want to be in contact with OP anymore this way.
It's a complete joke, surrounded with lies.

 

[ukpokemonpro]

Ben, if I make a link between this topic and yours asking if we would do it again, I'd say that I don't see any reason to continue working on POP with PUI, except our love for the game... But I see more and more reasons to quit.

Michel I gotta agree with you here, I see nothing but more heartache, broken promises and non-delivery and if it weren't for the players that look to me I would have quit a long time ago.

.. if this game is going to survive or not, we don't want to be in contact with OP anymore this way. It's a complete joke, surrounded with lies.

Looks that way to me too, I just spent 3 weeks chasing down who was telling lies, PUI or the Distributors OP provider and I still don't know! All it has done is left me wondering how I can work with and for an organisation that will not communicate with me and certainly won't listen!

All we have ever done in the UK is try to grow the game but it seems PUI and the distributor do not appreciate or respect us for that. Certainly when we hear that our OP provider will be happy if they get 8 players in each age group at Nationals and that compared to some of the other International "Nationals" theirs will still look good, I just dispair!

I think we all need to read TEGOs post -

http://www.pokegym.net/showpost.php?p=93353&postcount=1

I wish I knew when Jarrod sent that?

 

[Rainbowgym]

Because some unexpected changes appeared june 17, I guess this was send june 16 and not earlier.

I wished there was an email saying if you have so and so much players at your Nationals you have to give a trip+invitation to each agegroup.
Or even better, distributors have to arrange (as "independent"??? party) a Nationals for their country and a trip + invitations must be awarded to each agegroup.

But that's a fairytail.


Again as long descissions are made by the distributors there will be differences always.
Look at the entreefees for Nationals.
Germany 2 Euro ( 3 trips)
Belgium 5 Euro (1 trip)
Netherlands 15 Euro. (2 trips)

 

[Marcello-Milord]

Here's the story for Italian Nationals, though:

after discovering that Distributor wanted to run an age modified tournament, and that the trip for each category was intended to be awarded only if there were at least 16 players in that category, we explained that, for some organization problems (I' am the registered TO for the event, and the HJ too, and I know - as I'll be there for setting up - the place where nationals will be held): with an expected participation of 80 players (only the Milan City championship had 35 players), we have to split them in 2 rooms, so thinking about an unique-tournament is impossible. So, we convinced them to have a separate tournament for each age category, with prizes for each category (instead of prizes for the unique standing using the age-modified system). We explained too that the minimum number for sanctioning is 8 players (they thinked that it was 16 beacuse of the CC limitations)...

Now, we have an OPEN National Championship next Sunday (June 27th), with an entry fee of 15 Euros, and a National promo + 3 Sandstorm boosters at the registration. For winners of CCs and GCs, no entry fee.
We'll have 3 trips for Worlds, and personally, I'm organizing some side events, such as Unlimited Tournaments and GBA Tournaments.
Though there are still problems with the distributors, we are trying to work with them, and it seems that they are understanding our knowledge and importance (maybe EX: Drago will be the 1st set in italian without translation errors... ^_^).

 

[Michel]

Tego's post gives an answer to me, thanks Eskil !

So PUI hasn't given an 'order' to the distributors, but a choice.
The full responsibility of these decisions is now clear.

PS Games for Holland and Intrafin for Belgium.

Tego, it would be interesting to know when you've received this email. I'd like to know if distributors have communicated their decision very late or if they've been covered by Jarrod's email these last days only.

Anyway, that gives us one more time an idea of the level of knowledge of these guys concerning tournament organization.

 

[Master_Prof_Juggie]

Giday

Here's an update from my part of the world.

After our distributor telling me on May 27th to run my Pre Release on 19th June, they then failed to send the product. I found out on Thursday.

They replied to my email asking why, with ... You missed the order date of May 17th which we had posted in our forums. The product hasn't arrived in time to support you. Pity they never told me to check their forums for updates ... it used to always be by email, direct to me.

They also said that PUI had changed the procedures for product allocation & that meant i missed out because of my non order. With my TM/TA PR having 50 players attend & this time 45 pre registered, they couldn't contact me with a simple email asking why.

Another interesting fact was they held their own PR's on 12th / 13th, more this weekend & even more next weekend.

News to me about the order date, but when i checked their forums ... true enough ... there's a message saying for anyone interested to contact them prior to May 17th.
You can guess my current mood ...

 

[Rainbowgym]

Juggie - get awake, you are not important for them.
what I think is that prerelease orders are more expensive than the ones after.
Otherwise there shouldn't been a problem for you (and some others)

 

[ukpokemonpro]

Juggie,

giday matey and I gotta say you've been stitched but they will just hide behind the "it was published on our site rubbish"

As you may now start to feel it matters not what we have done past, present or future for the health of the game if they can make a fast buck at your expense they will do!

 

[Michel]

I've been to the Championnat de France yesterday (see my topic in the 'Tournaments' section) and I've found at least one distributor in Europe that is positive and want to do a good job for the players and the community.

Not only they've accepted to send a foreign player in Orlando if he was first, but they've also run an excellent tournament.
Thanks, and congrats to them !

 

[Rainbowgym]

Michel, in Gent they also tried to make a good Nationals, but as long as the approach is that it's only a game and you must not be to serious about the rules, Nationals looks like a normal tournament.
No deckchecks, only making a decklist without check is not done at a Nationals.
One of our players found in the 4th round someone playing a Prof Elm.

I did understand that the guy overthere in the yellow (WotC) shirt, was the representative of the distributor.
If he was he gave it his best shot, there was a listening ear for the professors, but some things you can't change during an event.
Best out of 3 in 30 minutes with a space of 5 minutes between is killing for me, got back with a terrible headache.

Someone said I hope it's arranged better next sunday in Utrecht, and we said don't count on it.
Serious OP is far far away.
That the compendium made entrance at tournaments is a good thing, but a penalty guideline who nobody knows is needed more sometimes.
I saw and heared some very serious cheating from players who are in this game long enough to know the rules. In these cases a match loss should be given, but it's wasn't so these players will again try to get advantage this way in the future.

Learn to play and at least learning the basic rules is only done by people long enough in this game.
All hush hush leagues which will appear meaby the coming year will most times not give players the correct base.
I prefer to play a correct tournament that one with large prizes, but who am I.