National's Coin Manipulation Issue

[SLOW DECK]

Well, it hasn't hurt him since is son is the current National Champion with the title and all of the prizes that go along with it. He was able to use his "pet" coin until the final match, and according to his father, after hitting 6 flips in a row in a deck that contained 4 reversals and 4 junk arms, the judges finally gave his son a substitute coin. The father says his son was not used to the flipping the weight of the new coin as it was different than the coin he had practiced with, and the son proceeded to get tails the rest of the game, but still won the Championship. I don't know how far into this second game they were when the coin change was made. Keep in mind that several players had been knocked out of the National Championship who had also complained about the coin use.

This is what is so upsetting. I hate the message this sends to both the Juniors and Seniors that play in this program.



Please don't do that. It is exactly what I was hoping would not happen, young people now feeling they have to learn to manipulate randomizers in order to win. It is wrong. Give the Pokemon officials a chance to straighten out this situation.

JAX54,

Your (3 and only post) on Pokegym seem more like a vindictive character assassination on a family who has been in this game since the beginning. Statements like "you are concerned" are not fooling anyone, as an adult, I have seen that statement used with character assassinations often. Maybe this isn't what you meant to be doing, but you keep bring them back into it. I know the family, I know the issue, and this concerned thread is sounding more like sour grapes of a parent. The legality of coin flipping is something that Pokemon has always upheld since the begginning.

This fooled by randomness issue creates some strong opinions on coin flipping can create a strong bias. A person who thinks they can coin flip will have streaks, and they get "hot". A person who witnesses coin flips head streaks think they cheating. A person who has a steak of tails, just has sour grapes. Pokemon laid out in the roles for a flip to be eye level and flip 3 times. Anyone who wants to fool themselves into becoming a great coin flipper, go for it. Come back to this thread when you find someone who can flip 300 heads out of 500 coins flips.

 

[Heatherdu]

JAX54,

Your (3 and only post) on Pokegym seem more like a vindictive character assassination on a family who has been in this game since the beginning. Statements like "you are concerned" are not fooling anyone, as an adult, I have seen that statement used with character assassinations often. I know the family, I know the issue, and this concerned thread is just sour grapes of a parent.

You are very wrong in this instance. Jax and his/her family have also been very involved with Pokemon for longer than I can guess with multiple appearances in top cuts at all levels of tournaments including Worlds. Jax's children make many posts on the 'gym. Jax has an admirable sense of morality and has been sooooo bothered by this that s/he feels strongly enough to finally post online. This is not a character assassination but an attempt to discuss a true issue in the game and the examples we want to set for all the children involved.

 

[secretsof2113]

Sorry SLOW DECK, but as long as the discussion is still civil, the topic at hand won't be closed down until we feel it necessary.

It saddens me to hear about something like this happening, and even more so, to hear that it's happening right in the region of the country that I play in.

There was a discussion of a possible randomizer being at each table, just like the clear purple ones we had when nationals was still in Columbus. If accusations like this are being made, something has to change.

When prizes like that are on the line, one would think that you'd want to play with SOTG and say "Hey, I won fairly, and I earned the spot I'm in. I earned my worlds trip fairly."

I can't imagine the amount of guilt MOST people would feel to know they won the tournament off of a skill they were able to learn prior to Nationals, and in manipulating coin flips in a format where they are of utmost importance is nothing short of shameful.

I will agree that coinflips matter way too much in this format, and it makes me think something needs to change, and fast.

 

[Absoltrainer]

[rant]

Nothing has to be proven in this instance, as it has been admitted that the player attempted to manipulate his flips throughout the tournament.

As I stated before, there are many articles on the internet which show you how to manipulate a coin, and studies have been done, which can also be found on the internet, that have proved that coin flips can be manipulated.

All of which doesn't really matter, because you don't have to be successful in your attempt to manipulate the flip in order to violate the TCG rule that says it is unsportsmanlike:cheating for

"ATTEMPTING to manipulate a random result." Look at 7.6.4 of the TCG penalty guidelines.

What are you trying to accomplish here? You think they'll take away the kid's championship win? You think your son will somehow be avenged for his luck based loss?

You know what I see?
I see a "I'm mad that my son lost a match cause of coin flips"

Seriously, you are no better then the people bashing Justin (Master Nat's Champ) because his opponent got a few unlucky coin flips.

You want to know something, not EVERYTHING on the internet is true. I looked up "Coin manipulation." Most of it was magic tricks that involved rolling a METAL coin across your knuckles or twirling it between your fingers. The few websites I found that claimed you could control your coin flips were sketchy at best and sure as heck used tricks that would not work to well on a plastic coin.

My son was knocked out of the National Championships (senior division) in the top cut by an opponent whose father has admitted both verbally and in writing that he was taught how to manipulate a coin flip, conducted further research on manipulation of coin flips, and taught and practiced with his sons the techniques he had developed.
!

Maybe it's just me, but I find it really hard to believe that the father of the kid your son is playing against came up to you, and said "hey I taught my kid how to rig coin flips, so your son didn’t win." However, maybe verbally means you overheard him say it, which could mean you didn't hear the whole story. I digress though. It's the "In writing” part that cracks me up. You are claiming that somewhere there is a written and signed paper where this boy's father outright admitted to cheating.....

People aren't that dumb. The guy who cheats sure as hell isn't going to write it down and sign it. And he certainly isn't going to give evidence to the father of the boy his son just cheated.

I call shenanigans.

You need to grow up and act like an adult. Your kid lost, get over it. Be proud of the fact that your son made Top Cut at the LARGEST Tournament that Pokémon hosts. I don't see your son coming onto the internet and complaining that his opponent cheated him. Your entire posts rants about how this "other kid" broke the SOTG, yet you come on here behind the anonymity of the internet and try to make a scene out of it. You are bashing other players and their parents. You are acting like a sore loser, which is ALSO AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME. If you had an issue with the game, you should have BROUGHT IT UP WITH A JUDGE AT THE MOMENT IT WAS HAPPENING AT THE TOURNAMENT. Complaining about it now just makes you look like a sore loser.

[/rant]

 

[baby mario]

I think a lot of the problem is caused when people seem to be bragging about their ability to manipulate the flip. Whether they can or can't do it, that kind of thing seems like it would definitely provoke resentment and come across as bad SOTG.

Probably best to just keep quiet.

 

[Prof Clay]

How can you police this and how can you prove it to be true? I can say I have trained to flip quarters that land on heads, but without tracking previous flips there would be no way to prove it.

If the coin was a legally accepted randomizer according to the rules of Pokemon, and the flips were performed within the tournament guidelines..our hands are tied as judges

 

[Naki Feralkin]

If you had an issue with the game, you should have BROUGHT IT UP WITH A JUDGE AT THE MOMENT IT WAS HAPPENING AT THE TOURNAMENT.

To be fair, parents aren't allowed in the tournament area, so I would assume Jax wouldn't have even known it was occurring until after the game was already won and done, so I fail to see just how this would be possible. Its not like they would have known about the coin flipping until it was already too late.

I agree with baby mario on this. If you're even admitting to this at all, it is pretty bad SotG. Watch the movie 21, sometime. You'll have your place in the limelight while you're counting cards until someone catches you. Then you fall clear off Cloud 9 when karma bites you in the rear.

It is likely true that Pokemon cannot do anything directly about the nationals title, as its already said and done, however the issue of this at hand is being brought up so this doesn't happen at.. oh, I don't know.. WORLDS?

 

[Hiro]

How can you police this and how can you prove it to be true? I can say I have trained to flip quarters that land on heads, but without tracking previous flips there would be no way to prove it.

If the coin was a legally accepted randomizer according to the rules of Pokemon, and the flips were performed within the tournament guidelines..our hands are tied as judges

I admit, at the time, it was hard for the judges to do anything. In fact I'm not sure how I would of done things if I was judging there.

In the penalty guidelines it says "ATTEMPTING to manipulate a random result." Look at 7.6.4.

Ok in this instance we have verbal admittance from the father, and a posting by the father on another forum admitting to it as well. The Kid WAS attempting to manipulate the coin.

Now I have a hypothetical question. If a player wins Nationals, and they openly admit they were stacking their deck, what would Pokemon do, now that the event is over? Would they say "Oh well its over, who cares" and brush it aside or would they do something? I mean they are manipulating their decks, giving them a unfair advantage. Just like being able to manipulate a coin flip, to give them a unfair advantage.

I suggest you all, who have not, look at my comparison to Counting Cards in Black Jack, and the Movie 21 is a good example (thanks Naki Feralkin).

Also to any who say or think this is all just a sore parent, its not. This is about someone who did something that is in the penalty guidelines, and was not punished.

 

[SLOW DECK]

I think a lot of the problem is caused when people seem to be bragging about their ability to manipulate the flip. Whether they can or can't do it, that kind of thing seems like it would definitely provoke resentment and come across as bad SOTG.

Probably best to just keep quiet.

This is probably the core problem here.

 

[Heatherdu]

How can you police this and how can you prove it to be true? I can say I have trained to flip quarters that land on heads, but without tracking previous flips there would be no way to prove it.

If the coin was a legally accepted randomizer according to the rules of Pokemon, and the flips were performed within the tournament guidelines..our hands are tied as judges

Exactly. From what I have heard and read - the judges did everything right as the coin was unaltered and legal and flipped within the guidelines. So a loophole has now been discovered and needs to be addressed. It doesn't make sense to add a 'do no practice manipulating randomizers' to the rules because it cannot be proven or known without a confession. So what could be done make a randomizer truly random? A die and cup? An electronic device? Is it something that can be done before Worlds?

I'm just guessing here but I doubt the penalty guidelines were consulted. As Prof Clay said the coin and flips were legal so I doubt there was ever a warning or penalty.

 

[jconti2818]

Maybe Pokemon Catcher will be such an important card next set for a second reason besides its implications on game play and deck choice--it will essentially kill one of the most important flippy cards in the current format, Pokemon Reversal. I doubt, especially in the era of junk arm, that anyone will run Reversals anymore once Catcher comes out. The only flips will therefore be for babies and who goes first, so at least 1/3 of the flipping will be gone come Spetember.

jconti2818

 

[LoTad]

JAX54,

Your (3 and only post) on Pokegym seem more like a vindictive character assassination on a family who has been in this game since the beginning. Statements like "you are concerned" are not fooling anyone, as an adult, I have seen that statement used with character assassinations often. Maybe this isn't what you meant to be doing, but you keep bring them back into it. I know the family, I know the issue, and this concerned thread is sounding more like sour grapes of a parent. The legality of coin flipping is something that Pokemon has always upheld since the begginning.

This fooled by randomness issue creates some strong opinions on coin flipping can create a strong bias. A person who thinks they can coin flip will have streaks, and they get "hot". A person who witnesses coin flips head streaks think they cheating. A person who has a steak of tails, just has sour grapes. Pokemon laid out in the roles for a flip to be eye level and flip 3 times. Anyone who wants to fool themselves into becoming a great coin flipper, go for it. Come back to this thread when you find someone who can flip 300 heads out of 500 coins flips.

I just quoted this whole post because I have so much to say.

My mother, Jax54 has only had three posts because she joined the gym to address this clearly important issue. If I were you, I would not post passive aggressive implications targeting people about whom you know nothing. My brother, Ty W (Sneasel2) and my mother (JAX54), have also been in the game for a very, very long time. Are 3-digit POP ID's close enough to "the beginning" for you? We also know the family. We have known and been friends with their family for many years.

"Sour grapes".... interesting. Let's look at what happened. The player involved refused to use any other "randomizer" other than his Chansey coin. His results were so favorable that in the finals, the judges took his coin away from him. Despite there being a very clear rule against manipulating random outcomes, the player involved was allowed to keep playing. His father told several people and actually put it in writing that he taught his sons how to manipulate coin flips, and that they used what they learned in the tournament (within his written statement, he said that they can roll anywhere from sixty to seventy percent heads with their method. That sounds like 300 out of 500 to me). After admitting both orally and in writing that his son, our National Champion, broke the rules throughout the tournament, his son has been allowed to retain his title. I would hardly call this "sour grapes". It's more like... "I cannot believe this blatant breaking of the spirit of the game and the written rules has been allowed to slide in Pokemon."

 

[Brawler]

Well, it hasn't hurt him since is son is the current National Champion with the title and all of the prizes that go along with it. He was able to use his "pet" coin until the final match, and according to his father, after hitting 6 flips in a row in a deck that contained 4 reversals and 4 junk arms, the judges finally gave his son a substitute coin. The father says his son was not used to the flipping the weight of the new coin as it was different than the coin he had practiced with, and the son proceeded to get tails the rest of the game, but still won the Championship. I don't know how far into this second game they were when the coin change was made. Keep in mind that several players had been knocked out of the National Championship who had also complained about the coin use.

This is what is so upsetting. I hate the message this sends to both the Juniors and Seniors that play in this program.



Please don't do that. It is exactly what I was hoping would not happen, young people now feeling they have to learn to manipulate randomizers in order to win. It is wrong. Give the Pokemon officials a chance to straighten out this situation.

I ended up playing the player in question in the final match. After he went 4 for 4 on his coin flips I told the judge i wanted a new coin. I got my request and he started flipping tails. I knew he was trying to do something. While i ended up winning game 2, the fact that his flips won him game 1 had gave him an advantage to go first and win game 3. I also talked to my league leader afterwards and he said if there is a coin used before EX Ruby and Sapphire, the opponent has the consent to whether the player in question can use it or not. I was never informed of this. It upset me because since there were many calls in the previous rounds you'd think the Judges would have thought to mention this to me. But I digress, and maybe some people may just flip heads.


I also want to make clear, it wasn't the judges who were planning to take it away. I had to speak up or they were going to let him use it. I had to tell them more than once as well.

 

[iLifeless]

Some people are also usingofficial Japanese Chansey coins which are weighted to flip more heads,and it's legal to use it in most tournaments. Glad i'm happy that we in holland play dice which we get from the judges most of the time.

 

[Naki Feralkin]

Moral of the story should be, why let this slide at all? I've heard rumors that the Japanese do this with no penalty. Why? This kind of crap in general should not be tolerated at any level.

This will continue to be a chain reaction of crap until this is taken care of. Because if one person does it and it "goes off easy", then another person will decide: "Well, if he can do it, then I can too!", and this will go on and on until the entire die rolling/coin flipping nonsense blacks the entire SotG with corruption.

Someone please fix this crap before worlds. This game is supposed to be "luck" oriented and skill oriented.

 

[jeanneP]

So they finally removed that coin upon Brawler's request....why didn't they do it earlier when repeatedly asked by others? What made the judges finally question those flips? Since he wasn't technically breaking the rules I understand that no cautions or warnings were given but at what point do the judges inform the other judges of issues just in case they come up again? Did other judges even know that this kid's flips were questioned from one round to the next? Just curious....always learning!

 

[Hiro]

I ended up playing the player in question in the final match. After he went 4 for 4 on his coin flips I told the judge i wanted a new coin. I got my request and he started flipping tails. I knew he was trying to do something. While i ended up winning game 2, the fact that his flips won him game 1 had gave him an advantage to go first and win game 3. I also talked to my league leader afterwards and he said if there is a coin used before EX Ruby and Sapphire, the opponent has the consent to whether the player in question can use it or not. I was never informed of this. It upset me because since there were many calls in the previous rounds you'd think the Judges would have thought to mention this to me. But I digress, and maybe some people may just flip heads.

I also want to make clear, it wasn't the judges who were planning to take it away. I had to speak up or they were going to let him use it. I had to tell them more than once as well.

I have been going through that in my head for a while actually. As a Judge (But not a judge at Nats), there have been times when someone has called upon me saying "My opponent keeps getting heads." I simply say "Use a different coin/dice" About 90%-95% of the time its a simple ok and they switch, I watch the match for a few more minutes to make sure(wait for a few flips of course). Now there has been a time when the players does state that he is using a coin and doesn't want to change because it is his 'lucky' coin.

Now not to be the mean guy, but yeah when a player says the coin is lucky, I get suspicious. But I will of course not say a thing about that, but if a player thinks is really is luck, and there is no cheating (Which does happen, especially in the younger ages, the coin with their favorite Pokemon or what not), I try to explain that the coin will still bring them 'luck' but by just sitting their and not flipping.

What I am getting at is, if there is EVER something that seems suspicious about flipping, heck, ANYTHING, and the same player is being called upon, something should be done, LONG before when it did in this case. Because if the kid was doing nothing wrong, then there wouldn't of been an issue with using a different coin.

And to Brawler, I applaud you for standing up for the issue, and making sure that he did use a different coin.

 

[Brawler]

He was also really reluctant to change. If the person had a technique but really didn't care, they would have been fine. But he didn't really want to change. At this point I'm trying to play a game and when my opponent hits 4 heads in a row it's not really a fun game anymore.

 

[Otaku]

Nothing has to be proven in this instance, as it has been admitted that the player attempted to manipulate his flips throughout the tournament.

Negative. I am pretty sure that it still has to be proven as fact. At the very least you need the player or the father in question to admit this, for the record, to some of significance in the OP hierarchy. I know neither you, your son, the player in question, or his father. As such both of you have more or less equal motivation to lie about this fact; given that you have little to lose and something to gain you might even have more motivation.

Regardless of that, you also aren't acknowledging that some people believe they have abilities and skills they do not possess. The actual rules do merely state the attempt to manipulate is prohibited, but do you honestly believe that it TPC would worry about efforts that are based on belief and not a realistic chance of actually influencing the event outcome? By your reasoning, all players with "lucky" rituals based essentially on magic are guilty and should be punished because they knowingly tried to manipulate the outcome of random events. Yes, a more serious attempt is disconcerting to say the least, but right now the burden of proof is on you. Others have made compelling cases that manipulating coin tosses while following the prescribed coin toss rules is little more than an illusion caused by having too small a sample size. Statements like

As I stated before, there are many articles on the internet which show you how to manipulate a coin, and studies have been done, which can also be found on the internet, that have proved that coin flips can be manipulated.

I have learned many times I doom my own arguments when I make such statements. The internet often has incorrect information, and people who vehemently defend it. This isn't necessarily even intentional misinformation: outdated information or debunked theories often never truly die out just because they remain perpetually floating in the ether of cyberspace. At the very least you need to present the technique or techniques you believe the supposed "cheaters" used.

All of which doesn't really matter, because you don't have to be successful in your attempt to manipulate the flip in order to violate the TCG rule that says it is unsportsmanlike:cheating for

"ATTEMPTING to manipulate a random result." Look at 7.6.4 of the TCG penalty guidelines.

I am the type of person loathe to place an emphasis on ignoring the letter of the law to follow the spirit of the law, but I am hard pressed not to make that argument here: the attempt at manipulating the flip needs to be able to succeed. Just because I think my "trick flip" works, doesn't mean it works. I suppose if someone confesses (to a Judge) to attempting a realistic cheat that can't actually work, you can still issue a punishment, but if they confessed I'd also be inclined towards some leniency unless it was clear they are only doing it because someone was about to prove it.

Are you legitimately concerned about there being a valid method of cheating through coin tosses? Then you are going about it all wrong. You'll have to let this championship issue go completely. Just focus on your actual concern. Personally I am quite pleased with the point Baby Mario brought up: player's need to keep their mouths shut because its hard to tell when someone is serious or joking, or when what they think they can do actually can be done. This isn't about protecting cheaters, either: as a child I often thought I had "secret skills" because I was a fanciful little child convinced he was just so much cleverer than he actually was.

If what you say is true, something should be done. No I am not calling you a liar but based on what little information I have, there is no way for me to know. This issue with coin tosses and dice rolls are why I favored d12 before they were outlawed: the odds of someone being able to subtly manipulate the dice roll were negligible, but it was the most sides I found a die could have before it rolled so uncontrollable that it wasn't a nuisance. By nuisance, I mean rolling all over and off the table or similar occurrences. It might make the game a little less accessible, but we may need to insist "official" games use the most secure possible random number generator, and TPC will probably need to include such things with appropriate products (like gift sets or starter decks).

 

[losjackal]

Boy, this is a sticky situation. I want to stay out of it, but as the father of the Junior division champ, I share Heatherdu's concern about what can be done about it in time for Worlds, so I do want to at least share my thoughts as impartially as possible.

There are a number of issues under discussion here, let's list them out:

1. The issue of the coin being switched during the Senior Finals
2. Pokemon's current definition and enforcement of rules, especially what determines a legal flip and whether 7.6.4 applies
3. The fact that the Japanese do it, and our players will be facing them, so will that given them an unfair advantage
4. Is it possible to influence the outcome enough to really matter

#1. Brawler says the player rolled 4 heads, the coin was switched, and then he rolled a bunch of tails.
If those were four tails in a row, all this proves is that his flips were on average, 50%! Said another way, after the coin was switched, he had an equally likely chance of rolling all heads instead of all tails. The coin has no memory.

#2. PokePop clarified for us the definition of an acceptable flip. The Judges addressed the situation as best as possible. Section 7.6.4 about intent is really the only remaining uncertain issue, and really can only be analyzed after the fact, so the stakeholders need to continue to pursue that if they want to. Maybe some examples of what other kinds of situations this "intent to influence a random outcome" might come up, since clearly someone thought of it enough to write it into the penalty guidelines.

#3. This is what concerns me the most. I would like a randomizer to be provided on the tournament floor (even without a cup) to be the only official die to be used for flips. Jimmy Ballard did this at IL States 2010 with the souvenir die that was given to all players, and I would assume any player who objects would have something to hide. The problem I suspect is, this is the Japanese's game, and we're just playing it. If skilled coin flipping is an inherent part of the way they play the game, I don't know if whomever is in charge of organizing the Worlds tournament would prohibit them from playing that piece of the game.

#4. Despite what is in writing or what isn't, people seem to be taking the parent's word that up to 70% favorable outcome is possible. That means out of 500 flips, only 150 are tails. What Slow Deck is saying is that is almost unbelievable...statistically speaking, he would be shocked if it could be influenced by any more than 5%. I believe 5% could be possible, but then is that enough to reliably influence any given match (consisting of 10 flips or less, for example) to truly make a difference? It's almost impossible to prove it if you say "yes", and if you admit "no" but still want to argue it you have to wind it back to the "intent" aspect.


I offer this breakdown just so we can keep the discussion organized and hopefully as unemotional as possible.