Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

New ideas for stopping turn 1 wins

Also, just because this is the way the game has always been, doesn't mean we should just blindly accept it.

Well, we sort of do. Although TPCI does listen to players about several things that they can control (the ranking system, early rotation, the delayed ban for JPN cards), in the end, we have to accept and play the cards (and the game rules) that JPN produces. Those have always included cards that donk in certain situations, along with other luck-based effects like coinflips. Because of this, we can only assume that that is how JPN wants the game to be.

Will our 'non acceptance' of donks change that? I sincerely doubt it. What do you suggest we do about it?
 
I like 'both players not being able to attack on their first turn' the best. It's the easiest to enforce and although it's just another advantage for the player going first, at least the player going second is GUARANTEED a turn where they could possibly put out basics.

I really don't like to see the donk on either players' first turn. It's just bad for the game in my opinion.
 
@Prime:
Understandable, but then you can't use cards like Cleffa T1.

If I could make a rule to semi-help with donking. The rule would be as follows.
No person can lose at the beginning of their first turn. (in other words, who ever wins the coin flip, and beautifully sets up a k.o/donk before the opponent even gets to draw, hasn't won just yet. The opponent has until the end of that turn to put down a bench/setup.)
 
@Prime:
Understandable, but then you can't use cards like Cleffa T1.

If I could make a rule to semi-help with donking. The rule would be as follows.
No person can lose at the beginning of their first turn. (in other words, who ever wins the coin flip, and beautifully sets up a k.o/donk before the opponent even gets to draw, hasn't won just yet. The opponent has until the end of that turn to put down a bench/setup.)

Then just Eeek at the beginning of your second turn.
 
Then just Eeek at the beginning of your second turn.

Will that matter as much, though? You've had two turns to use Supporters and Trainers by that point, and if you've gone first your opponent still has only had one turn. Given the history of Pokemon, smart money is on aggressive decks.

Especially if your opponent opened with a Cleffa, since it will obviously be awake. The donk has been most likely averted, but I think this would radically shift how the game is played. If you try to keep using Cleffa or Pichu for set-up, half your openings are going to be "Go second, start with an effective one-Prize deficit".

I'll say it again, but isn't it overall just as effective to require a player have two Basic Pokemon in play to open the game (and avoid a mulligan) than make such a special rule? In the current format it is indeed possible to "donk" someone first turn who started with two Pokemon by having both a second Pokemon of your own to "bounce" and a Seeker, on top of whatever else you need to pull off the actual OHKO. That isn't as easy as it sounds, though obviously actual donk decks will pull it off.

Here's the thing: altering the game so you can't attack first turn for either player is going to make things more complex for newer/younger players, and devalues "set-up" attacks to the point I don't think they'd remain competitive, barring a Twins intensive build. It would reduce donks, but not enough for the complications it introduces.

Oh, and once Seeker is gone, unless another first turn bounce or damage counter placement card (potent or simply easy to SPAM) is introduced, the "double basic to avoid mulligan" change does eliminate the first and second turn donks.:thumb:
 
Good luck getting 2 basics without mulligan a million times. It'd tack on an extra 5 minutes each game, I'd guarantee you. Players aren't going to run more basics just because of it, either.

It's much easier to say neither player can attack on their first turn. Decks don't have to change, players don't have to mulligan a million times. They just can't attack on their first turn.

Yes, it invalidates cards like Cleffa on turn 1, but Cleffa is one of the main causes of the first-turn donk currently with it's low HP and decks running plus powers. It's not wild to think that changing the pace of the game would affect older cards that were designed under the old system.

Does the game even need starter pokemon? The video sure doesn't have them, unless you count pokemon that abuse those switching abilities and stat buffers, but that still doesn't translate exactly to the starters you see in the TCG.

Not attacking on either players' first turn eliminates first-turn donk 100% of the time in EVERY FORMAT EVER DESIGNED. 2 basics out didn't save anyone against Sabledonk last format.
 
Not attacking on either players' first turn eliminates first-turn donk 100% of the time in EVERY FORMAT EVER DESIGNED. 2 basics out didn't save anyone against Sabledonk last format.

Let's keep this brief (which is part of why I just quoted the last line), and yeah I mean brief by my standards. :biggrin:

1) A large part of the first turn issues comes from various cards that have been designed and released. It demonstrates a possible issue with the game's core rules, but this isn't confirmed.

2) Donking seems to be intentional to the game, possibly to discourage incredibly low Pokemon counts, possibly just because the designers like it.

3) Exaggeration do not help, as it confuses what you are saying. Unlimited would still have Crobat G donks, and who is to say a future card combo couldn't reintroduce it? If there was a first turn Poison/Burn combo Ability combo... also seriously, it would not be a million mulligans. I know you were trying to prove a point, but give me a realistic guess at least so we can actually discuss the point. ;)

4) Addressing my point, while I did indeed want to keep things "simple", along with requiring a two-basic Start we might consider adjusting the mulligan penalty. Find the right one, and players will definitely make sure to run a healthy number of basics (where healthy=mulligan infrequently).

Again, brief by my standards, and the suggestion of keeping it brief was more to constrain my responses than your own. :lol:
 
I think part of the problem with these discussions is that they veer off into three separate topics that get tossed around.

1) Eliminating "Donking"

2) Let the First Turn happen for each player

3) Letting the 2nd turn player do things


While the line between 2 and 3 are blurred, I mean in the sense that one arguement made is to eliminate attacks- which is a decent argument, but if you're going second and you hand/field is Cleffa, Twins, Energy Energy Energy, Interviewer's Questions, Junk Arm, and Rare Candy on the draw, chances are we're going to have the discussion that the second turn player should have a fighting chance. This can also be blurred with Donking, in that Donking essentially means, now, "Knocking out the opponent before they can play cards".

The game is going to naturally adjust to new rules and players will find ways to make games as quick and painless as possible. For now it's donking, but next format, if it changes, we'll have to deal with lockdowns, new donks, or other ridiculous things to complain about.
 
Play wobbufet.

Opponent starts with yanma, now has 2 retreat.
Opponent starts with cleffa, now has 2 retreat.

I fixed the game.

Stop complaining about donks, it's a flaw with the game that people abuse, people can hit for 120+ turn 1, just hope they don't
 
ITT: Is/ought fallacy.

Nobody likes getting donked. Players have asked for changes. They have not made such changes. You have to decide when you enter a tournament if you are playing for fun, to win or a mix.

If it is to win, Tyrogue it up.
 
ITT: Is/ought fallacy.

Nobody likes getting donked. Players have asked for changes. They have not made such changes. You have to decide when you enter a tournament if you are playing for fun, to win or a mix.

If it is to win, Tyrogue it up.

I like playing for fun but, I can't stand getting donked. I don't play to sit down and sign a match slip. No only does it make you mad, but it also makes you look bad.

When I got donked round 1, my opponent's friends though I did not show up for my match.
 
Am I the only one amused to see Vaporeon reply and counter Flareon? Anyone named Jolteon care to come in and counter?

That aside, them's the breaks, OP. You either run more basics, for a donk every X-TB (where TB=factor of increaced basics), or you accept that the statistics will grant you a donk every X games.
There's no way to make x=0 short of running 56 arceus in a deck last format (with 55 even then you could play down two and have a 5 energy hand, and get seeker donked by ZPS)
Crap happens.
 
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