Not understanding the Dawn Stadium ruling.

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Robbgobb, Jun 9, 2008.

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  1. Robbgobb

    Robbgobb New Member

    I have asked on Ask the Masters but saw was suggested to someone else to discuss it here. I am confused by the ruling on Dawn Stadium. There are other things that look at something and will happen such as Houndooms' Black Fire attack. Dawn Stadium has on it "for each energy card attached remove 1 damage counter" and the ruling say "Whenever" means that it would only look once per effect for if an energy is attached. If that is true then why would there need to be the word "card" even on the text with any attachment only healing 1 damage counter.

    I would think with the word "card" being part of the text that the stadium would be looking to see how many energy cards were attached for any action. I don't know where to find the ruling that would state why Dawn Stadium would see that an energy card was attached and not look to see if more was attached since it looks for energy cards and not energy. Would this work different with MD Manaphy since it has a body that uses "when" and not "whenever"? There has been many discussions since D&P sets because of the use of the word "card" and not using it that I am truly confused and wonder where I find out how things work.
  2. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    I sympathise with your confusion.

    It seems to hinge upon how "whenever" works in pokemon tcg. The two energy cards that Peliper attaches form an indivisible pair. So Dawn stadium sees the energy card being attached and triggers the whenever...remove 1 damage counter.

    Dawn Stadium does not see a separate attachment for the second energy card. It just comes along for the ride.

    It would have helped if the English Dawn Stadium used a non-singular form Whenever you attach any energy cards from your hand to ........remove 1 damage... "any" can be 1 or more

    I'm curious as to what the Japanese card says. Does anyone know?
  3. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    This particular ruling was made using feedback from Japan, so it is not based just on our understanding.
    The rules team agrees with it, however.

    The trigger is the act of attachment.
    Some effects (most, actually) attach one energy at a time and each attachment is a seperate and unique act. In these cases, each unique attachment triggers Dawn Stadium.

    Pelipper's attack, however, is one event. All energy that is being attached is done simultaneously. As one event, it triggers Dawn Stadium just one time.
  4. toxictaipan

    toxictaipan New Member

    I believe that if it didn't say "card" then Sceptile might give it a boost to remove 2 damage counters. I'm not sure though, I haven't read Sceptile many times, but that sounds right.
  5. Chairman Kaga

    Chairman Kaga Active Member

    It would still just remove 1.

    The card is providing 2 Energy with Sceptile in play, but there's still only one attachment event that triggers.
  6. Black Mamba

    Black Mamba New Member

    Ugh, I don't like this ruling. It really screws up an awesome deck idea that I had coming with the next set. -_-
  7. Scizor

    Scizor New Member

    I'm not sure I get the confusion. The card says an energy and is very clear about what it does. It's crystal to me.
  8. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    If you attach an energy normally then, say use Leafeon level X to attach a second energy to the same Pokemon, Dawn Stadium will heal 2 damage counters. 1 for each attachment ... and here is where the confusion comes in. Is it for each ENERGY attached or each ATTACHMENT action? The ruling is the latter but the langage on the card seems to indicate that the number of energy attached is the main thing.

    Just wondering ... was there a similar ruling for Togekiss and Magmortar? Does Serene Grace heal only 2 damage counters no matter how many energy are attached? I didn't see anything in ask the masters. (Goes to check the compendium)....
  9. Black Mamba

    Black Mamba New Member

    magmortar is attachment from your hand.
  10. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Serene Grace will heal ZERO counters.
    It is not from your hand.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  11. Robbgobb

    Robbgobb New Member

    Guess I will not understand but appreciate the effort given. The word "card" is what makes it confusing to me with other cards looking at effects differently. I think "Whenever energy attachment to a water or grass Pokemon from a players hand then remove 1 damage counter and all Special Conditions" would have prevented my confusion. I just feel that if a card is states that cards have an effect then would look for how many cards were present for the effect.

    Thanks again for the explanation.
  12. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    "Card" is an important word.
    Don't get me wrong.
    However, it is not the only word in the sentence and the other words must be taken into account as well.

    It could have said "for each energy card you attach from your hand..."
    That would work the way you are thinking.
  13. Turtok

    Turtok New Member

    So... Blastoise's Waterlog would only heal one damage counter? What if I attach energies to multiple Pokemon?
  14. treyh37

    treyh37 Member

    yeah waterlogs the example used in the compendium to say it only gives one, didn't find it tell i wrote the pelipper question, which more or less answered the my question.

    course this was partly brought up cause i misread the cards at the time and the scenario was more complicated.
    ie pelipper down 50hp did guzzle with dawn stadium in play and a leftovers attached removed, healed to full but thought i got 2 from guzzle(misread it), 2 from dawn stadium and 1 from leftovers.

    but it seemed so good i decided to ask cause its seemed a decent move
  15. Turtok

    Turtok New Member

    But still, my question remains, if I attach energies to multiple Pokémon using Waterlog, does it take off 1 damage counter each, or one overall?

    Either way it's a stupid ruling in my eyes, and it makes a card that seemed so damn good and turned it into a big "meh". I'll probably house rule it for my little group.
  16. Pajamas

    Pajamas <a href="

    I really don't want to beat these rulings to death, but it seems that there's more complexity that I previously saw. There are a whole lot of issues at play here... I'm going to try to flesh all of them out individually so we can try to have them all addressed. Here's a list of things we know from current ATM rulings:

    Pelipper GE's Guzzle is an atomic action. Even though you're attaching two cards, it's one action to one Pokemon, so Dawn Stadium removes one counter. So far, so good.

    Manaphy MD's Fountain is not an atomic action. Things start to get a little hazy here. The explanation given in ATM is "Since the energy is coming from your hand, each and every one would trigger the damage removal." This can't be the actual justification, or else the Pelipper ruling would look totally different. The best assumption I can make is that because it's possible to split the attachments between two Pokemon, attaching them both to the same Pokemon constitutes two separate actions.

    Blastoise SW's Waterlog is an atomic action. Even though it is a "once during your turn" effect, this is confusing because it seems a lot more like Fountain than Guzzle... you're attaching a bunch of energy to any number of Pokemon, but somehow it only removes one counter.

    There are two things that would help me to understand all of these rulings better: an improved explanation of why Fountain can remove two counters in combination with Dawn, or if my explanation of this phenomenon suffices, then an explanation of how this effect differs from Waterlog.
  17. PokeMontoya

    PokeMontoya New Member

    so which way is leafeon ruled then i see energy forcing as a seperate action so with 2 in play and your normal attachment you can heal 3?
  18. Chairman Kaga

    Chairman Kaga Active Member

    Some clarification is needed.

    Those look like the same wording to me. It can't happen both ways.
  19. Pajamas

    Pajamas <a href="

    Well, since rulings typically follow "play it like Japan" rather than "play it as written", it's conceivable that it could in fact happen both ways. I'm totally okay with that... we just need to know what it is. In any case, I posted this question comparing the wording of Dawn Stadium to Electivire Lv.X a week ago, and it has so far gone unanswered. I would venture that Team Compendium's silence in this thread and that one could mean that some of these rulings were not confirmed with Japan, and a new ruling could be forthcoming. I'm certainly looking forward to hearing some sort of confirmation on how all of these cases are supposed to be ruled.
  20. hakuyou

    hakuyou New Member

    disregard my post i got my answer

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