that's shady. Martin has been all class since that questionable incident. he has played amazingly all season and i wasn't there, but if it wasn't even a top-cut game and pointed out with no warnings or anyone being approached beforehand then it seems to be an improper ruling as well as a biased one.
Oklahoma state championships
- Thread starter old man
- Start date
that's shady. Martin has been all class since that questionable incident. he has played amazingly all season and i wasn't there, but if it wasn't even a top-cut game and pointed out with no warnings or anyone being approached beforehand then it seems to be an improper ruling as well as a biased one.
djjonnytsunami
New Member
To add to this, I got two different rulings for the exact situation.
In round five, I played against an Absol/Chomp. After time was called, we played the three turns like we were supposed to. At the end of the last turn, we both had one prize left. Two judges were watching us, since we took so long, and said that we were supposed to start over in sudden death (which I lost).
In round six, I played against the Tangrowth Lv X. The exact same thing happened. After the end of the three turns, we were both down two one prize. My opponent didn't know what to do; but since this just happened to me, I thought I was so smart for knowing the answer. After we both scooped our decks to start shuffling, the judges came by and said that we weren't supposed to do that. They said that we were supposed to continue playing until the next prize was taken. Since we both scooped, that means that either one of us had to agree to a loss or it would be a double loss. She was arguing that she would have revenge killed my Gyarados next turn with Roserade afer I just took our her Landmin. Although her argument was invalid (I could have easily wap/seeker to heal Gyarados), I agreed to take a loss instead of being a [insert adjective here] and forcing us to take a double loss.
In either situation, I would have took the next prize if the match continued. But since the judges game me two different rulings, I came out of the short end of the stick. This was my first event to go to, outside of the Call of Legends Prerelease, so I didn't know any better.
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At the Pokemon Black and White Mall tour I got to speak to a highly respected Head Judge from a little south of the area this event took place in and was assured a 1 game top cut double penalty is not acceptable. After reading there has been other issues arising aside from the game loss that was given to me and the eventual winner of this tournament I feel it's my responsibility to compile a report to Pokemon and send it in sometime this week. I can't even describe the feeling I had when I was taken aside and told there was an issue with my deck when every sleeve had some sort of distinct imperfection. They took aside 3 Cyrus and 3 Collectors and said the imperfections were similar. I pull out a Dialga and show the judge it had a similar crease and the Head Judge then tries to tell me that the bend was in a different direction then the collectors and cyrus which are criticial cards to the deck. I then tell him "Every card is critical to the deck that dosent even make sense". He literally was concocting a story to give me a loss.
After about 20 minutes of the judges doing whatever it is they do somehow they find an error with my opponents deck too after the check and we both start 0-1? I have never witnessed something so shady in my entire 10 years of playing Pokemon.
After about 20 minutes of the judges doing whatever it is they do somehow they find an error with my opponents deck too after the check and we both start 0-1? I have never witnessed something so shady in my entire 10 years of playing Pokemon.
Tylertyphlosion
New Member
How is it shady when BOTH players were given a loss?
The judges were following rules and that is what they are there for. When a Judge misses marks on cards in deck-check, well it happens. By seeing the markings at a critical point and not just short-handing you by giving only YOU a penalty, they gave BOTH of you the penalty as it was only fair.
Understand, this is a game that we are supposed to be enjoying! Try to not take all of the fun out of it, that just ruins the game for everyone else.
The judges were following rules and that is what they are there for. When a Judge misses marks on cards in deck-check, well it happens. By seeing the markings at a critical point and not just short-handing you by giving only YOU a penalty, they gave BOTH of you the penalty as it was only fair.
Understand, this is a game that we are supposed to be enjoying! Try to not take all of the fun out of it, that just ruins the game for everyone else.
butlerforhire
New Member
All kinds of things can be "wrong" with sleeves-- 1, 10, 60 of them-- that no one ever notices except for judges with microscopes. Identifying issues with sleeves is one thing, but assuming that the player with those sleeves was using them intentionally to gain any sort of edge is absurd and insulting. I hate how judges assume that the integrity of players is inherently low. I hate the idea that I will make cut, submit my deck and then get called over and informed that I essentially cheated all day because 2 of my sleeves had slight creases in them that neither I or anyone else noticed. Judges seem to think that players actually sit there at the tables poring over the backs of every card on the top of the deck and in the prizes just looking for that special mark denoting POKEMON COLLECTOR! or PSYCHIC ENERGY! The assumption should not be that a player is guilty until proven innocent, but right now that is the way it is. Spirit of the game gets abandoned so often by indiscriminate judges and, in some cases, bad core penalty guidelines.
There is nothing fun about being accused of cheating for something completely unnoticed by all but the microscope-bearers with a dour view of the player base's ethical development. People with sleeve issues that are ambiguous-- ie that don't SCREAM out that the player was intentionally marking-- should be allowed to re-sleeve with a warning at max, not given game losses or DQes. The question of how to determine clear cheating from ambiguity may be fuzzy, but that's just how things of this nature are. You can't assume everyone is out to cheat. People get over-punished for accidents that give no benefits to anyone.
I say all of this without ever having had any serious sleeve problems, so no one can accuse me of simply being sour about a personal experience.
There is nothing fun about being accused of cheating for something completely unnoticed by all but the microscope-bearers with a dour view of the player base's ethical development. People with sleeve issues that are ambiguous-- ie that don't SCREAM out that the player was intentionally marking-- should be allowed to re-sleeve with a warning at max, not given game losses or DQes. The question of how to determine clear cheating from ambiguity may be fuzzy, but that's just how things of this nature are. You can't assume everyone is out to cheat. People get over-punished for accidents that give no benefits to anyone.
I say all of this without ever having had any serious sleeve problems, so no one can accuse me of simply being sour about a personal experience.
mfgoodsale
New Member
Based on this description, People are going to start mistaking us for twins
Judges are only human and you have to take into consideration that they have been working a lot longer than you have by the time the top cut comes around. If you think you are tired as a player, you need to look at the judges prospective of being on their feet all day. You have the luxury of sitting down to play.
It is impossible to know all of the rules and all of the cards and be expected to know what every single card does.
Cards change out and are reprinted and the rules change every season.
The engineers adjustment being mistaken as a trainer card isn't THAT bad. (it does kind of look like a trainer and it is not a commonly used supporter like bebe's or pokemon collector) Seems like the judge was just looking out for the best interest of keeping the game state right. And the judge had to know at least something about the game to know that vileplume shuts down trainers.
All of the judges at OK States were either seasoned players who have played the game longer than 5 years or have judged in many events.
Sudden death is not a basic rule of the game. I have never been to a top cut and I don't think I have ever been in a sudden death situation or know any one who has. And to go sudden death in top cut is rare too.
Most judges I know are older and have full time jobs and Pokemon is their hobby. It is understandable to want the perfect game every time you play but even in the NFL bad calls are made and are corrected by officials.
And props to you for not being unethical during your match and keeping it honest, but aren't you being kind of unethical now by posting such negative stuff and pointing out others mistakes?
It is impossible to know all of the rules and all of the cards and be expected to know what every single card does.
Cards change out and are reprinted and the rules change every season.
The engineers adjustment being mistaken as a trainer card isn't THAT bad. (it does kind of look like a trainer and it is not a commonly used supporter like bebe's or pokemon collector) Seems like the judge was just looking out for the best interest of keeping the game state right. And the judge had to know at least something about the game to know that vileplume shuts down trainers.
All of the judges at OK States were either seasoned players who have played the game longer than 5 years or have judged in many events.
Sudden death is not a basic rule of the game. I have never been to a top cut and I don't think I have ever been in a sudden death situation or know any one who has. And to go sudden death in top cut is rare too.
Most judges I know are older and have full time jobs and Pokemon is their hobby. It is understandable to want the perfect game every time you play but even in the NFL bad calls are made and are corrected by officials.
And props to you for not being unethical during your match and keeping it honest, but aren't you being kind of unethical now by posting such negative stuff and pointing out others mistakes?
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butlerforhire
New Member
Are you serious?
Judges SHOULD know "everything" pertaining to the rules of the game, or at least know enough to know when they DON'T know something 100% so that they can go get the correct information from the Compendium or the HJ, etc.. The Sudden Death rule is most certainly part of the core TOURNAMENT rules, and every single judge and player on the premises for any tournament should know it either when they walk in or when they are informed at the start of top cut (at this event, there was no full top cut rundown given pre-play). That you would consider this a minor error is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is your suggestion that I am somehow "unethical" for pointing this out as an error. How is it "unethical" to mention a judge's inexplicable mistake? Being tired is no excuse; not having been in top cut before is no excuse (and this judge has been anyway); SD in top cut is NOT that rare; and so on. None of your points are valid.
Basically you just tried to do what so many others ineffectively have over the years, which is defend bad judging and/or bad tournament practices when you really need to step aside and let the information speak.
I didn't name names, so no one "gets hurt" by me putting this info out there. I am not personally attacking this judge. I only want the issues that arose to be corrected and not reoccur, specifically next weekend when I compete again (and may very well get the same judge at some point throughout the day). Things should only get better if someone in power sees this and simply takes the time to inform his/her staff on important matters such as how top cut works. I didn't even list all of the things the judge I had did wrong either-- there was also the O.K. given prematurely for us to shuffle before time had started (which I repeatedly ignored because the HJ told us not to). You can argue that this is "minor," but it really isn't. Nothing is minor. Judges should not contradict the rules; they should enforce them. How absurd my opponent and I would have looked shuffling our decks when the other 14 people around us were sitting there waiting for their 2 allocated minutes to randomize. We could've even been penalized for it and had to point to the judge who instructed us to get out of trouble. How absurd would THAT have been?
As a HJ I would hate to see a lack of uniformity in my staff. As a player I hate to see it too.
rokman
<a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p
If being fatigued makes you more likely to make bad calls, then you need to either lose weight or stop judging.
No, it isn't impossible.
And that's fine. But if they make consistently bad calls, they don't need to judge, they should play or spectate.
mfgoodsale
New Member
In my previous post I forgot to compliment the two judges in the seniors finals. They were great. Thanks guys.
keniselvis
New Member
They could always issue free sleeves to everyone and make everyone resleeve. At least we'd come away with a free pack of sleeves!!!
Martin -
Sorry. That came out wrong on my part. Your reputation I was speaking of is that of a top caliber player, and the only person who has gone undefeated winning a Masters National title. I meant nothing else by that, but I can see why you would think so.
---------- Post added 03/15/2011 at 06:01 PM ----------
For anyone who had a problem with a judge giving a wrong ruling, let ME know who that was by name or description by a PM to or email to me. I will do what I can to take corrective action.
Now for those that did get a "questionable" ruling, did you ask for anyone higher up the chain?
For the sleeve issue I was informed of and the issue about the double scoop.
For Martin - You must have forgot I told you I also talked to Pokepop, and he would've done something different than what we did. Don't know who you talked to, unless you mean Birch. Go ahead and write the report to POP. I feel my staff was justified in what they did. And I do have the sleeves by the way.
Dude...
100% Really? I don't even think Pokepop (the guy in the Ask the rules team) knows EVERYTHING about the game on the spot. I am sure he has to look at the wordings of cards or the rule guide. Did the judge argue with you on these rulings? I am confused why you are so upset. I have had bad calls made against me even @ the State level , but I don't spit rants on the gym when it happens... especially when there might be a chance they could read it.
You need to chill.... did you lose that game or what because you are obviously very bitter?
You act like judges get paid for what they do (correct me if they do, because if they do, maybe I should become a judge)
Pokemon is supposed to be a game of fun and learning . I am sure even judges learn something new every event they judge.
Maybe Pokemon isn't the game for you because you are perfectionist and you are taking the fun out of playing and judging.
100% Really? I don't even think Pokepop (the guy in the Ask the rules team) knows EVERYTHING about the game on the spot. I am sure he has to look at the wordings of cards or the rule guide. Did the judge argue with you on these rulings? I am confused why you are so upset. I have had bad calls made against me even @ the State level , but I don't spit rants on the gym when it happens... especially when there might be a chance they could read it.
You need to chill.... did you lose that game or what because you are obviously very bitter?
You act like judges get paid for what they do (correct me if they do, because if they do, maybe I should become a judge)
Pokemon is supposed to be a game of fun and learning . I am sure even judges learn something new every event they judge.
Maybe Pokemon isn't the game for you because you are perfectionist and you are taking the fun out of playing and judging.
David's Confused Pokedad
New Member
Hope you guys can get it returned to you.
h0bbesteroo
New Member
Actually, I got a PM from Old Man and he said that someone turned it in.:thumb:
Thank you!
Thank you!
Thank you!
to Whoever turned it in
My son is still grounded though. He left it by the pool which he wasn't supposed to go in.
I have another favor for one of you Oklahoma players coming to Texas on Saturday. Can you get with Roy and bring it to Texas States?
If not... I'll just pay Roy to ship it.
butlerforhire
New Member
Yeah, you're right. Judges should be free to make mistakes all day and all night.
You don't know anything about the competitive side of this game, apparently, from your asinine remarks about what you perceive this game is supposed to be and how things are supposed to be run (fun, fun, fun! No high standards for anyone! No accountability! Bad calls can be made all day!). I am not bitter, I am not "unethical" (lol from your last post), I am not anything other than a player who expects certain things when I go to events, such as judges making the right calls. You need to stop making assessments of my character and exit this thread now before the foolish hole you're digging is too deep for you to climb out of.
There is a lot at stake in these higher-level events, such as money, valuable invite points, the sheer prestige of winning out over a tough field. Everything that a judge does matters to the people vying for what is at stake. Judges are hired to be correct, to know rulings, to know procedures. If they don't do their job correctly, they are open to criticism. You just want everyone to get a free pass? You want mistakes to continue? You have some kind of passion for mediocrity? You think being incorrect = fun?
The person who I have been talking about contacted me privately and I believe this individual did learn from the mistakes made and will not repeat them. That is the goal of any kind of critique like this. All I want is an assurance that mistakes will not be repeated, and I got it.
boyhoodbraveryx3
New Member
Hold on here, aren't you getting a bit full of yourself? As a female, I would have to disagree with you about "being extremely good looking". I've actually seen you up close and I really don't like what I see. Sometimes, your looks actually creep me out, like a lot.
Sure, you've won a hefty amount of tournaments but to bring looks into this thread is irrelevant...and false, by the way. You should have just kept your ego to winning tournaments because the fact that you're an adult and getting upset over a game of Pokemon means something else... don't cha think?
Also, you weren't the only one with a game loss in that match so quit being a baby!