One legendary pokemon in the VG, many in the TCG?

[signofzeta]

I was thinking about the whole legendary rule in the pokemon TCG. Why doesn't the Pokemon TCG restrict your side of the board to only have one legendary pokemon with a specific name allowed as the active pokemon and on the entire bench? I hear all these complaints of big basics, and I wonder why doesn't TPC create super powerful pokemon, that has to be legendary, but only 1 is allowed on the field at a time?

I normally think of the deck, and everything on one side of the field as a copy of the pokemon video game, meaning that the opponent can also play the legendary pokemon of the same name, because you know, when you battle with your DS's, you can battle with the 2 same legendary pokemon.

How would the game be different if these big basic EX pokemon weren't allowed to be put on your bench if another one of the same name was already in play?

 

[tutti]

The video game doesn't, and never did, restrict specifically the number of a given legendary you could have in your team. Standard rules restrict you to one of each pokémon, legendaries do not have a special rule here. Further, any battle format that has such a restriction in the first place bans most legendary pokémon.

 

[Otaku]

Such restrictions don't really fix what is wrong: creating an unbalanced environment by creating overpowered cards, combos, and (ultimately) decks. Past formats where big, Basic Pokémon have dominated (actually how this game began) often involved non-Legendary big, Basic Pokémon. Go look up the original Base Set; the dominant deck was Haymaker, consisting of (at minimum) Hitmonchan and Electabuzz. The two "Legendary" Pokémon of that set (Mewtwo and Zapdos) enjoyed modest success common to most Holo-Rare cards of the time and caused by card shortages. We didn't get a format dominating "Legendary" Pokémon until "Movie Promo" Mewtwo.

Even if the-powers-that-be adopted your suggestion, they'd just create too many powerful cards that didn't fit the rule and/or would create something so powerful that it would still be broken even with the additional rules.

 

[Mattrd08]

Assuming you mean the fact that, under normal circumstances, you can only encounter each legendary Pokemon once per game, it's been pretty well-established in all other forms (and even somewhat in the games as well) that, canonically, legendary Pokemon are all species and are not one unique Pokemon that exists with no others like it, but in the games the Hero just canonically only encounters one. This is made abundantly clear in the anime, in which not only to multiple of many legendary Pokemon exist, but at least a few times multiple of the same legendary have appeared in a single episode (I'm thinking specifically of the mother/baby Lugia episodes). So restricting this in the card game would be silly.

 

[Otaku]

Mattrd08: Going to have to disagree slightly. Already gave why I don't think it would make things any better, but remember to separate game mechanics from "flavor". Being allowed only a single Supporter per each of your turns, for example, is a "game mechanic" issue; it doesn't matter that Ash sometimes received simultaneous help from "supporting" cast characters. The TCG is a different game from the video game, and of course the fiction isn't even a game.

Sometimes mechanics must be tweaked for balance in the "new medium". Legendary Pokémon should not be restricted because they are so scarce in the games/supporting fiction for the reasons you gave - their ultimate rarity is as much a plot contrivance as anything else, and it isn't a real "rule" or anything. If such a rule would actually help (again, I don't believe it would) the fact that most(?) Legendary is considered a separate Pokémon Specie and isn't unique shouldn't stop it.

 

[rivershock]

Yeah, there's only a select few legendaries that are one-ofs. (Possibly just Arceus.) Even in game canon, there's multiple Regis, Dialga/Palkia/Giratina (potentially), etc.

If they truely wanted to balance legendaries (which are only COINCIDENTALLY the problem, Darkrai EX would be just as powerful if it were a Mightyena...), they'd stop making basics so powerful altogether.

Regardless, limiting legendaries is arbitrary at best. A card like Black Kyurem EX (the Freeze Shock one) is terrible. Why should it get restricted because a few (not even all) legendary Pokemon cards are very powerful?

 

[Otaku]

I think the real, specific problem is a matter of pacing.

Right now, we have big, Basic Pokémon that hit fast and hard and/or have useful Abilities first turn. This means Evolving manually is two turns too slow, and even with a cheat is usually one turn to slow. The new first turn rules can alleviate this a little, but at the cost of the often strategic opening turn set-up/disruption attacks... plus given how often first turn rules change, I have little hope of this being "the" solution.

We used to have the reverse problem (Evolutions outclassing all but a few Basic Pokémon) because of Evolution "cheats"... which again is a pacing issue. Attacks and effects that were perfectly balanced because a Stage 2 hit the field "manually" no sooner than a player's third turn were broken because Rare Candy or Broken Time Space allowed access to that attack/Poké-Power/Poké-Body on a player's first/second turn (yeah, sometimes even jumping from Turn 3 to Turn 2 was too much for balance).

So again... pacing.

 

[vaporeon]

People just need to stop complaining about Legendary Pokemon. The game, both the TCG and VGC does not know what a legendary is because legendary is not a mechanic the game understands. They get no special treatment by game rules or anything else. What they need to do is just make a ban list.

 

[Otaku]

People just need to stop complaining about Legendary Pokemon. The game, both the TCG and VGC does not know what a legendary is because legendary is not a mechanic the game understands. They get no special treatment by game rules or anything else. What they need to do is just make a ban list.

Not sure even a Ban List would help... because it would have to be huge to be "fair" and thorough (actually getting rid of all overpowered cards, not just the unlucky few). I've learned from Yu-Gi-Oh I don't care for Ban Lists that are just used to change things - you think it is frustrating when rotation doesn't solve problems? Try when they are literally targeting individual problem cards. XD It can even get "political" when a "character" is too important to the mythos to ban the corresponding cards!

However, you are quite correct; "Legendary" (as we are using it) isn't even a game mechanic. While I could see it becoming one, it wouldn't solve current problems. When "big Basic" Pokémon are problems, sometimes it is the "Legendaries", sometimes it isn't.

 

[vaporeon]

I want them to bad problem cards in Pokemon. Things like Sableye, hypnotoxic laser and a hand full of EX Pokemon like Keldeo and Darkrai. Even place a limit on a few cards like energy accelerators on over powered trainers. Something to show they care about the health of the game and will only use it when its truly needed while sticking with rotation. The rotation we got did not fix anything because everything good was reprinted and with the reprinting of crushing hammer in the same format as sableye, my deck is unplayable so I'm done with the card game altogether.

I hope they dont make legendary a mechanic because I wont be able to play a deck full of Zapdos. I would much rather they stop applying patches to problems and tackle the real issue at hand and its card balance. With XY coming up, which is a new gen, they should want to make the game different. They are stuck on the BW block. What sucks even more is there's talk of BW on sanction events even when XY is full out.

 

[yoshi1001]

As someone who created their own custom format*, I think a better idea on the Pokemon side is to set some general limits on what can be played, and remove a few key trainers (trainers don't really have many classifiable properties like HP, stage, etc., so a specific list is more or less required). Setting a hard line on Pokemon is better than attempting to pick and choose, given the current card pool.

*Hasn't been updated for Legendary Treasures or the new XY rules yet.

 

[Otaku]

Interesting... but I worry we'll have the same problem yoshi1001; the "problem Pokémon" come in all shapes and sizes. Remember, when designing anything like a "Ban List", you've got to make sure the problem is the real problem while thinking three steps ahead (at least). These are things I realized when I was still playing Yu-Gi-Oh.

The "easy to classify" parts of most Pokémon aren't the problem; I don't think anything is truly broken due to its HP in a format of OHKOs and 2HKOs. No, the real problem comes from the pacing, which is due to a combination of attacks, Abilities, and supporting Trainers and Energy.

Broken cards are a mountains and the formats the range; the foot of each mountain can be thought of as a separate format. Right now the mountains in front of us are huge... and they may be the largest in the range. However, there may be larger mountains beyond them that are hidden from view because while bigger (more broken) they are much farther down the range (in a format several cards removed) and are not currently visible to us.

 

[Charranitar]

At this point, I feel like everything has a counter or something to keep it in check, so I don't really see a problem with any overpowered cards in the current format.

I think people just like to complain too much because they lack the creativity to truly figure things out, or think about the problems presented by the meta game on a deeper level to come up with the right deck ideas, lists, or techs.

I'm not a perfect player by any means, but any time that I've come up short in a tournament I don't think there was ever a time that I didn't think afterwards, "Well I could have done this better to get better results." If there is something you can do to help fix whatever problem you faced over the course of the tournament then that is a sign of a healthy format.

There has been a lot of complaining about the format since I've played the game, but I think at the end of the day it just comes across as a bunch of whiny people. I've had plenty of fun from playing Tyranitar Prime, to Mewtwo wars, Smeargle fueled decks, OHKO's with Rayquaza EX/Keldeo EX/Black Kyurem EX/G-Booster, abusing Lasers and shutting them off with Virizion EX, using snipe damage with Darkrai and Landorus EX and shutting it off with Mr. Mime, rocking my Abilities to shutting them off with Garbodor, hating Crushing Hammer to abusing it myself, playing four Catcher and shutting them off with Gothitelle and Vileplume, and playing with some Plasma pokes as well.

It's definitely been a fun 2 years and change playing the game. Just would like to say thanks to Pokemon for creating such fun formats to play in the past few years that I've been playing the game.

There wasn't really a point in playing where I didn't think there was fairly good balance in the game, and the formats have changed pretty much with every set since I started playing. Right now with the catcher nerf and such a large card pool it seems even sillier then ever to complain about the balance of the game, because it's extremely balanced and diverse at the moment!

 

[vaporeon]

When people say counters, they mean a hard counter or something that works almost all the time. Many things in this format does not have hard counters. If said counter does exist, its killed off by some card in the main list. Catcher being nerfed is the worst thing to happen to the game. This means those decks that need bench sitters to function are 50 percent safer then when catcher was catcher. The game i not balanced and being diverse is very subjective. What diversity is there? We complain because its a product we pay for and would like to see it balanced. If people dont complain, things dont get fixed.

 

[yoshi1001]

There wasn't really a point in playing where I didn't think there was fairly good balance in the game, and the formats have changed pretty much with every set since I started playing. Right now with the catcher nerf and such a large card pool it seems even sillier then ever to complain about the balance of the game, because it's extremely balanced and diverse at the moment!

Balance is a matter of perspective, and depends on what aspect of the game you're looking at. From a type perspective, you could say that the current metagame is fairly well-balanced, but if you look at it from a basic/evolution perspective-it very clearly isn't. Things do seem to be improving, but there's still quite a large disparity, particularly when you look at prior generations where (I feel) there was much better parity and coexistence.

I think people just like to complain too much because they lack the creativity to truly figure things out, or think about the problems presented by the meta game on a deeper level to come up with the right deck ideas, lists, or techs.

I find this difficult to believe, but I guess it depends on what you consider creativity within the card game. Back in third generation, I came up with several deck ideas that I'm relatively certain were not thought of by the game's creators, but worked together well enough to at least be somewhat competitive and rewarding to play. In this last generation, it seems as though those types of options have been pushed far off into the distance. So far, my experiments in my custom format have proved much more fruitful.

 

[Otaku]

Charranitar, by the same standard that you enjoy what the game is now and thus our complaining is just whining... how is your response any more justified? You're whining about whining. You're putting your satisfaction above ours when you do that, creating a double standard.

You're allowed to enjoy what you enjoy, but so are we... and the Pokémon TCG is becoming less and less enjoyable and more and more frustrating. Likewise when something frustrates us, we have the same right or privilege (depends upon the venue) to voice such frustration. Your measures aren't our measures, but it isn't always subjective. Some of it really is objective. Real life isn't always simple, so if you want to know more, I'll tell you... but I know that when one confronts a wall of text it isn't fun and points tend to be lost.