Pokemon Catcher, Player Rewards Edition!

[tonenkyra]

Now now, everyone is attacking everyone and its not necessary. The article had asked if this sounds right to anyone of us that they are giving these away to the top 100 in each age division. So people weighed in, and then others felt the need to start bashing them. Not right! Now I will not quote multiple people but more or less paraphrase in my own words, so it will seem jumbled. It is not fair that they are giving these away to the top 100. I understand those people got there by going, attending, participating and all that. Kudos, as im glad they were victorious enough! But what about the others who have and couldn't make the cut?! As was stated earlier by a pokedad, he had spent so much money in travels for said events, probably on top of the money spent for his son's deck and his own. Now, with 600 more catchers printed that certainly won't help the catchers already in circulation. These particular catchers will be either kept in binders for whatever reason or sold at an extreme price as oppose to its counterparts. Why would the top 100 wanna use these fancy ones when they more than likely already have catchers in their decks. I mean, don't get me wrong some people enjoy playing with bling but why when these will be valued much, much more (trading or selling). Meaning that said catchers MAY NOT add to the current pool of catchers out there and if it does, it will not affect it by much. And again, I will say this, same deal with the Tropical Beach except there wasn't any prior prints of it. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE EXACT SITUATION AS THE TROPICAL BEACH. But hey, I agree with pretty much everyone woulda been a lot easier as a league card promo. But most leagues are just casual fun play, and then there are those that are only competitive, then there are those that are half and half. For new players or upcoming players who may want to play competitive, it sucks. So to be competitive in this current format that we are in, everyone AND I MEAN EVERYONE will have to invest in catchers (granted there are just some decks that can function absolutely fine without them and there are some that use other cards) at some point in time. And it doesn't matter how many catchers a particular person has because that in itself is not a competition. Nonetheless, it is awesome that they have a player rewards programs, its awesome that they give away cards, badges, etc. Just some of us would like things a bit more accessible at times. But all in all pokemon, is, was and always should be about fun and making friends and meeting new people!

Sidenote: Save your stupid, ignorant, retarded comments for someone who actually cares as I have tried to be just while explaining the thoughts at hand.

 

[losjackal]

Second, I don't want to make it more difficult at all. I don't see how the process I mentioned makes it more difficult for LOs and LLs. If they are already screwing it up, I don't see how it gets any worse than it is. The competent ones will do it right, as they are, and the incompetent ones will continue to mess up.

The reason your opposition gets excitable is because you're essentially saying "I don't see your side at all". Regarding me, no, it's not personal about having to keep up with data entry myself. It's about knowing there are X number of Leagues out there, reporting on Y number of players. Those players play Z number of games. So every league season, X * Y data points are handled fed into the system. You're suggesting to make it X * Y * Z, not just once every six weeks but ASAP after each league session. And leagues often have players that are still working on completing earlier cards, so the Z reportable number could be double or triple for any given player. For what result? Saving on the cost of printing and shipping the code cards? And delayed gratification for a player to get his codes?

Personally, I consider this and conclude that the change wouldn't be worthwhile, when you factor in the additional time costs and possible things that go wrong. As an example, League owners/leaders unfortunately are having enough trouble right now keeping up with the proper handling of badge cases....when they show up with the supplies, whom do they go to? It's an information problem centrally for sure. But it's a support issue, and the league league/owner is in the middle of it. Heaven forbid they have to start to get involved with support issues of "I didn't get my codes". Can you at least see how your suggestion is terribly unsatisfying for players?

"Thanks for showing up in person today, and good job playing 7 games to finish up your row. I don't have anything for you right now, but if you go online and make sure your Trainer account is linked with your POP ID, in the next couple of days I'll report to Pokémon that you finished a row and then you'll get a code to unlock free cards in the online game the next time you login to your account."

Your suggestion might certainly be something that comes true in the future, perhaps if and when P!P stops shipping any supplies for league altogether (posters and player cards). If so, I would think they build it to bypass codes completely and just have free cards waiting for you the next time you login to PTCGO. But we're replying to your suggestion that relaying more information into a central server more often creates additional work for all league owners/leaders, and requires more initial development effort and ongoing maintenance effort than it delivers in benefits.

 

[Vablakes]

IMO, it should have been Tropical Beach. It makes it so that there are more in the world, so they become a bit cheaper. There were already a bunch of Catcher circulating with only a few Beaches.

 

[funmonkey54]

I think we should shun all looks into the future because they aren't manageable now and because the suggestions are too hard.

No, I am not saying I don't see your side at all. Rather, you think that because an idea isn't immediately applicable 100% it does nothing for progress. This is ignorance hindering progress. Unfortunately, we see it everywhere.

When you said email wouldn't work, I heard that and countered immediately with online delivery. I don't think that getting the card is anymore satisfying because you can't use the code until you get online anyway. No one is getting excited about the code being on a piece of paper. They get excited when they use the code. So the satisfaction point I disagree with.

I recognize the additional chance of people messing up, but I question the impact that you think this will have. You act as though every change to the system means an equal increase in people messing up the inputs. This is not true, because the incompetent were already messing up with the first input. I believe the increase in information input will bring about a negligible change in the number of people messing up. And you can't really deny that until we see it tested or put into action. So to continue adamantly against it is sort of a moot point unless we have a small scale or real world test of such a scenario.

Unless you are saying that the system itself is the issue and that the technology cannot handle the extra inputs. If this is the case, I would suggest better human resources be put in place behind the coding and system maintenance. Or perhaps more. That is a more complex issue than I am prepared to discuss and I'll gladly admit as much. Will it stop me from having ideas and putting them into the public forum for discussion? No.

I agree that badge cases were not handled with enough forethought.

I consider the additional time costs worthwhile in the long run. I'll gladly agree to disagree on this point.

 

[losjackal]

Honestly I think we're making progress in this discussion. Let's keep going.

When you said email wouldn't work, I heard that and countered immediately with online delivery. I don't think that getting the card is anymore satisfying because you can't use the code until you get online anyway. No one is getting excited about the code being on a piece of paper. They get excited when they use the code. So the satisfaction point I disagree with.

Reliable email delivery could be an issue, and making it online delivery does remove one moving part. But in your future scenario, the player wouldn't be able to use the code until the LL/LO reported progress for the week. So email could still be partially good because it could notify the user when the code was available, versus the player guessing and logging in and being unsatisfied that the LL/LO hasn't uploaded the progress yet.

I recognize the additional chance of people messing up, but I question the impact that you think this will have. You act as though every change to the system means an equal increase in people messing up the inputs. This is not true, because the incompetent were already messing up with the first input. I believe the increase in information input will bring about a negligible change in the number of people messing up.

Alright, let's leave LL/LO's making mistakes out of it for a moment. Driftveil Gym Season reporting opened 3 days ago, so every LL/LO must:

1. Add any newly registered player ID's, names, and birthdates
2. Carry over which players showed up this league season
3. Fill in any blanks from previous seasons

Your proposal has leaders doing #1 and #2 after every league meeting rather than every season! And on top of that,

• Look at each card (for current and any previous seasons) and input progress for each player

So not only you made it more frequent, you're asking them to review and input more information. I would suspect that every league leader would rather just hand out a code card in person rather than go through this additional effort. And I would suspect that every player would rather take home a code card that they can use immediately rather than wait hours or days to have a new code available. So what is the benefit for anyone in this future?

 

[bullados]

You have the 10% who are incompetent, or who willfully do not care.

Then you have those that are either barely competent, or who are at their wit's end even with the current setup.

Your suggestion works out well enough for those of us who are competent, and who have the available time and energy to input the extra data points.

The problem is thus: at what point does it simply become too difficult to input the data?

You're asking the League Leaders to exponentially increase the amount of work that we have to perform in order to input the data correctly. That is simply not scaleable.

Honestly, the current solution isn't 100% scaleable either. But the amount of data inputs scales linearly, and it's a relatively shallow curve, and that makes it manageable. You're not just asking the entry of a single data point. You're asking for the collection of hundreds of data points, distilled into a single number for each player.

The best possible solution would be to make everything digital, including the scorecards. But that requires an initial investment of technology that TPCi is certainly not willing to make. And I doubt that most League Leaders/Owners are willing to make that investment either. Not to mention the players.

Don't just think of your local league as if that's the be-all-end-all of all Leagues. I know of a couple Leagues that are easily entering 100+ players every League season. They get about half of those showing up every week. And each of those players can easily get through 7+ matches per League session. So you're asking the LO or LL of that League to keep track of potentially 700 data points every single league session. Assuming a weekly League that takes no breaks through the year, that's 36400 data points a year. Even if we only assume half of that, that's still 18200 data points a year. That's borderline insanity for a full time paying job. It's beyond ludicrous for a volunteer position.

 

[funmonkey54]

Honestly I think we're making progress in this discussion. Let's keep going.

I'm genuinely glad you see it that way.

Reliable email delivery could be an issue, and making it online delivery does remove one moving part. But in your future scenario, the player wouldn't be able to use the code until the LL/LO reported progress for the week. So email could still be partially good because it could notify the user when the code was available, versus the player guessing and logging in and being unsatisfied that the LL/LO hasn't uploaded the progress yet.

I can see where that would be an issue.
Maybe this is disconnecting, maybe it isn't. But I'm going to clarify a little more what I meant with progress reporting.

I didn't mean they reported exactly how many stamps each person had every single time. Rather, I meant that they report when the awards are earned. So with a little drop down menu saying prizes available (Award 1, Award 2, Award 3, Award 4), the award earned could be easily reported. To make it super obvious, the little booklets can have their stamps across the top and the end of each row can say AWARD ONE, AWARD TWO, etc. for the people that are a little dim.

Also, this eliminates excess. There aren't extra codes sitting around that could have otherwise gone unprinted, and there aren't leagues running out of their codes because of growth. The system adjusts to the fluctuations in attendance. I see this as another pro to the system I am proposing that could balance out some of the work-intensive issues.

Alright, let's leave LL/LO's making mistakes out of it for a moment. Driftveil Gym Season reporting opened 3 days ago, so every LL/LO must:

1. Add any newly registered player ID's, names, and birthdates
2. Carry over which players showed up this league season
3. Fill in any blanks from previous seasons

Your proposal has leaders doing #1 and #2 after every league meeting rather than every season! And on top of that,

• Look at each card (for current and any previous seasons) and input progress for each player

So not only you made it more frequent, you're asking them to review and input more information. I would suspect that every league leader would rather just hand out a code card in person rather than go through this additional effort. And I would suspect that every player would rather take home a code card that they can use immediately rather than wait hours or days to have a new code available. So what is the benefit for anyone in this future?

I've addressed the code card per player issue above, so I'm going to separate those out as I think it is a different aspect that should be approached differently.

By making it an "as you go" type deal, you eliminate the end of the season checking altogether. People report their progress as they go. The point and click to select awards earned occurs as each award is earned. It takes more work in the long run, yes, but I don't think that the system necessarily overcomplicates it for people. I am willing to grant that it is more work than just tossing a card at someone. But I thought the whole idea of getting rid of the cards was cost in the first place. A little more work? Sure, but you save the costs of printing all of the code cards.

So I guess, if the kinks get worked out, such a system could potentially have a positive effect on the company, a neutral to positive effect on the participants (As they either don't care because the rewards are the same in both scenarios or they are receiving more accurate prizes), and a cost of only time for the people reporting for the leagues which is a tradeoff for the increased prosperity of the company, which in turn allows for more promotions, which in turn increases profitability of the product, which in turn gives store owners more reason to promote the product.

 

[losjackal]

I didn't mean they reported exactly how many stamps each person had every single time. Rather, I meant that they report when the awards are earned. So with a little drop down menu saying prizes available (Award 1, Award 2, Award 3, Award 4), the award earned could be easily reported. To make it super obvious, the little booklets can have their stamps across the top and the end of each row can say AWARD ONE, AWARD TWO, etc. for the people that are a little dim.

Yes, this is how I saw it too. And it's good that the end-of-season reporting could theoretically be eliminated. So let's say that best case scenario, it's so fluid and easy to use that it is no more difficult than end-of-season reporting now.

I think the bottom line for my opinion on this is, it would require LL/LO's to review their players every week instead of every six weeks. That is a six-fold increase in the amount of work! I'd have to see some really positive and assured benefits for me to embrace a change in this direction. Because if you're still shipping me posters and league cards, please just include the packs of code cards too so I don't have to bother with this six-fold additional effort.

 

[funmonkey54]

Yes, this is how I saw it too. And it's good that the end-of-season reporting could theoretically be eliminated. So let's say that best case scenario, it's so fluid and easy to use that it is no more difficult than end-of-season reporting now.

I think the bottom line for my opinion on this is, it would require LL/LO's to review their players every week instead of every six weeks. That is a six-fold increase in the amount of work! I'd have to see some really positive and assured benefits for me to embrace a change in this direction. Because if you're still shipping me posters and league cards, please just include the packs of code cards too so I don't have to bother with this six-fold additional effort.

Understandable. The transition would be awkward, no doubt. But I do see the potential for long-run benefits.
And there would be an increase in work. Because not every reporting is as strenuous as the end-of-season reporting, the increase would not be quite six-fold. But it would probably fall something like twice the work. And that still needs results to prove justified, which I understand.

A lot more of this would be easier and clearer to toy with theoretically if we had numbers. We don't have outright costs that are broken down to work with and analyze efficiencies. So it is all just partially-educated theory.

And thank you for making this less hostile. I really did just want to talk about it like this, which I think you can see.

 

[SD PokeMom]

if free badge cases aren't enough incentive for many players (or their parents) to activate their player accounts, virtual code cards league rewards won't do so either, imho...making the extra reporting ("the cost of only time", as you put it) the LL must do in your scenario wasted time and effort.

jmho.

 

[poke-j]

For the people that said this was a bad idea I want to know what would they wanted instead of pokemon catcher?

 

[funmonkey54]

if free badge cases aren't enough incentive for many players (or their parents) to activate their player accounts, virtual code cards league rewards won't do so either, imho...making the extra reporting ("the cost of only time", as you put it) the LL must do in your scenario wasted time and effort.

jmho.

And you are welcome to your opinion. I, however, am going to disagree.
The response between cards and pins has been noticeably different in my experience/area.
And no, as bullados so brashly tried to claim, I do not recognize my experience as the "see all end all" scenario. But I strongly doubt that we are the only ones seeing a different reaction. And I doubt even more that any one of your experiences is entirely unique as well.


Also, if the people aren't enticed by the code cards, they won't come. An no reporting will be done. So it couldn't be a wasted effort in that manner as people are not going to consistently work towards prizes to just ignore them. Once? Maybe. But beyond that is a foolish expectation.

 

[PMysterious]

For the people that said this was a bad idea I want to know what would they wanted instead of pokemon catcher?

Honestly, the way that they advertised it, you would think that people would actually 100% want it for the game, like something new. The problem with Pokemon Catcher is that it won't lower the price of the card (it may actually increase it), it is useless to players in the Top 100 (because they have Pokemon Catcher anyway), and it ends up rubbing it in the younger one's faces (Which is pretty much generic). It is one of those things that the ones that DO get it will brag about all the time and telling kids that they are not good enough to beat them, which may force them to "ride the train" to "I'm not playing this game anymore" station. I don't really like the idea of Catcher over something which everyone will want and will actually give everyone a drive to play the game competitively, thus making people play harder and more money will flow, making League Promos come back, and THEN we can get our league promo Pokemon Catchers. I know my logic isn't great, but you gotta admit that you would rather have an absolutely new card over Pokemon Catcher as a Top 100 reward.

 

[tonenkyra]

honestly, the way that they advertised it, you would think that people would actually 100% want it for the game, like something new. The problem with pokemon catcher is that it won't lower the price of the card (it may actually increase it), it is useless to players in the top 100 (because they have pokemon catcher anyway), and it ends up rubbing it in the younger one's faces (which is pretty much generic). It is one of those things that the ones that do get it will brag about all the time and telling kids that they are not good enough to beat them, which may force them to "ride the train" to "i'm not playing this game anymore" station. I don't really like the idea of catcher over something which everyone will want and will actually give everyone a drive to play the game competitively, thus making people play harder and more money will flow, making league promos come back, and then we can get our league promo pokemon catchers. I know my logic isn't great, but you gotta admit that you would rather have an absolutely new card over pokemon catcher as a top 100 reward.

agreed! This is the point that most everyone is trying to say.

 

[losjackal]

I know my logic isn't great, but you gotta admit that you would rather have an absolutely new card over Pokemon Catcher as a Top 100 reward.

But are you further implying that this new card should be unplayable?

Because if its playable, then the situation would be worse, just like when Tropical Beach debuted. Everyone will want one, and only a few hundred people will have any.

At least with Catchers, indeed the Top 100 already have them, but you're only looking at the negative outcome of a bratty player. The positive outcome is the Top 100 player says to a less fortunate player, "I just received two new Catchers from the Pokémon Company. I can trade you two of my older ones now since I don't need them."

 

[zaeden906]

Tbh I would call it unfair to not receive even a potion player reward, but this is apparently the only playable trainer? I even tested a zebstrika garbodor deck against landorus mewtwo and keldeo decks, and won the majority of the matches (when pls came out) and realized I had forgot space for catchers, sure, after adding them I had some more options but I believe some states even used ninetales, why not incorperate a strategy like that to a deck? Just because some ppl can obtain catchers doesnt mean everyone with catchers all get 1st place right? :3

 

[LV18 Slowbro]

Why is it being a card thats playable being given out for free make a difference in your own ability to get a Catcher? Its not like more catcher = harder to get. Your acting like they just tripled the price on it with its promo release.

If you really care about being seriously competitive, buy up 4 Catchers for 60 dollars (the amounts you described is incredibly inaccurate) or trade for them, its not that expensive compared to things like Beach or previous money cards. So Pokemon decks don't cost 20 dollars to be competitive, this is still one of the cheapest TCG's that you can play competitively and plus in this game you dont even pay for tournaments, so I dont see why people have to act so cheap all the time. And its not like you can't trade or sell them if you start playing and cant afford your deck, they retain value for the remainder of the format. I've personally gotten Catchers pretty cheap via. buying decks off people quitting or trading, its not like there impossible to get.

Just tell TPCi next time you want a pack of Cyndaquils instead so they dont taunt you by giving people who show up to tournaments (doesnt mean they are good just because they show up) some good cards that are already fairly obtainable.

I'm not acting cheap, nor is it hard for ME to get catchers, I have a playset for me and my girlfriend. I'm not even acting cheap either. I want everyone to be on the same playing field. If entry level players had catchers then we'd have more players in general. $80 is still a lot, especially for younger players who this game is aimed towards. I'm not mad because they gave Catchers out, I'm mad because they gave them to the people who had the money to go to as many tournaments as possible. Tournaments may be free, but gas is not. I'm mad because they gave them to players who already had them. I'm mad because if you come into the format right now it'd be the hardest time for you at tournaments and you can't say I'm lying. Try going to a tournament without Catchers. Brutal. If everyone had them then games would be fair and games wouldn't be so one sided.




I don't have a problem with the free cards they give, I don't even get them. I have my cards. TCPi needs to make things fair for new players. Why give them away? Players should buy them or trade for them. If they are going to give them away then give some to everyone.

 

[slowdawn]

Basically all the complaints here boil down to

"TCPI gave me one scoop of free ice cream but I want ten free"

Very true. If they give you something that is hard to get in the first place why complain about it?

 

[Phadrex]

If you go to tournaments already, you have catchers.. so this shouldn't bother you.

If you don't go to tournaments.. then this shouldn't bother you, as you don't care that much about competitive battling and should have no problem going to a proxy site and printing them and use them in local games/leagues where it doesn't matter.

 

[Swordfish1989]

I've read a few comments about younger players not being able to get Catchers, and from experience... it's their own fault. Why? Because I see these little kids with amazing Exs (Deoxys, Thundurus, etc), but when I offer to trade them Catchers for their decks, they say no. To them, Catchers are 1) trainers, which are not as cool as Pokemon and 2) not foil/ultra rare. The parents (if they play) are a different story, but the little kids could care less. They would much rather trade their Deoxys ex for a Promo Reshiram and Zekrom ex, since they see themselves getting 2 exs vs 1, then trading for 3-4 Catchers.

That's my experience, anyway. The only players I've been able to trade Catchers to have been at least 13 years old. I don't often see people at my league complaining about lack of Catchers either.. but maybe that's because I'm the Oprah of Catchers at my league lol. "And you get traded a Catcher, and YOU get traded a Catcher! Everyone gets a Catcher!!"