POP Policy Change Regarding Foreign-Language Cards

[Rainbowgym]

Since the start of this game, many people had to play with cards NOT in their local language.
Many years judges/players had to deal with cards in several languages due to cross border players in Europe.
Never this was an issue as long as they had an English reference card, because those are the easiest ones to use as reference for most Europeans.

In all those years I never heard anybody complain about it around here, so what changed?
Players are misusing foreign language cards? Were? I don't think that is happening overhere.
Cheating/gaining advantage is happening in whatever game you can think off, it's a matter of wrong attitude by a few.

In a few weeks I have to run a Battle Road, I have to pay for the venue and hope enough people will show up (paying a $6 entreefee) to break even on the $100 venue rental. I will receive no compensation at all, no judge support, nothing. The boosters and Pika promo for the #1 and 2 are providid bij the LD but on top of that each player should be given a booster for attending, which we have to buy from the distributor (at least with some discount)
Due to traveling foreigners from Belgium/Germany/France it sometimes is possible to break even with 30 players. And if you have 35 players there is some money to pay your judge a travel compensation.
At the end of the day I will have pain in my legs, be tired but most times satisfied if everybody had a good time.
During such tournament we have to deal with cards in English/German/French/Japanese or even Italian.
NONE of them being my and my judge own language, still we can run a good tournament.
All players know they have to provide an English reference and if not they can't play the "foreign" language cards.
Is there a problem? Not really unless you take into account I will have to put my own money into it if those players stay away due to the new "you cannot use foreign language cards with English reference" anymore.

Why is the way we have to work suddenly to complicated? It has never been for us and it will not.
And I think this is valid for a lot of TO's/judges in non-english speaking countries with traveling players.
So who is having a problem? Who is not able to do things we are doing for ages without problems.

On top of that this new ruling makes the boosters/card we won in Germany/France trash. We can't use them when we get home. Funny to win a prize such as official TCG boosters at an official TCG tournament but you cannot use them at official tournament unless you travel to the country you won theml.

I really think the ruling on foreign cards could be adjusted. But most of all the rarity of the boosters should be better. Main problem is caused due to the real bad deal with the local language boosters.
That's something what really needs a fix. A holo in each booster will even give better sales, kids love holo's. A little more LV X a box also doesn't hurt sales.

I think all outside Japan released Pokemon card should be legal for use outside Japan.
If you travel to a country which doesn't use the cards of the language yours are, you need to provide an English (or that countries local language) reference card. (I really don't like the cardex).
That way people from Italy can play in Germany, The French can come to the Netherlands etc.
This is in best interested of the game. Japan is not a country covered by POP/PUI so those cards should not be used. But to ban by PUI released/authorized/official cards from outside Japan is insane.

This sollution is much more friendly to all people who have invested money in official PUI released cards. It still is hard for those who bought cheaper/nicer/better quality Japanese cards.
I serious don't agree with the Europeans being punished because others cannot deal with multi language tournaments.

Li@

 

[Ditto]

Ditto, now that Mike Liesik has told you that there are more situations than we know of, is that good enough for you?

Ditto, judging is all about opinions of situations. Several penalties in the guidelines state that if the judge believes a significant advantage is gained by a player, to elevate the penalty. This would be the HJ's opinion.

Letter of the law vs intent of the law comes down to opinion. The "it is the opinion of the court" line that SteveP quoted from courts, well, even in the court system, the rulings are known as opinions: Majority opinion, Concurrent opinion, and Dissenting opinion. Card interactions are more like "rulings," but situations about how to fix a game error and interpretation of the rules are really opinions. Vince Krekeler has the opinion that the shuffle fix is appropriate, other judges do not have that opinion.

Anyone can recite rules from a rules document or the compendium. It is when you get stuck in a ruling which requires you to interpret the intent of the rule and use/test your opinion that you have truly been challenged as a judge.

People said the "why are we discussing this, has it ever actually happened?" line for the "never ending game and its subsequent never ending sudden deaths." When it comes to situations, it is best to discuss potential problems before they happened, even if they have never happened. The jduges involved in the "do you know what this card does?" situation would have probably loved to have discussed that prior to the event, eventhough such an act of unsporting conduct had never happened before.
Think of the huge time delay that would have occurred at a tournament should you and I had to present our opinions to a HJ who is indifferent without having already figured out our positions?
Said never ending game had happened, it was just not widely reported. Same with this: enough delays caused by foreign language cards finally accumulated to break the camel's back, we just only heard about them from SteveP mainly.

Ditto, maybe you were a saint when it came to playing a deck with a large quantity of Japanese cards. Maybe you knew how to be responsible in your excess use. But clearly others were not. Clearly the rule as it is was never meant to accomidate such a large quantity of foreign language cards in one deck, but only SteveP saw that and we failed to listen to him and follow his and NoPoke's advice to moderate when he warned us a year ago.

I can't play my French Rare Candy or Japanese Energy Pickup after September. I sometimes trade my English Rare Candy and Energy Pickup to league players who needed it because I knew I had by back-up foreign language copies and it was difficult for the leaguers to acquire the Rare Candy from other leaguers. I can't do that anymore. Sucks to be a league player trying to get the cards now. Even though available in POP8, they are still hard to get for some reason.


His brother has a habit of losing his translations, which I typically end up picking up :wink: . In hindsight, I should be cautioning him for leaving trash at the tables

I'm not sure I fully understand your initial question.

If the question is, "Are the reasons Mike gave good reasons to ban Japanese cards?" then my answer would be no, the reasons are not.

If the question is, "Do I (Ditto) see what Mike and the guys are trying to accomplish?" then my answer would be yes, I understand where they are coming from.

Mike's reasons still do not give any blame to Japanese cards themselves, rather to the players not following the rules. So are Japanese cards bad or a problem? No, they are not.

But I understand how Mike and the gang are trying to get around the real problem of players not following the rules by removing an option from them.

Will this stop the problems caused by players not following the Japanese card rules? Yes. Is there a better way to handle players not following the Japanese card rules rather than banning Japanese cards? IMHO, yes.

I believe in solving problems in the direct way. Find the root of the problem, and fix it. There are often times where problems can be solved by making some other change to the system as a whole. This change may or may not affect multiple other things besides the intended original problem. Sometimes that is acceptable to the ones doing the fixing, sometimes it is not.

Obviously, the people making the decision to ban Japanese cards feel that the other areas that this affects negatively are worth the positive gain obtained by fixing the original problem.

My argument has never actually beeen directly against fixing the problems that have come up. My argument has always been that Japanese cards do not cause the problems that are trying to be fixed, and that there are better ways to fix the problems, rather than just banning Japanese cards.

Opinions do come into play when judging, yes, but in the case of Japanese cards themselves, there is no room for opinion. It's a clear checklist. Just like the type of deck a person is playing is just a checklist. You don't have to think the player is playing the best deck to let them play, you just have to make sure they have 60 cards and everything is legal. Just because you don't like Japanese cards, doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them.

I would like to think I was a saint when playing Japanese cards. And since I know it's doable, there is really no excuse for every other player using Japanese cards to be a saint too. People need to take responsibility for their actions and stop placing the blame on other things like Japanese cards.

 

[NoPoke]

Lia, ref http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1378875&postcount=843 I wont quote the whole thing as I agree with you.

I run BRs at a loss too, though it is my choice to hand out prizes to everyone who attends. I am not forced or required to by the LD or local OP. I'm surprised that you are. 35 players would be a good number for me too, but so far I've always been a few short.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Well it's the arrangement overhere, which I actually support. More card will rotate that way.
However paying for each tournament (never having a free one unles we go to Germany) is not really bringing young kids into the game.
Not my decission.

I would be happy to get 24 at a BR, I already know I will loose on it.
We have to order and pay those "playerboosters"in advange and if only 20 people show up we are going to get another bill to pay back the discount we got on the remaining 4 boosters.
OMG heaven forbid that a TO who did spend a day promoting the game would have 4 cheaper than normal boosters.

 

[Volt]

This year, I won 105 booster packs in german and sold them for 200€ - cause you can play them everywhere, although you need a reference (outside of Germany).
Next year, I'll win booster packs as well, but can't sell them outside of Germany - cause never can use them.

 

[DptyMewtwo]

again, I agree with you Ditto and your views and opinions. Unfortunately, the easiest way to fix a problem of players not following rules with foreign cards is to take away the foreign card factor. It is easier to take away the main factor in players by removing the one thing they all have in common (the cards). I know there are other ways to handle it and I would like to see those ways handled, but giving each person a penalty for not following the rule (when multiple are not following the rule) is more trouble than just taking away the cards. I just hope POP does look at a softer way with this foreign card policy.

 

[Kasparovsky]

I think like you Rainbowgym.

A Pokemon TCG season also means go to neighbor countries and have fun with them even without speaking the same language. I naver had any problem by playing some japanese cards against Dutch, Danes, French, Italian or German players. Most of people knows the cards that I have in japanese (Uxie, Machamp, etc..) and if they don't know they usually don't ask the ref. but simply ask me to explain the card !

I play about 8-10 japanese cards in my deck all the season, and only in 2,3 of all of my games I had to pull at least 1 time the cardex ref. and in all this matchs we finished before the time out, so ...

 

[toxictaipan]

Here's my $.02:

1. Banning foreign cards is ridiculous. I think it makes things diverse and possibly promotes learning other languages.

2. Yes, Japanese boxes have a higher ratio of better cards, and have way better quality. I couldn't believe how I paid $20 less for a Japanese box as opposed to an english box, and I pulled so many better cards. I can't tell you how sick I am of purchasing a Platinum box and seeing 0 Blastoise, 1 Toxicroak (if that), and 1 Dialga G in 1 box. My PotF box made me feel better about Pokemon.

3. If things keep going like this where the politics seem to overshadow the "fun" game itself, I will just end my Pokemon relationship. Especially when I purcahse boxes of Japanese cards and 1 week later find out when it comes out in english, they will be illegal to use in Tourneys.

Sorry for ranting, I'm just sad over the ruling. Maybe we can make it illegal for Juniors/Seniors to use foreign cards? Since 60% of tourneys are Masters and can understand cards better...who knows. Hope they change the ruling.

Age discrimination is not cool, dude. I am just as competant when it comes to reading Pokemon cards as any Master player.

NONE of us can play Japanese cards. As stated many times in this thread, nothing we say or do will change it, even if it is a bunch of BS. It's time to get over it, and start getting all the good English cards at league before they're all snatched up.

 

[TRQLKZ]

The HJ's decision is final, so yes, they could limit the cards. Not saying it is fair, but it os allowable.

So couldn't a head judge also decide that using foreign language cards is allowed if their decision is final?

Not that I support Judges going against POP decisions.

 

[Jaeger]

Nope, there is a chain of command,

POP>HJ>Players, Pop gives an order, the HJ follows it. The HJ gives an order we follow it.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Age discrimination is not cool, dude. I am just as competant when it comes to reading Pokemon cards as any Master player.

I don't agree with having seperate rules for Junior/Senior players but the idea is that on a whole Masters have an easier time dealing with translations than Junior or Senior players. As for as age discrimination, it might not be "cool" but one could argue that age discrimination is the reason for 3 different age divisions.

 

[GregWebster]

So couldn't a head judge also decide that using foreign language cards is allowed if their decision is final?

Not that I support Judges going against POP decisions.

This is in response to a league, where it is up to the League Leader. At premiere events a judge can't choose to ignore this.

 

[ShadowCard]

I'm not sure I fully understand your initial question.

I actually meant that now that Mike Liesik has told you that there are complaints, many of them being not publically announced on places Pokegym, but are instead sent to their inboxes, is that good enough for you that foreign language cards have been the source of probalems at tournaments? (without attempting to play with my words in a "guns don't hurt people, people with guns hurt people" kind of way ).

As said before by others, this rule was not meant to allow a 90% japanese card deck or any other amount of excess use (read: intent of the rule vs letter of the rule). In Mike Liesik's post, he says this:

There are reports all over these forums, the PTO forums, POP's inboxes, etc. about players who fail to provide reference text, have the wrong reference text, scramble to find reference text mid-game, or have binders of reference text. These types of errors lead to frustration for players, judges and organizers.

Bolded for emphasis.
So, it is not just players who aren't responsible with playing a lot of JPN cards, it is players who play so many that they need a binder for all the references.

Opinions do come into play when judging, yes, but in the case of Japanese cards themselves, there is no room for opinion. It's a clear checklist. Just like the type of deck a person is playing is just a checklist. You don't have to think the player is playing the best deck to let them play, you just have to make sure they have 60 cards and everything is legal.

This actually explains to me a lot of why you are thinking the way you are. Your interpretation of the rule (that is, you injecting your opinion into the rule) on the use of foreign language cards that it is like a checklist comparable to the rules of building a deck is a very good example :thumb:. I like it.

However, this is the part that you keep having problems with:

If a judge determines that a player is using non-local language cards and/or misprinted cards to gain an advantage, that player will be subject to the Cheating section of the POP Penalty Guidelines.​

Consider this part of the checklist. It's that "the teacher has the right to disallow a student's idea for a his/her quarter project." You may have followed all the guidelines/"checklist" that were required to before submitting your idea to the teacher, but the teacher can still say you can't do it, or place restrictions/requirements onto your idea.

This is the part of the section that allows the judge to say "hey, I know you're responsible when it comes to playing these foreign language cards, but I cannot allow the concentration of this many in one deck because of the potential to disrupt the tournament."
I understand your response of "I haven't caused a problem yet and you don't even know a problem will happen, why are you punishing me when I've never caused a disruption?" In a way, I understand that that is not fair to you. You followed what you interpret to be a checklist that allows you to play the foreign language cards and it made no mention to limits (even if you forgot to read up on the HJ disallowing it based on advantage). However, Tournament Organizers will not do not enjoy such disruptions. They have time constraints to abide by and they'd rather not wait and see if a problem is caused because when a problem does happen it will hold up the event. Why risk that when you could simply prevent it?
Keep in mind, it may not be just you playing foreign language cards. You, one person, may never be the reason for a delay. Maybe once is allowable though, considering a spotless record, right? However, what about everyone else? If each player is forgiven for one delay because even the most responsible people mess up at some time, and instead of all those delays happening at the same time, what happens if each person has his/her delay of game in different rounds. That adds a lot of time to the event.

At the moment though, rest in knowing that a judge should not be outright banning Japanese cards. The judge will need to look at your cards and then say "you can't use these because...". If that reason is justified (read: doesn't mean that YOU think it is justified, just that it is justified within reason), then you'll need to plead your case for an exception. This is where that "why" comes in that I have been trying to tell you is so important. I'm sure no judge will take pleasure in telling you that you can't use particular Japanese cards. They will be reasonable about it but they will be expecting you to meet them half way. The decision will most likely also be based on event size and time constraints.

Now, Ditto, I'm hoping you like my explaination that an individual HJ can allow/disallow particular foreign language cards because when the HJ is doing this, he/she has the ability to focus on those people who have not been responsible when it comes to using them. This is what you've been suggesting: go after the people who are ruining it for those who are doing it responsibly, right?

However, removing this power from the HJ and putting a blanket ban on the cards leads me to think that a factor in the decision is the excess use that SteveP, Lawman, and NoPoke are talking about. Mike Liesik's post, from which I quoted earlier in this post, is further evidence of that.

Mike Liesik doesn't lie to us (that was a previous regime ) so eventhough we haven't heard much about these situations that have ended up in POP's inbox, there must have been enough complaints to change the policy.

Looking back on SteveP's thread a year ago, it looks like he got bruised pretty badly for the idea. The rule ended up being interpretted as giving a right to the players to play the cards unquestionably and the judges did not use their abilities to enforce moderation. I recon a judge would feel pretty powerless in enforcement of such a judgment eventhough the tourament rules give the judge that power. So, POP took care of that for the judges.

 

[toxictaipan]

Nope, there is a chain of command,

POP>HJ>Players, Pop gives an order, the HJ follows it. The HJ gives an order we follow it.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:



I don't agree with having seperate rules for Junior/Senior players but the idea is that on a whole Masters have an easier time dealing with translations than Junior or Senior players. As for as age discrimination, it might not be "cool" but one could argue that age discrimination is the reason for 3 different age divisions.

Well, one could also argue that a bunch of 10 year olds could take on Jason K. at worlds this year. Even though all the masters have trouble with it, the juniors could handle him.

People don't give enough credit to younger kids. I understand the younger juniors have a hard enough time just reading the cards period, much less Japanese ones, but I've never met an older/more experienced junior or a senior who had trouble with a Card-Dex entry or local language card. There is no difference in reading what the card does from an actual card to a card dex entry. If you can read one, you can read the other.

He was just trying to pass off any semi-viable excuse so he could continue playing with Japanese cards.

 

[PokemanMaster]

I think we will see many people start quitting just because they bought a JPN version of a card that they didn't have.

EXAMPLE:

Uxie Lv.X ENG-$30

Uxie Lv.X JPN-$15

Some people won't be able to afford the cards that are about to come out in English, especially the ones in Rising Rivals. The card will seem appealing to some , but to others, "it's qutting time."

 

[homeofmew]

I have another thought; why ban basic energies?
i guess it makes scene in a way though ban 1 ban all.
But still. You get 1 Energy a Pack in Japanese packs (Basic)

 

[SteveP]

I have another thought; why ban basic energies?
i guess it makes scene in a way though ban 1 ban all.
But still. You get 1 Energy a Pack in Japanese packs (Basic)

My suggestion exactly. If you look at a Japanese basic energy, you'll see the English word, "Energy"

However, it's different for the Euro energies, I think.

 

[Chari Zard]

i dont care because i cant afford boxes and i cant read japanese
english cards are cool
i do, however, think it helps you with world languages
sometimes japanese cards are cool so its a double edged sword.
it doesnt affect me but i dont think they should ban them from tourney play

 

[Rainbowgym]

I wonder how much of the growth of the game is thanks to those affordable and easier available Japanese Holo's/Lv X cards.
Perhaps there is a synergy between the massive use of Japanese cards and players joining organized play.

 

[SteveP]

I wonder how much of the growth of the game is thanks to those affordable and easier available Japanese Holo's/Lv X cards.
Perhaps there is a synergy between the massive use of Japanese cards and players joining organized play.

That doesn't make sense Lia. Think about it. You're just starting to learn how to play. You're probably NOT going to go out and buy cards you can't read.

Of all those I know who buy lots of Japanese cards, all are seasoned players and/or collectors.

No younger/newer players want to trade for my Japanese cards at league. Only the seasoned players even consider.

IMO, there's no synergy whatsoever between new player growth and the use of Japanese cards.

Rather, I think it has become a "cool" fad to use them in mass quantities.

 

[gengar77]

I have another thought; why ban basic energies?
i guess it makes scene in a way though ban 1 ban all.
But still. You get 1 Energy a Pack in Japanese packs (Basic)

now everyone will have to buy pre-constructed deck just to obtain some basic energy esp those almost impossible to find basic darkness n basic metal.

already u see the price of english cards shooting up on ebay and bear in mind the ban havent even take place yet.just imagine what will happen come sept 2009

its kinda obvious they want make more money and looking at how things are gonna go they're gonna be laughing all their way to the bank.