Potential for a bigger, more legitimate game? (Part 2 finally done!)

[Haunter_FanBoy]

Everybody whining about the pricing af the cards. you can build decks for around 100(min)/300(max) dollar and i don't really see a problem with that. i mean a Ps3 is already 300$ lol, let alone the games you buy for it. it's really not a problem unless you a terribly poor. and even then you can manage if you have great friends.

 

[SmeargleMe]

I like the idea of trying a 40-card deck format with 4 prizes to speed up tournaments. However, I worry the player base of our game isn't large enough for that to be successful. Alternate formats are never as popular as the standard format because newer players are confused & intimidated by them. If PTCGO grows the game (as we all hope it does), these ideas might be more practical. PTCGO can serve as great testing grounds for new formats, too!

Great idea as a way to shorten tournaments. In fact why not go with a 30 card deck to match Japan? Trainer kits are already 2 half decks so there's been some mass exposure there versus 40 card decks which are only seen at pre-releases. In theory, this would also reduce (but not halve) the cost of decks, as less cards are required (smaller # of attackers, techs, staples). And perhaps then we can get some of the Japanese battle decks unmodified. So the big question would PTCGO go for it since people may think less cards for a deck = less boosters being bought, even if we're the minority in terms of cards purchased.

Everybody whining about the pricing af the cards. you can build decks for around 100(min)/300(max) dollar and i don't really see a problem with that. i mean a Ps3 is already 300$ lol, let alone the games you buy for it. it's really not a problem unless you a terribly poor. and even then you can manage if you have great friends.

A $100 is a lot for a junior. Without additional support from the parents or dedicating most of their Xmas/birthday/allowance money to buying cards, most younger juniors aren't coming up with that money. In addition, with the poor economy and people losing jobs, a lot of recreational purchases are being reduced if not cut for all age groups. And that's not a one time cost either. After the original investment, they have to keep current with the meta by buying the new "staples" like Catcher, etc... that come with each new set if they want to stay competitive. And guess what happens to the cost if there's more than one child playing.

 

[Raen]

Great idea as a way to shorten tournaments. In fact why not go with a 30 card deck to match Japan? Trainer kits are already 2 half decks so there's been some mass exposure there versus 40 card decks which are only seen at pre-releases. In theory, this would also reduce (but not halve) the cost of decks, as less cards are required (smaller # of attackers, techs, staples). And perhaps then we can get some of the Japanese battle decks unmodified. So the big question would PTCGO go for it since people may think less cards for a deck = less boosters being bought, even if we're the minority in terms of cards purchased.

Actually, interestingly enough, Japan does not use 30 card decks as often as we used to think, apparently only Juniors do. I recommend reading Esa's very interesting blog here for more info on that:
http://thedeckout.blogspot.com/2011/10/eye-on-japan-part-1.html

 

[Pikabruce]

I think there should be a "poverty wing" of tournaments, where new players can get immersed in the Pokemon tournament experience without having to choose between spending a lot of money making a tournament-worthy deck or losing horribly. Perhaps this:

In addition to the usual 3 tournament wings (junior, senior, master) an additional wing would be added. That poverty wing would not be sanctioned, and would have reduced prize support. For the Poverty wing tournament, all participants must play one of the four last-released World Championship decks, with no card substitutions allowed. So players could either stay in the poverty wing forever (where their only card cost is one World Championship deck per year), or they could decide to eventually take the plunge and move up to the sanctioned tournament.

 

[vaporeon]

I think there should be a "poverty wing" of tournaments, where new players can get immersed in the Pokemon tournament experience without having to choose between spending a lot of money making a tournament-worthy deck or losing horribly. Perhaps this:

In addition to the usual 3 tournament wings (junior, senior, master) an additional wing would be added. That poverty wing would not be sanctioned, and would have reduced prize support. For the Poverty wing tournament, all participants must play one of the four last-released World Championship decks, with no card substitutions allowed. So players could either stay in the poverty wing forever (where their only card cost is one World Championship deck per year), or they could decide to eventually take the plunge and move up to the sanctioned tournament.

I like this idea. It's normally hard for new players to join a game and this allows them to get their feet wet to see what the game is really about.

 

[ogremarauder]

I do not think the idea of a "poverty wing" should encompass the W/c decks. They tend to be very advanced strategy decks with card combinations that can be too much for many noobs. Maybe a starter deck wing? Many tcgs offer this type of tourney at the prerelease level, we could do this at smaller tournaments like brs/cities. As prizes for this event, how about copies of meta t/s/s as a participant prize with prime type cards offered as 1st /2nd place?

 

[ajwalker]

I think there should be a "poverty wing" of tournaments, where new players can get immersed in the Pokemon tournament experience without having to choose between spending a lot of money making a tournament-worthy deck or losing horribly. Perhaps this:

In addition to the usual 3 tournament wings (junior, senior, master) an additional wing would be added. That poverty wing would not be sanctioned, and would have reduced prize support. For the Poverty wing tournament, all participants must play one of the four last-released World Championship decks, with no card substitutions allowed. So players could either stay in the poverty wing forever (where their only card cost is one World Championship deck per year), or they could decide to eventually take the plunge and move up to the sanctioned tournament.

"Poverty Wing?" Seriously?

Not only is it a horrendous choice of a title, we already have this system in League's called Unlimited format. Any League can choose to have an unsanctioned Unlimited tournament for left over League give aways or have the players throw in a few dollars into a pot for prize support.

Also, I hear there are a variety of side games that could happen alongside the official tournaments at Worlds/Nationals and at a variety of Comic book conventions around the country. The ComicCon's aren't sanctioned and it gives players a chance to compete for pretty cool prizes.

TCPi could expand non sanctioned tournaments down to Regionals and let the local league be the official host. It gives the local league more exposure to recruit as well.

There are other ways to expose players to a higher level of competitive play than a "poverty wing.":nonono:

 

[Pokeplayer101]

Did they ever ban rare candy?

That make people rage quit in a heart beat.

nothing legit about any deck with those in them, and almost every deck had 4 of them in it.

They have never banned a rare candy.

 

[Tash]

I do not think the idea of a "poverty wing" should encompass the W/c decks. They tend to be very advanced strategy decks with card combinations that can be too much for many noobs. Maybe a starter deck wing? Many tcgs offer this type of tourney at the prerelease level, we could do this at smaller tournaments like brs/cities. As prizes for this event, how about copies of meta t/s/s as a participant prize with prime type cards offered as 1st /2nd place?

We have them in my area pretty often, and in my experience, starter deck tournaments work best when the decks are reduced to 40 card decks. That way, it lets players remove the excess baggage. (the EP decks are virtually unplayable otherwise, because they have SO MANY EVOLUTIONS)

 

[Pikabruce]

"Poverty Wing?" Seriously?

Not only is it a horrendous choice of a title....

Obviously "Poverty Wing" is a concept title (a way for players to cheaply participate in good tournaments) and the real title would be something like World Championship Rewind.

 

[ogremarauder]

We have them in my area pretty often, and in my experience, starter deck tournaments work best when the decks are reduced to 40 card decks. That way, it lets players remove the excess baggage. (the EP decks are virtually unplayable otherwise, because they have SO MANY EVOLUTIONS)

^ This could expose the game to new players AND parents. Parents respond to cost effective forms of entertainment/competition for their kids.

I think that a point needs to be stressed here. PARENTS should be the target for tournament growth ,CHILDREN should and have always been; the target for card sales. The cards are selling like always. What is changing is the amount of jrs/srs attending tournaments. Convince parents this is a worthwhile venture, and the game will grow in all divisions.

Lastly ,seperate the Advertisement budget from the Organized Play budget and the tournament structure should gain some credibility to the company. I feel sometimes as if Pokemon International doesn't give a darn about tournament success. We need to figure out how to change this(if possible) as well.

 

[ajwalker]

Obviously "Poverty Wing" is a concept title (a way for players to cheaply participate in good tournaments) and the real title would be something like World Championship Rewind.

How was I supposed to know that was a "concept title"?

How about "Unlimited," "Open" or "Expanded" play area?

Those are three off the top of my head that aren't called "poverty wing."

Mind reading isn't part of my skill set :lol:

 

[Crinus]

#4 - Establishing a connection between us and Japan

Is such an important point.

I dislike how TPCi transforms Japanese products into different non-Japanese products. They take Japanese theme decks that actually come with rare cards, that actually come with decent trainers and supporters, and tear them apart to make new decks without those rare cards and with a slew of common lackbuster trainers.

Let's look at the latest 'Battle Enhanced Decks' in Japan.



Right off the bat, I noticed cards like Pokemon Catcher and Double Colorless Energy, that are HUGE metagame staples, ironically enough, not seen in TPCi theme decks. There are 4 Ultra Ball (junk arm for pokemon from the deck) and 4 Random Receiver (supporter search), 4 Professor Juniper and 4 Cheren. That's some search, and plenty of draw.

Let's compare it to the newest TPCi theme decks from Emerging Powers.



Almost every theme deck TPCi releases comes with similar cards like Energy Search, Potion, Switch, Full Heal, or Energy Switch. These cards aren't bad per say, but play a smaller part to the functioning of a healthy deck compared to the need of good supporters and search/recovery trainers.

Also notice that Japan's theme deck came with twice as many trainers/supporters. They understand the importance of them.

I help new players build decks at my local Pokemon League and the #1 issue I see is they all have a ton of Pokemon and Energy and rarely have any trainers/supporters.

This is one reason why that happens.

In conclusion, TPCi takes structure decks from Japan, pulls out the Super Rares, pulls out half of the trainers, throws in more Pokemon.

To at least provide a fair perspective, the theme deck in Japan costs $21 (converted to USD). It's roughly $8 more than the theme decks TPCi releases, so perhaps they can afford to fit in better cards.

Also, TPCi has done an outstanding job in improving the evolution lines in their theme decks.

Compare:



to:



Great improvement from Diamond & Pearl to Black & White.

hasnt that went on since like........the beginning of the game with theme decks?

 

[ajwalker]

hasnt that went on since like........the beginning of the game with theme decks?

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I have never understood why there are different theme decks. A theme deck should be a theme deck should be a theme deck.

IF we even get the Zekrom Reshiram Battle EX theme decks, it will sadly probably not even be close to what they received.

 

[Crinus]

Well they got cards we dont for starters.

but I never understood it either.

 

[ajwalker]

:thumb:

Just watched your video again and I think the biggest issue would be trying to affect some real dialogue between Japan and players in the rest of the world.

In a separate thread, I posted this which, I think, would really help:

But the real problem is we don't know because they don't engage in meaningful conversations with the players in the rest of the world that love the game.

We may never know why decision X was made except perhaps by supposition, rumor or our best theory. Worlds would have been a great time to have a "general player meeting" or some kind of statement from the higher ups. Like a "State of the Game" address/statement: this is where we are, this is where we are heading sort of thing. You know, rally the troops, give some sneak peaks, "leak" some info.

A lot of Comic Cons just wrapped and they all had forums where you could hear from the horses mouth and engage in dialogue with creators/decision makers. How awesome would that be for Pokemon players in the rest of the world?

There are all kinds of forum models to point to in other industries: video games do this a lot. Blizzard (makers of World of Warcraft) have their own convention! Maybe you could argue Pokemon isn't that big, but everyone who is able is at Worlds. Why couldn't Worlds be, in addition to naming a champion, our once a year convention since we all be there anyway (or a lot of us anyway)? It wouldn't cost anything since the head honchos are already there!:thumb:

 

[Nick15]

Just a quick word before I go all out in a classic essay post:

I have always felt that the heads in Japan have no clue as to what they're doing, ever since the beginning. Wizards--who's handling of this game is something I felt was HINDERED by Japan's "executive meddling"--knew this and tried the best to rectify this. And even after Wizards was booted and replaced with a more closely related company, TPCI, Japan apparently does not give them much leeway to do much with the game.... aside from stuff like designing the Preconstructed decks differently, but I think that's just more because it's "tradition" (that is, players EXPECT it to be that way and are AGAINST any major departure from their expectations) than anything else.

(NOTE: The way how preconstructed decks are designed have been this way since the beginning; the US/Western precon deck design is based on how Wizards--then and now--design their Magic precon decks; specifically, no one would buy packs if 4 of every card they needed was in the precon deck... or at least, not as much as they "should".)

My list of gripes with how this game is run is long, and I also feel that many (if not all) of the solutions do NOT require significant changes to the game itself, but simply how it's run. In fact, I've been considerably tempted to design my own fake card set in order to prove and share with people what I feel my changes would do to the game and how I feel that they are ideas that WILL work to "sharpen up" the game. But I'll share them, as well as provide a more significant reply to this discussion, at another time.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

(NOTE: The way how preconstructed decks are designed have been this way since the beginning; the US/Western precon deck design is based on how Wizards--then and now--design their Magic precon decks; specifically, no one would buy packs if 4 of every card they needed was in the precon deck... or at least, not as much as they "should".)

Pre-constructed decks always have been that way it's true, but at least recently they've been upgraded, now with 5 Rares instead of the 1 Rare you'd get back just a few years ago.

Japan's managment has always been double-edged IMO they've done some interesting things, and I have always liked some of the ways they keep the game alive and don't bombard us with significant changes, but at the same time they make some sets without any inclination to see what others are doing. For instance back in 2009 the 2010 format was released and it was stated that 4 sets would be rotated a year...but there was a problem. When Black and White came out, and Japan made the move to HGSS-on it doomed the previous hopes for a consistent rotation, and the format suffered from the Trainer rules. While these movements were foreshadowed by the renaming of Trainers into Items in Japan in HGSS it still hurt the game to an extent.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

I think that you can legitimately talk about issues with Japan when it comes to game rules, specific cards, and the like. But I also feel that Prime was spot on. One of the largest issues internationally is that our sets and product are not packaged or marketed like they are in Japan. If they gave us the same sets, packaged the same way, with the same theme decks, the game would be much easier for new folks to pick up … and I suspect that it would actually sell better than it does now too.

 

[RB Golbat]

One of the reasons I like Magic: The Gathering is that they publish many articles on their sites each week, from tournament reports, to underrated cards, to how the cards were made, as a set and in regard to flavour. It shows the care the developers put into making the game, and is something that I would like to see more in Pokemon.

Edit: Link to Magic Columns