Pre-XVII Werewolf Metagame Analysis

[PMysterious]

SS7: What I meant to say was AT did the right thing and limited it all together making it a dangerous option for everyone. I didn't mean to say that it should be banned. (Which it doesn't)

 

[King Piplup]

It's a good idea in theory, but then *everyone* who signs up would have to have a new username and the signups would have to be hidden information so you can't match posts from previous games to said good players.

However, I do have a problem with your section on vet reverence.

Metagaming is there, it's probably always going to be there. If a player is known to be good, they're probably not going to be lynched D1 without good reason (bad play IS a good reason, btw). I personally don't care what ideas come from who, they all can be good or bad. The idea with "vets", though, is that they produce more good ideas than the new players. This isn't always the case, I know this. But look at D1 for the last WW game. Diaz was a lynch target, as was PMysterious. Diaz's bad play was lying about a speech impediment, which he came clean about. PMysterious just had bad play (sorry, but it's true).

Dave got lynched because he had, quite frankly, a rather unfortunate role to get stuck with for revealing, as well as some bad play. But it wasn't vet reverence that got him lynched.

I agree, there is some vet reverence that goes on, but most of it is because those players are good. The "vets" have not only played well in past games, but they continue to play well in the present games. I don't believe holes in their gameplay will be let go, it almost got Diaz lynched late game. The only reason he survived is because a Seer cleared him.

No, while there may be some vet reverence, the vets do emerge as leaders because they're strong players. Because they may be playing better than the new players (MAY be, not always). Because they're bringing logical arguments to the table.

TL;DR version.

Because the seasoned players are good, the newer players tend to follow them. And because the vets present logical arguments, as long as those arguments make sense, they can lead the town. Should the town not lynch the most logical candidate? Ignoring what a vet says simply because he is a vet is gamethrowing, imo. Nobody should be ignored, but for the entire town to ignore the arguments and leads that a vet provides wouldn't work. The only solutions are completely anonymous games with a hidden player list (which still wouldn't work all too well), or the new players don't do stupid things.:tongue:

To add to what SS7 said, vet reverence is not a good thing. The example of Diaz Day 1 this game is a picture perfect example of someone's "Vet" status saving them. I guarantee if someone that hasn't signed up as many times as Diaz had done what Diaz did, that player would've been dead. It's not good for the metagame in any way. Players should be judged on how they play in the current game, not by "Oh, so and so could be useful later because they have been in the past, so even though they are playing terribly, we should keep them". It's not a good attitude to have and leads to serious issues in the new player department.

P.S. Don't worry KP. It was just a role. I actually love Piplup and I like you as a friend still. No hard feelings?

As I've said, no hard feelings. :thumb:

 

[ProHawk]

To add to what SS7 said, vet reverence is not a good thing. The example of Diaz Day 1 this game is a picture perfect example of someone's "Vet" status saving them. I guarantee if someone that hasn't signed up as many times as Diaz had done what Diaz did, that player would've been dead. It's not good for the metagame in any way. Players should be judged on how they play in the current game, not by "Oh, so and so could be useful later because they have been in the past, so even though they are playing terribly, we should keep them". It's not a good attitude to have and leads to serious issues in the new player department.



As I've said, no hard feelings. :thumb:

If we continue to talk about how Diaz was "saved" due to vet reverence, we also need to discuss how PMysterious was saved due to the exact opposite, new player pity.

 

[King Piplup]

If we continue to talk about how Diaz was "saved" due to vet reverence, we also need to discuss how PMysterious was saved due to the exact opposite, new player pity.

Also true and a valid point, something an anon-game would prevent.

 

[Diaz]

I think we should also note that vet reverence alplies mostly to vets who have played well in the past. I don't think it is wrong of players to say: x player was good last few games, they are likely to be good this game. Also, I would be ok with players saying: x player was bad last few games, they are likely to be bad this game. In my first WW game, I suggested the opposite of vet reverence: "lets lynch a vet day 1". I was shot down harder than I've ever seen anyone shot down.

 

[cabd]

It's a good idea in theory, but then *everyone* who signs up would have to have a new username and the signups would have to be hidden information so you can't match posts from previous games to said good players.

The only solutions are completely anonymous games with a hidden player list (which still wouldn't work all too well), or the new players don't do stupid things.:tongue:

My anon beta test says otherwise. The player signup sheet was public, and only two guesses of around 30 have been right.

 

[Cardzmaster2004]

SO glad to see someone make this post and I really didn't want it to be me. I know I'd talked with SS about this at least once I believe I discussed this with Ikrit as well. Regardless, a few response:

1) I MAJORLY agree with the Vet Reverence issues. I hate to say it, but I'm a MUCH worse player than I was when I won in WWII or when I played after that as Espeon. The fact that I get that much respect but make horrendous play decisions shows that our view of Vets needs to change and I'm glad that I'm starting to see that change being taken up.

2) I did introduce co-modding in this game as a way for there to be a second check and set of eyes on a game AND to take up the game if need be. I had access to ALL the roles pre-game and had a chance to make input on the roles A/AM eventually chose to use. I also had the full list of who had what role. But, beyond that, my job was to sit back , follow the game, and let A/AM mod unless he contacted me with a need.

I know some players also contacted me during the game when Vote updates were not being taken care of and I don't mind doing that. But saying that vote counts "do not take long to do" is a bit off. Most vote updates I do when I get in from work usually take about a half-hour to write because of everything thats gone on. And when I'm usually not getting in as of recently until around 8 pm for work after going to be at midnight, some updates can take upwards of an hour.

However, I do think co-mods should be carried over to subsequent games as this is a HUGELY helpful tool and would have been MORE than happy to utilize this in a few games (VII and XIII come to mind).

3) Day/Night posts are also time consuming, but that's because we, as mods, are also responsible for the story-telling to keep you all invested in the story. Absol, A/AM, I, and pretty much every mod take these stories seriously though we may have been a bit over-the-top on a few. I, personally, am cutting back a bit on the storytelling in my next game, but my next game lends itself well to that. Hopefully future mods will strike the balance well on this storytelling aspect of the game.

4) Roles. Oh boy...

I do agree that balance is a big issue that I, as a Mod, fight EVERY game. However, I do think that balance isn't just a number as listed in the MafiaScum forums. My balance is between Town and Non-Town roles. Therefore, I lump Wolves, indies, and unlaigned players in the group. Does this underpower the Wolves? In all games I've done after, I'd say, WW X, yes. Have other games been there earlier? Yes. Will i fix this more towards the Wolves side in the future?

I dunno.

Wolf balance is tough and I will probably give the Wolves some PRs in the future. But I'm also a fairly strong person in the use of Indies in a game and I think THAT should be addressed before the Wolf issue is taken care of.

On Seers and Seer-Like roles: There have been WAY too many and I've mentioned this a couple times to mods seeking help. But their games are their games and they have final call on this. I don't think the Voguer I made a few games ago was inherently broken, BUT I do think I made his percentage a hair higher than it should have been.

5) On Vanillas: I have vanillas in all my games.

Do they explicitly state they are vanilla or have no role? Rarely ever.

Why? Because, as stated earlier in the discussion, no one LIKES being a vanilla. So, my vanilla roles usually have some very low-quality ability with 20-25% success rates that only trigger in SPECIFIC circumstances or could gain an ability if three different things happen at the perfect time. These corner-case roles keep players playing even if it appears their role is doing nothing.

Players are more likely to continue playing if they think that they'll have SOMETHING special to their role. If not, there are a huge amount of drops that occur and sometimes its hard to find replacements. This was one of my major concerns around WW VII and X but we may have a large enough community now that we may want to go back to pure vanilla roles. I'm toying with the idea for my next game, but I'm not sure if I'll take that route.

6) I'm really looking forward to the next game. Knowing who's at the helm of the next game and seeing who's written this topic gives me encouragement that the next game may be one of the best and most balanced on the Gym. Only time will tell. I'll see you all then!

~Cardz.

 

[Benzo]

I will say a few things.

Rudeness: People need to keep in mind the rules of the Pokegym site FIRST in regards to what is appropriate behavior that is allowed on this site. Excessive rudeness by a player in the game should not spoil or set a mood that is lingering to the point that players want to quit or never play again.

Noob or vets- I personally do not look at other games to see who does what, how they played, or what side (or indie) or how the game's design or who hosted what- all of that needs to go out the window for each new game.

Roles: I think it is important to have at least something for the player to have, either during the day phase or the night phase, or to be able to interact with another/other player. I would easily get bored with a role like this:

"Pokemon Trainer: You like to battle and are working on obtaining your last badge.

Win condition: Town wins."

If I was that player, and got targeted with a power role that even hindered my ability to even vote or post- why play?

 

[Pikamaster]

5) On Vanillas: I have vanillas in all my games.

Do they explicitly state they are vanilla or have no role? Rarely ever.

Why? Because, as stated earlier in the discussion, no one LIKES being a vanilla. So, my vanilla roles usually have some very low-quality ability with 20-25% success rates that only trigger in SPECIFIC circumstances or could gain an ability if three different things happen at the perfect time. These corner-case roles keep players playing even if it appears their role is doing nothing.

Players are more likely to continue playing if they think that they'll have SOMETHING special to their role. If not, there are a huge amount of drops that occur and sometimes its hard to find replacements. This was one of my major concerns around WW VII and X but we may have a large enough community now that we may want to go back to pure vanilla roles. I'm toying with the idea for my next game, but I'm not sure if I'll take that route.

I disagree. When a player has a pure vanilla role, or even just a speech restriction and nothing else (Imakuni?/WW X :wink, the pleasure of playing is detracted somewhat. When my role ran out of uses in Luc EX's last game, I tried to make myself the biggest meat shield possible. Now what if everyone started doing that?

No, instead of Vanilla roles, I think the mods need to be more creative with roles. Instead of making someone a priest/seer/whatever, why not think up some new role that has some benefit, but isn't investigative? Or protective? There are plenty of options out there for roles that could help the town, or even the wolves if used wrong, that are off of the beaten path. Absoltrainer does a good job at this. Instead of just smacking people with the do nothing roles, roles should become more intricate while not necessarily being an absolute help to the town.

 

[King Piplup]

Vanilla's are needed to keep mass claim from happening.

 

[Sandslash7]

SO glad to see someone make this post and I really didn't want it to be me. I know I'd talked with SS about this at least once I believe I discussed this with Ikrit as well. Regardless, a few response:

1) I MAJORLY agree with the Vet Reverence issues. I hate to say it, but I'm a MUCH worse player than I was when I won in WWII or when I played after that as Espeon. The fact that I get that much respect but make horrendous play decisions shows that our view of Vets needs to change and I'm glad that I'm starting to see that change being taken up.

2) I did introduce co-modding in this game as a way for there to be a second check and set of eyes on a game AND to take up the game if need be. I had access to ALL the roles pre-game and had a chance to make input on the roles A/AM eventually chose to use. I also had the full list of who had what role. But, beyond that, my job was to sit back , follow the game, and let A/AM mod unless he contacted me with a need.

I know some players also contacted me during the game when Vote updates were not being taken care of and I don't mind doing that. But saying that vote counts "do not take long to do" is a bit off. Most vote updates I do when I get in from work usually take about a half-hour to write because of everything thats gone on. And when I'm usually not getting in as of recently until around 8 pm for work after going to be at midnight, some updates can take upwards of an hour.

However, I do think co-mods should be carried over to subsequent games as this is a HUGELY helpful tool and would have been MORE than happy to utilize this in a few games (VII and XIII come to mind).

3) Day/Night posts are also time consuming, but that's because we, as mods, are also responsible for the story-telling to keep you all invested in the story. Absol, A/AM, I, and pretty much every mod take these stories seriously though we may have been a bit over-the-top on a few. I, personally, am cutting back a bit on the storytelling in my next game, but my next game lends itself well to that. Hopefully future mods will strike the balance well on this storytelling aspect of the game.

4) Roles. Oh boy...

I do agree that balance is a big issue that I, as a Mod, fight EVERY game. However, I do think that balance isn't just a number as listed in the MafiaScum forums. My balance is between Town and Non-Town roles. Therefore, I lump Wolves, indies, and unlaigned players in the group. Does this underpower the Wolves? In all games I've done after, I'd say, WW X, yes. Have other games been there earlier? Yes. Will i fix this more towards the Wolves side in the future?

I dunno.

Wolf balance is tough and I will probably give the Wolves some PRs in the future. But I'm also a fairly strong person in the use of Indies in a game and I think THAT should be addressed before the Wolf issue is taken care of.

On Seers and Seer-Like roles: There have been WAY too many and I've mentioned this a couple times to mods seeking help. But their games are their games and they have final call on this. I don't think the Voguer I made a few games ago was inherently broken, BUT I do think I made his percentage a hair higher than it should have been.

5) On Vanillas: I have vanillas in all my games.

Do they explicitly state they are vanilla or have no role? Rarely ever.

Why? Because, as stated earlier in the discussion, no one LIKES being a vanilla. So, my vanilla roles usually have some very low-quality ability with 20-25% success rates that only trigger in SPECIFIC circumstances or could gain an ability if three different things happen at the perfect time. These corner-case roles keep players playing even if it appears their role is doing nothing.

Players are more likely to continue playing if they think that they'll have SOMETHING special to their role. If not, there are a huge amount of drops that occur and sometimes its hard to find replacements. This was one of my major concerns around WW VII and X but we may have a large enough community now that we may want to go back to pure vanilla roles. I'm toying with the idea for my next game, but I'm not sure if I'll take that route.

6) I'm really looking forward to the next game. Knowing who's at the helm of the next game and seeing who's written this topic gives me encouragement that the next game may be one of the best and most balanced on the Gym. Only time will tell. I'll see you all then!

~Cardz.

Cardz ~ I'm so glad that you've noticed these same things. (I also want to apologize for the few digs I made at your play in XV during XVI. No hard feelings?)

I would definitely agree that you are a prime example of this issue (especially XV). But it is systemic, rather than only directed towards you or a single player.

Co-Modding is great (and in fact Ikrit and I had the same thoughts before you unveiled it for XVI). I agree that it should be a team effort, even if it is "one person's story" or whatever. I know Absol is very protective of his storytelling, which is totally fine. But the Co-Mod should have access to the roles/balance and other things, and be able to assist the Mod in the creation and execution of the game, rather than sitting back and only stepping in if there is an issue.

I don't know if I agree with you about the vote counts, however. Part of the reason is the length of the game (and unnecessary posts etc). I don't have experience with vote-counts personally, but in my mind I don't see them taking very long if they are done regularly enough and CTRL-F is used liberally.

Night/Day posts I'd agree with. Storytelling is one of the fun thing for the mod to do, and I do enjoy reading a good story. But I would say that the Mod should either say "it'll be up when it is up" or say "it'll be up in 2 hours," and then stick to that. Or even say at the start of the game "Expect updates 24 hours after the day/night has ended." I think that would be very reasonable.


On roles. The problem with balancing Town versus Non-Town is that the wolves should have an equal shot at winning, which is not taken into account if there are a few indies. If the wolves and the indies together have an equal shot at winning than they actually have a lower chance than the town together AND separately. Notably neither the wolves nor the indies would work together to "beat the town" because Day play is always "pro-town" play. The indies would try their hardest to uncover wolves (and get townie cred), and the wolves would vice-versa. Therefore if one balances the Town vs Non-Town the Non-Town is the "faction" that is shafted.

I definitely think that indies should be the exception rather than the rule. Indies are extra flavor and details thrown into an already even game, to spice things up. Indies shouldn't be counted towards the wolves "total" because they are intrinsically distinct and opposed to one another.


At this point I think Wolf unbalance outweighs Indie unbalance, given the data collected.


I agree with the "keep players interested" section. Would I LOVE having a vanilla role? Honestly probably not. I do like Pokegym WW because of Role Madness and such. But vanillas do make players learn day play and increase the skill level of the players. Could there be another way to reduce the town's power while not implementing vanillas? I definitely think so. But vanillas should definitely be reincorporated while other methods are tested/debated.


I'm also happy you are excited for the future of the game. I know many of us are, and that this thread should propel the Gym into a new era.

 

[JewelQuest]

I disagree. When a player has a pure vanilla role, or even just a speech restriction and nothing else (Imakuni?/WW X :wink, the pleasure of playing is detracted somewhat. When my role ran out of uses in Luc EX's last game, I tried to make myself the biggest meat shield possible. Now what if everyone started doing that?

No, instead of Vanilla roles, I think the mods need to be more creative with roles. Instead of making someone a priest/seer/whatever, why not think up some new role that has some benefit, but isn't investigative? Or protective? There are plenty of options out there for roles that could help the town, or even the wolves if used wrong, that are off of the beaten path. Absoltrainer does a good job at this. Instead of just smacking people with the do nothing roles, roles should become more intricate while not necessarily being an absolute help to the town.

Yeah, I like this idea. For instance, my role as Jolteon. At the beginning, it wouldn't have been much help to the town or the wolves. Of course, near the end it ended up because of the super detailed updates being one of the strongest roles in the game.
I'd like to run a Werewolf game someday, and if I do, I plan on making the most creative roles I can.

 

[Diaz]

I think there are ways to balance gameplay and mass role reveals without vanilla roles. I like the idea of having vanilla roles from a mod perspective, but I wouldn't enjoy a vanilla role. I think others wouldn't either. For the sake of making things enjoyable, I think giving everyone something is a good idea. 10% seer is much better than nothing.

 

[King Piplup]

I think there are ways to balance gameplay and mass role reveals without vanilla roles. I like the idea of having vanilla roles from a mod perspective, but I wouldn't enjoy a vanilla role. I think others wouldn't either. For the sake of making things enjoyable, I think giving everyone something is a good idea. 10% seer is much better than nothing.

1 shot Seer/Priest/Roleblock/Kill/etc. instead of Vanilla could suffice, I don't know. Still seems to me VT is the best option.
Oh, and the game can still be enjoyable as a VT.

 

[Pikamaster]

Vanilla's are needed to keep mass claim from happening.

Not if all the wolves have roles themselves. Not every town and every wolf role would need to be amazing.

 

[PMysterious]

Yeah, I like this idea. For instance, my role as Jolteon. At the beginning, it wouldn't have been much help to the town or the wolves. Of course, near the end it ended up because of the super detailed updates being one of the strongest roles in the game.
I'd like to run a Werewolf game someday, and if I do, I plan on making the most creative roles I can.

I would love to Co-Mod a game that you would Mod. However, I don't have much modding experience. Also, I have plans to mod one myself sometime. :thumb:

However, problem is I don't really feel like doing it until Werewolf 20+. So, don't expect that anytime soon.

 

[King Piplup]

Not if all the wolves have roles themselves. Not every town and every wolf role would need to be amazing.

Right, but if the wolves had roles like this past game, that wouldn't help one bit. If the wolves had townie-like roles, well, I'm not sure that'd be good at all.

 

[Absoltrainer]

I got a big post coming, but let me say something.

In all 3 of my games, even the one with 41 players, every person save for a few wwolves and 1 or 2 mason people had roles.
I've said that without roles people get board and detached and do not want to play.

Cardz said it best, but the short version is this: Vanilla Roles are vital and important to balance. There are ways to write them and factor effects to them to make them not seem so undesirable to the player, but for the sake of balance, they are 100% needed. Can they be a little creative like maybe be looking for someone, or have an effect if they do a certain action? Absolutely. Again I will go into this in detail Friday evening after my test. I only have an hour to relax before studying and it's not nearly enough time to write what I want to write

 

[jpulice]

I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at here, but a system I like to use is this.

Set the minimum required to lynch (> 1/2 the population)
Set the maximum day length
If the town does not pull a target up to the lynch minimum, a random player is lynched instead (I suppose no lynch is an option here as well).
If the town does pull a target to the lynch minimum, they are lynched and the game moves into night.

I always felt that this whole, leave our target at L-1 or 2 until the day ends is sort of against the whole lynching concept, and while it does benefit the town, it also tends to drag the game out with conversation sometimes going stale.

I have more thought on many of the other topics mentioned but for now i'll just stick with asking people what they think of this?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. But if the town does no reach a majority it goes down as a "no-lynch".

I can see merit in your system as well with the random lynch. Vote or die....

I disagree. When a player has a pure vanilla role, or even just a speech restriction and nothing else (Imakuni?/WW X :wink, the pleasure of playing is detracted somewhat.

Well I disagree. It's actually my favorite role. It allows you the freedom to just play the game. You don't have the pressure of the wolf team to hide in plain site nor the pressure of a town PR. Blah, I hate being a priest. To much pressure to stay alive to help the town and target the right players. I would absolutely welcome VTs. As a matter of fact my first role in LEXs game was a VT.

-------

I like the idea of a co-mod but and would be happy to put my name on the help list for any of you mods out there. I will post my WWXVI comments in the other thread about the problems I saw last game. I will say the co-mod should be as invested in the game as the mod.

I will also agree with SS7s comments on micro posting. I was the worst offender last game. I'll post more thoughts in the game thread, but micro posting is a distraction to the game thread. However, there is one huge benefit. It is so hard to ISO someone, but if they micro post it's all there to be seen at a glance. I don't know if you tried to read my ISO but it was very easy to see my full posts usually and it easier to get a full read on my thoughts. The posting software PG uses does suit itself for nice readable iso's.

 

[Pikamaster]

Well I disagree. It's actually my favorite role. It allows you the freedom to just play the game. You don't have the pressure of the wolf team to hide in plain site nor the pressure of a town PR. Blah, I hate being a priest. To much pressure to stay alive to help the town and target the right players. I would absolutely welcome VTs. As a matter of fact my first role in LEXs game was a VT.

Imakuni? made me ask a question in every single post. That was it. :tongue:

And if the wolves have PRs, they can claim them. Not every wolf PR has to be specifically wolf aligned. Just look at KP's role. He was a role detective, a very pro-town claim. The only thing is. There were too many seers and too many people were getting cleared. Not everyone has to have a PR that's town will lose if it's not used correctly, there can be a role that's considerably less powerful, but still gives the player something to do.

---------- Post added 07/26/2012 at 07:00 PM ----------

I can double post! xD

Another thing is this. Pokegym has its own meta, its own style, its own games. People play here because its Pokegym's style. If we change too much so it's like MafiaScum, EpicMafia, or one of those sites, why won't people just go there to play? While Pokegym's meta should change, not everything should change. Otherwise it loses its originality.