Prize Increase for States!

[espy87]

This is a classic TPCi move. They get me every time. It truely is a love hate relationship.

 

[Muk Man]

Hello I'm the Ugly Truth.
Problem
There are too many masters, events are taking to long and costing too much
Solution
Reduce number of masters through prize reduction and tournament restrictions
Problem
We want to keep the masters who bring their families to play
Solution
Give the kids all the reasons to come so parents will be forced to support with
Problem
Once the children grow older and change divisions they might quit
Solution
Once the new pokemon video games are released we will have a whole new generation of children
Results
Lose a number of masters, while retaining a solid core of Family players.
Reduced attendance at events lowers operating time and costs. Saves Money$$$
Slight boost in Junior and senior attendance levels.


Are there really Any questions?

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

That's the other problem though, Muk. Can I call ya Muk (I don't know if you pokemon take offense to that. It's an ugly word afterall)?

This prize increase isn't going to bring the attendance boost TPCi is looking for. One of the things angering the Masters is the age discrimination, but the other is the irresponsible use of the TCG budget. Assuming there are 48 state championships (I don't know if Hawaii and Alaska have OP), and 15 regionals (that's what I've heard there is now), TPCi spending $64,200 on the younger divisions. That is a lot of money for a single season of pokemon, and who knows what they're going to do with the Nationals prize support. That number could easily reach >$70,000. The complaint is that this is a poor use of resources. With $65,000, TPCi could buy advertisement space on kids channels like Disney Channel, CN, the Hub, wherever the Pokemon TV Show is shown, and/or Nickelodeon as well as produce advertisement cards to be put in booster packs and theme decks.

I was only 5 years old when the game first exploded in popularity under Wizards, but from the stories I've heard, there used to be commercials for pokemon league on TV. I watched pokemon with my brother but I have a hard time remembering much because I was little. I do remember however tons of kids at card shops and Toys R Us between the ages of 6 and 15 playing the game participating in Organized play (My Mom would take me to league since my brother was 10 years old still). Why TPCi decides to not look back at what the original company was doing right and use it as a guide is beyond me.

As for the first problem you listed and its "solution", I have some bad news for you; The Masters Division isn't going anywhere. The fan base is too huge and loyal, and they aren't going to leave the game, they are going to fight to make it better. There are so many little things and big things that have reduced player morale and angered the largest division, but you continue to see numbers either stay the same or even rise for tournaments. You have people like those at TTC who give their time and some of their money even to promote the game and grow it, even though they experience set-backs due to the people at the top. It is a travesty that they couldn't record the finals at 2012 Nationals. It is a travesty that they weren't given the opportunity to commentate on the finals of Worlds, especially since they would have gladly done it free of charge.

As a curious teenager who is procrastinating from taking a Chemistry test in his online schooling, I do have a few questions.

1. Do you really think a significant number of Masters will discontinue playing the game, to the point that events will see a noticeable reduction in time and operation costs?
2. You say that a reduced attendance of Masters will save money, but do you really justify the spending of over $50,000 to "save money"?
3. Does spending the mentioned $64,000 really compensate for a "slight boost" in senior and junior attendance levels?

At this point I realize I should stop procrastinating for the time being, but I would love to hear your answers to my questions, Muk. Also, I want to know if you'll be evolving in the next generation, because I'm pretty sure a lot of people have forgotten about you.

 

[bullados]

GBA: explain this graph, then...

http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=3247

For the record: 2001 was roughly the year that WOTC effectively destroyed what is now called the Masters age group and instituted the unpaid sales position known as the "Professor Program".

 

[losjackal]

GBA, I don't want my replies here to sound hyper-critical, so please don't take this personally. You just bring up some points that have been recurring on this thread so I want to address some head-on....

This prize increase isn't going to bring the attendance boost TPCi is looking for.

You don't know that. And to be fair, neither does TPC. That's why they are trying this. Dave has said if it doesn't work, they will do something else. You're getting mad at them for trying.

One of the things angering the Masters is the age discrimination, but the other is the irresponsible use of the TCG budget. Assuming there are 48 state championships (I don't know if Hawaii and Alaska have OP), and 15 regionals (that's what I've heard there is now), TPCi spending $64,200 on the younger divisions.

How do you figure? $300 was already in place for each division. $200 additional for Jr and Sr is $400 per event * 63 events = $25,200 additional budget spend.

The complaint is that this is a poor use of resources. With $65,000, TPCi could buy advertisement space on kids channels like Disney Channel, CN, the Hub, wherever the Pokemon TV Show is shown, and/or Nickelodeon

Armchair quarterbacking. But the result of commercials is very measurable, which is what dictates the price. My guess is they need to spend those big dollars promoting things that convert to real money (go buy this video game, go buy this tin) rather than a soft result (start going to league).

as well as produce advertisement cards to be put in booster packs and theme decks.

Admirable, and along these lines TPC has decided to advertise PTCGO with the code cards because that provides more immediate entry into our world of organized play. With a registered Trainer account and some regular attention, they now have a platform to promote other events in real life.

Why TPCi decides to not look back at what the original company was doing right and use it as a guide is beyond me.

I'm giving you reasons above. I hope you can see that viewpoint too.

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

$400 x 48 = 19,200 + $3000 (1500 for each age division at regionals) x 15 = 45,000. 19,200 + 45,000 = 64,200

And Bullados, I'm not talking about WOTC's move to eliminate the Masters division, I'm talking about their marketing techniques when they first started the game.

As for "soft results", they are trying to get more kids to go to regionals/states. Getting them into OP via League is a good way to do that imo. Or putting advertisement cards for regionals/states/nationals in booster packs. This wouldn't cost too much money.

 

[King Piplup]

There were 42 (45 including Canada) SPTs last year, for mathematical accuracy.

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

Still adds up to $61,800. Thanks for the info though, KP

 

[SD PokeMom]

$60K isn't going to be enough to air even one advertisment on a major network like CN...much less cover the production costs for said commercial.

not to mention the fact that it's against FCC regulations for a toy or other manufacturer to advertise its product during its programming....

 

[bullados]

Interesting...

Are there any FCC regulations against a company (such as a local gaming store) to advertise their own services during a program whose products are sold by said company? Basically, are there any regulations against a FLGS advertising YGO events during the YGO show?

 

[King Piplup]

$60K isn't going to be enough to air even one advertisment on a major network like CN...much less cover the production costs for said commercial.

not to mention the fact that it's against FCC regulations for a toy or other manufacturer to advertise its product during its programming....

Then can you explain the adds for the cards themselves during the anime this weekend? (Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?)

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

I'm with KP on your second "point", SDPokemom. I've never heard of such restrictions. If it's not enough to air a commercial on a major network, then fair enough that suggestion is out of the question. But I would love for you to post a link to where it says they can't advertise the pokemon TCG during commercial time in pokemon episodes. Personally, I don't watch TV anymore, but I can remember seeing ads for Zatch Bell products during commercial time for that show back before Toonami was cancelled. Same goes for Duel Masters on Toonami

 

[SD PokeMom]

perhaps the FCC rules have changed, but it was my understanding that a toy or other tie-in could not be advertised during the program tied to that franchise due to restrictions on childrens' advertising.

 

[Hikari_Netto]

perhaps the FCC rules have changed, but it was my understanding that a toy or other tie-in could not be advertised during the program tied to that franchise due to restrictions on childrens' advertising.

There's definitely some kind of regulation, but I'm not exactly sure what it entails. In fact, the reason why YGO cards in the English anime are edited to not look like their real-life counterparts is to comply with the FCC.

 

[FirestormXVI]

Just printing out a small bit about Organized Play and the tournament locations for the next year and putting it in copies of Pokemon B/W/X/Y/whatever would be nice. I mean I didn't need all of the 3 page brochure to understand how to download Genesect.

 

[rileysill32]

facts are facts, when the masters grow old and are done with pokemon
pokemon will be dead. plain and simple. if the eldest group has the largest numbers exponentially
then the game is in a dying trend. its common sense.

 

[baby mario]

^ Is there a TCG where the 15+ age group is NOT the largest?

Or are they all dying?

 

[Hikari_Netto]

facts are facts, when the masters grow old and are done with pokemon
pokemon will be dead. plain and simple. if the eldest group has the largest numbers exponentially
then the game is in a dying trend. its common sense.

Except that, as baby mario suggested, the 15+ crowd are the majority of every TCG's competitive community. There are plenty of younger fans, they exist in droves; however, there aren't nearly as many of them participating in OP. This is why Pokemon consistently has great sales, yet typically averages lower OP attendance than other games.

 

[chrataxe]

I'm getting so tired of this argument. The point of the reward increase isn't solely to increase Junior/Senior attendance, but to compensate them for the additional costs that they must pay for being minors, as they have to cover the expenses for both parent and child. For those of you thinking that it doesn't matter, it does, you try convincing a parent to take you to an even that you've received a voucher for only to be shot down because the compensation isn't good enough.

Children have more expenses and inherent hoops to jump through as they have parents to deal with. FACT

Masters have fewer people to pay for per individual going. FACT

Stop making this about Pokemon hating, or mistreating masters. That isn't what's going on, AND YOU KNOW IT!

Saying FACT after every statement doesn't make it a fact. In fact, it makes me think you did very little research and are trying to end an argument with a declaration of victory...when, you haven't won. This time, don't just say fact, actually answer these questions: what ADDITIONAL cost does it cost a minor to take an adult that it doesn't cost an adult? The only real significant difference is IF they have to buy two plane tickets, which can easily be avoided by just driving, even if it is a long drive. Hotel, gas, and food are expense of both masters AND juniors, the only ADDITIONAL cost of a junior is that the parent has to pay for extra food for one person...is that REALLY what we are arguing about? And, lets not forget, the parent was going to have to pay for food for both of them EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T GO TO THE TOURNAMENT...so, lets just assume the only cost for a tournament is cards, gas, and hotel...which, are equal to both Masters and Juniors. As far as hoops, what hoops are those? The parent has to take off of work? Like an adult master doesn't? The parent has make the plans? Like the adult master doesn't? Lets be honest here, either the parent is supporting the kid or they aren't. FACT

As addressed above, the cost "per person" is actually the same. FACT. unless of corse, you consider it cheaper for the child since the child can take a parent that ALSO plays, then two players get to go on one voucher and the only cost difference is two decks instead of one, which are probably cards they owned independent of this argument. FACT

I'm not saying its about anyone hating, but when their IS a clear difference in treatment, its hard for you to keep defending the stance of "mistreatment." How exactly would YOU define rewarding your worst customers at the cost of taking away from your biggest customer? Additionally, lets really, really look at the truth of tournaments...who are tournaments REALLY for? Honestly, its for Masters...lets not lie about that. They usually have a higher attendance than juniors and seniors combined, take the longest time, have the most judges, and generally, consume most of the resources at tournaments. So, despite the fact that the pinnacle of Pokemon is winning Worlds in the MASTERS division, ignoring them is not wrong?

Take your stance, that fine. If opinions are based on false information, they CAN (er, are) be wrong, though that doesn't change the fact that you are still entitled to it. It doesn't make it true or right. But, lets at least have this conversation with truth in it.

The issue isn't the money for the parent, its about whether or not the parent is going to support their child playing Pokemon competitively. Are they willing to sit at the tournament doing nothing all day so their kid can have fun? Are they willing to spend the time in the car and time away from other vacation destinations? These aren't money issues. And, lets also be honest: If the kid is playing competitive enough to win a travel voucher, are the parents really, really concerned about money? I mean, the kid has a $300 Pokemon deck for crying out loud...AND, lets not forget, it has to be updated regularly for the kid to stay competitive. And, I would be this is in addition to their PS3, Xbox, big screen TV, iPad and Iphone.

Realistically, the issue has been addressed multiple times in this thread, I just want to say the basic obvious thing that seems so inherently obvious, I don't think its been stated: the added prize support comes out to about $60k. So, would it be better used to try and influence a handful of people (the few "extra" winner each season) or the player base as a whole?

$60K isn't going to be enough to air even one advertisment on a major network like CN...much less cover the production costs for said commercial.

not to mention the fact that it's against FCC regulations for a toy or other manufacturer to advertise its product during its programming....

I agree that 60K isn't going to pay for a commercial, but their are much, much easier ways to grow the game than TV commercials. What if they did an all out Pokemon tour that hit "large" areas that aren't "major" markets? What does that mean? No huge cities. LA, NY, Chicago, Houston, DFW, Miama, etc...those are out. Have a few in "small" cities that aren't centralized (by that, I mean places like St Louis, its not HUGE, but its a hub of sorts). VA Beach is pretty big, larger than St Louis, but with so many other large/important cities nearby on the East Coast, its not a hub of sorts. But, more importantly, hit the 100,000-200,000 people cities. Most cities of these size don't get premier events and don't have many organizers and these are the markets that need to be grown. Now, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I'll just give my "area" as an example. i live in West Texas. Most people here probably don't know much about West Texas...so, let me tell you a bit. Its sparsely populated and has a bunch of small towns. From a span that basically stretches from north of Texas, out towards Denver and Albuquerque to El Paso, to San Antonio/Austin, to DFW (just to give you an idea, its basically an area about size of the state of Texas), we have 6 towns that are around 100,000 people+ (one that is actually a bit smaller). Amarillo, Lubbock, and Abilene each have about 200,000 people. Midland and Odessa are sister cities about 10 miles apart and have 100,000 each. San Angelo has a bit under 100,000. And, this doesn't include any of the towns in between that each city supports. Do you know how many leagues we have in a area this area the size of Texas? Three, the largest of which has been there about 10 years and doesn't have anywhere near the numbers some of the large cities. Now, I know the common sense answer is "Well duh, why would smaller towns have larger leagues," which seems pretty obvious to me. Smaller towns have less to do and are easier to get around, making "getting around town" easier. So, if a city the size of Lubbock has one league, and a City the size of San Diego has 3, how is it that each of the 3 in San Diego has larger turnout/population in a city that has WAAAAAAY more to do, is harder to get around, and has worse traffic? Because they get the exposure. DFW area has 6,000,000 people and 10 leagues within a centralized area of about 30 miles. 10 leagues within 30 miles? Really? And, they great attendance! Why is it that each league there can get more than all of our leagues combined? Exposure. The nearest PTO to us lives 6 hours away. If we had some sort of event that "boosted" our play, we could easily spit out proportional numbers, have our own PTO and Premier events. Lets assume we could get our masters numbers in the 40's at premier tournaments locally....that would mean our leagues would've not only doubled in each case, but we would probably have leagues in each of the 6 cities, not just 3, and we could probably just about push premier tournaments in each city. These are markets completely untapped.

What could $60,000 do with a "tour" of sorts? Well, lets think about it realistically and cheaply. First, it would have to be MORE than $60,000...so, lets say its $150,000. WAIT, WHAAAAT? That's a huge difference!!!! Yes, it is, but let me explain. You need one person that is ALREADY employed at P!P. So, we are looking at travel expenses and the cost of promotion. Is $150,000 enough for that? Well, lets look at a per event cost. Lets assume $1,500 per event. Now, that is going to have to cover promotional material, travel, and lodging. Where's the kicker? Have pay to play events. Nothing huge, $10 box tournaments, $15 drafts, stuff like that. "Promotional" materials would include cards to be used in drafts and what not. Have a free league area, a few door prizes, and a cheap entry fee into a large tournament that has super exclusive prizes. What are super exclusive prizes? Playmats, exclusive promotion promos, etc....maybe even byes at large tournaments. Things that cost P!P super cheap but have high secondary market value. Hold it at a local store and leave it up to local professors and card stores to promote locally and regionally, and have Pokemon.com and all of their resources promote it nationally. By promote locally, I mean have local professors hit up local outlets and low costs. Regionally, I mean just have the word passed regional professors who them pass the word on to their leagues. Pokemon.com and P!P have pretty good, easy ways to promote events like this on the national level by posting things on the website, sending out flyers with league orders, etc. Players from large markets will travel to these events and new players locally will check them out. The only real cost for something like this would be travel expenses as most promotional items are dirt cheap and can be paid for (for the most part) by revenues from the events. So, at $1500 per event and likely making a profit at each, its very feasible to have the original $60,000's in "extra" prize support go to making a tour like this happen. And, at $1500 per event, on a $150,000 budget, you could do 100 per year! Realistically, there won't be 100 in a year, but what about 26? That means one every other week(ish). If we assume only $60,000 and 26 per year, that makes $2300 available per event, plus profits, which seems very realistic to me.

 

[meganium45]

1500 per event will not even cover venue space.

Vince